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Why Bother Having Divisions Without Weight Restrictions?


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#21 Bowelhacker

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 08:12 PM

I'm not normally one to talk about someone else's skills being suspect, but that whole Blood Asp vs Piranha thing does make me think someone's skills are suspect... Even I, notoriously shite at 1vs1 stuff, can beat a Piranha in a big mech.

#22 Makenzie71

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 08:19 PM

If you can do it in one shot you can, but a skilled piranha pilot will get under your arms and you’ll never get the crosshairs on him. Same thing happens will all the heavy torso assaults in 2.

The situation is 100% legitimate...the complaint is what’s absurd since it’s a decision you make intetionally to go into that devision with mechs that can’t look and aim down. If you go in with a blood asp, atlas, cyclops, etc and get a piranha you get one shot as they approach and that’s it. Either that or you get a certain tiger player who just runs away and forces the tie.

#23 C337Skymaster

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 03:27 PM

It's a legit complaint, and the Blood Asp isn't as bad as everyone seems to think. It's on par with everything it runs against, and will usually win one/lose one against anyone else I run across.

Honestly, I'd love to duel a Piranha in a light 'mech that can match it for speed and maneuverability. As Duncan Fisher said: "Scoring a hit in the Light arena is as much a matter of luck, as skill". I think a Piranha could give any light streak boat or SRM boat an even fight. Anytime I manage to get myself in a position where I can prevent a Piranha from getting under my arms, it runs away, as mentioned above, and I can't catch up. I'd love a chance to pit it against a Jenner IIC, or a Locust, or Commando, or something. I think it would suddenly get de-throned. I frequently will replace one of my SRMs with a streak launcher when I expect to run up against a light 'mech, as the streak can hit anything it can lock, and I can usually get a lock on a 'mech that's blowing me. It's relatively useless against anything else, though, as far as DPS and managing to out-fight an Atlas. Solaris is the only place I don't bring stock 'mechs (although stock Annihilators did really well for me during the first weeks of Season 1).

Thing is, real life or table-top, if you get pinned against a wall by a 20 tonner in your assault 'mech, you just give a good blind kick, and say "goodbye light 'mech!" I got pinned the other night, and the Piranha was actually holding my Blood Asp against the wall so I legit couldn't move.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 21 October 2019 - 03:29 PM.


#24 C337Skymaster

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Posted 28 January 2020 - 02:36 PM

Update to address the points of other players: I got a lucky shot on the Piranha I fought last night: he backed up enough for me to get an alpha strike out and blew his entire torso away. Still doesn't change the fact that you can't hit it with anything other than leg-mounted weaponry when you stand three times as tall. Whereas if you were able to fight it in 'mechs its own size, it would be a much more interesting fight. :)

#25 killzone1

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 06:51 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 07 May 2019 - 08:14 PM, said:

System is fine.

Divisions while not perfect are far better now than they were. There is a bit of rock/paper/scissors and then making a build work in a off-match scenario is the sign of skill.

So yes having a 60T face off against 30T makes it a challenge.


It doesn't seem fine to me. I'm going up against assaults in a medium. Crazy. 100T vs 55T.

#26 justcallme A S H

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 09:37 PM

So learn how to hit and run?

Arctic Wolf players, while having their work cutout for them, do well against Anni's for example.

It just comes down to skill and using good builds that play to the mechs strengths and opponents weaknesses.

#27 Horseman

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 12:54 AM

View Postkillzone1, on 07 February 2020 - 06:51 PM, said:

It doesn't seem fine to me. I'm going up against assaults in a medium. Crazy. 100T vs 55T.
Assuming tonnage equals effectiveness is a noob mistake. Optimize your ****ing builds, play them right and you'll eat mechs twice your tonnage.

#28 pepe Le Peww

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 04:47 AM

View PostHorseman, on 08 February 2020 - 12:54 AM, said:

Assuming tonnage equals effectiveness is a noob mistake. Optimize your ****ing builds, play them right and you'll eat mechs twice your tonnage.


Tonnage does mean I have to hit him 5 times for each single shot of his. I'm going up against heavies that have equal mobility/jump jets but more armor and weaponry. It doesn't seem like an even match to me all other things being equal.

Edited by pepe Le Peww, 08 February 2020 - 05:04 AM.


#29 Horseman

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 05:32 AM

View Postpepe Le Peww, on 08 February 2020 - 04:47 AM, said:

Tonnage does mean I have to hit him 5 times for each single shot of his.
That would only be the case if you took a badly undergunned build. A typical Solaris build will have an alpha between 36 and 60 points and you need to use this firepower to focus on killing the opponent as quickly and efficiently as possible.

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I'm also going up against heavies that have equal mobility/jump jets but more armor and weaponry.
Most heavies will not have "equal mobility" to a medium mech - see spreadsheet: https://docs.google....#gid=1674340949

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It doesn't seem like an even match to me all other things being equal.
Only if your strategy is to go forward and mash face. In which case there's the problem right there. If you're out-tonned, it's crucial to keep moving and force your opponent to waste as much heat/ammo as possible without that paying off in substantial damage to your mech - only get in the line of fire when you're ready to shoot, and when you do AIM TO KILL.

#30 Dionnsai

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 06:17 AM

The system is fine. You can arbitrarily divide up mechs in any way you like, including by tonnage, and there will always be mechs that are "OP" and mechs that no one uses because they underperform.

If you don't have a built-in way to deal with those mechs, you will either see players begging to ban the OP meta from each division or waves of unnecessary nerfs/buffs to placate those who can't deal.

The division system we have means that mechs can be moved around based on performance and Solaris can be different every season (never mind the fact that no mechs got moved this season).

Look hard at any division and you will find examples of much faster, lighter mechs doing very well against much heavier mechs.

Edited by Dionnsai, 08 February 2020 - 06:19 AM.


#31 killzone1

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 07:32 AM

View PostDionnsai, on 08 February 2020 - 06:17 AM, said:

The system is fine. You can arbitrarily divide up mechs in any way you like, including by tonnage, and there will always be mechs that are "OP" and mechs that no one uses because they underperform.

If you don't have a built-in way to deal with those mechs, you will either see players begging to ban the OP meta from each division or waves of unnecessary nerfs/buffs to placate those who can't deal.

The division system we have means that mechs can be moved around based on performance and Solaris can be different every season (never mind the fact that no mechs got moved this season).

Look hard at any division and you will find examples of much faster, lighter mechs doing very well against much heavier mechs.


Fair enough, and to the veterans, I'm sure you can equalize all this out.

To me, I've only been playing for a month and it wasn't what I was expecting. I honestly, don't know what I was expecting, but I naively thought if I took in a light, I would face a comparable light.

I just took a look at the divisions page and it still doesn't make much sense to me. For example, a WLF-1B is in 5, a WLF-GR and 1A is in 4, and WLF-1,2s are in 3. Now I get that their hardpoints are slightly different, but to me, I think it would be a fairer (and more fun) fight for a WLF-GR to face a WLF-1 than to face say an EXE.

But hey, I'm new so forgive my ignorance. Maybe this will eventually make sense to me but I also don't have tons of different chassis to mess around with.

#32 pepe Le Peww

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 07:50 AM

View PostHorseman, on 08 February 2020 - 05:32 AM, said:


Only if your strategy is to go forward and mash face. In which case there's the problem right there. If you're out-tonned, it's crucial to keep moving and force your opponent to waste as much heat/ammo as possible without that paying off in substantial damage to your mech - only get in the line of fire when you're ready to shoot, and when you do AIM TO KILL.


I actually faced you in one match, you were in a bushwacker. I recognized your name and figured you would win due to skill/experience, however, despite losing, it still felt like a fair match and it was fun. I definitely tried to avoid face time to whatever degree I could.

In my first match, I was in a locust and I don't recall what my opponent was in, but it was a medium or heavy and I was moving around getting hits in and then boom, 1 mistake and he 1 shot me. That wasn't a fun match. I feel like, while I had the mobility advantage, he had armor, firepower and 1 mistake on my part gets me dead. Maybe I was too careless, I don't know, but it doesn't seem like a fun fair fight if I have to avoid getting hit at all and have to land a lot. I'm sure a highly experienced light pilot might enjoy the challenge, but I'm still learning and the margin for error is slim in that matchup.

#33 Makenzie71

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 07:54 AM

View Postkillzone1, on 08 February 2020 - 07:32 AM, said:


Fair enough, and to the veterans, I'm sure you can equalize all this out.

To me, I've only been playing for a month and it wasn't what I was expecting. I honestly, don't know what I was expecting, but I naively thought if I took in a light, I would face a comparable light.

I just took a look at the divisions page and it still doesn't make much sense to me. For example, a WLF-1B is in 5, a WLF-GR and 1A is in 4, and WLF-1,2s are in 3. Now I get that their hardpoints are slightly different, but to me, I think it would be a fairer (and more fun) fight for a WLF-GR to face a WLF-1 than to face say an EXE.

But hey, I'm new so forgive my ignorance. Maybe this will eventually make sense to me but I also don't have tons of different chassis to mess around with.


I saw you in a few matches last night. The biggest thing to remember is that Solaris has NO learning curve. There is zero chance an experienced pilot will take it easy onna new player, either, because there's too much risk...throwing a match to help a new player learn a bit means having to spend the next five matches making up the difference.

The best thing you can do is not take it personally. Spectate when you see an upper tier player going at it. Watch dionnsai's twitch feed. Be mindful of non meta builds...meta is meta because it's typically successful, but you'll see players like Ash or Merata running weird stuff and pulling off one sided wins, but it's highly unlikely anyone else can pull it off. QP builds generally do not do well. Trial Mechs are universally rubbish. If your survival tree isn't maxed out you're probably going to die quickly. Treat every match like a learning experience.

#34 Horseman

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 09:56 AM

View Postkillzone1, on 08 February 2020 - 07:32 AM, said:

To me, I've only been playing for a month and it wasn't what I was expecting. I honestly, don't know what I was expecting, but I naively thought if I took in a light, I would face a comparable light.
The actual intent is that if you're taking a meta build for your chassis you can expect to face a mechs whose peak performance would be comparable. Each Division has some outliers that eventually get promoted up or demoted down.

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I just took a look at the divisions page and it still doesn't make much sense to me. For example, a WLF-1B is in 5, a WLF-GR and 1A is in 4, and WLF-1,2s are in 3. Now I get that their hardpoints are slightly different, but to me, I think it would be a fairer (and more fun) fight for a WLF-GR to face a WLF-1 than to face say an EXE.

Basically, the 1B doesn't have the burst damage potential of the other variants, one way or another, nor the evasion of the Grinner.

A fun story from a couple seasons ago: me and a bunch of people I know were dropping 2v2s against each other in light mechs. I was in a Wolfhound and the guy I was paired with was I think a Panther.
A third team jumped into the queue, and suddenly we got to face a Roughneck and an Atlas... in the Factory.
One-sided? Yes... in our favor. The terrain was favourable to us - and the verticality of the map meant we could take the high catwalks and kite the hell out of the big guys while they could barely bring their weapons on target due to the elevation difference. We did get shot up a bit over time, but in the end we went 2-0.
But hey, I'm new so forgive my ignorance. Maybe this will eventually make sense to me but I also don't have tons of different chassis to mess around with.

#35 killzone1

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 11:17 AM

Thanks guys, I do appreciate the replies, advice and information.

You are right, is is kind of hard to learn the ropes since, as expected, no one will take it easy on you.

#36 killzone1

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 11:21 AM

View PostHorseman, on 08 February 2020 - 09:56 AM, said:

The actual intent is that if you're taking a meta build for your chassis you can expect to face a mechs whose peak performance would be comparable. Each Division has some outliers that eventually get promoted up or demoted down.


Basically, the 1B doesn't have the burst damage potential of the other variants, one way or another, nor the evasion of the Grinner.



Why would the WLF-2 be in a different division from the Grinner? Just trying to understand their logic. I have a WLF-2 that I use 6 MedPulse on. Grinner is almost the same but different quirks and 1 less energy hardpoint but potential for ECM. I'd still say they are closer in capability than say the WLF-2 and I forget which execution was in the same division.

#37 Makenzie71

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 11:25 AM

Like I said, just ignore the scores and win/loss ratio, just learn from each match...or pick a playstyle you like and enjoy and run with it. And a lot of players will give you tips at the end of a match...pay attention to them. I'll try to give you constructive critiques when I see you. The biggest thing, though, is to take it in stride and not let it burn you. I see a lot of players start, have a bad couple matches, and never come back. Every player I've seen stick out a whole terrible season has been too 100 the next, and better the next.

#38 Horseman

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 01:41 PM

View Postkillzone1, on 08 February 2020 - 11:21 AM, said:

Why would the WLF-2 be in a different division from the Grinner? Just trying to understand their logic. I have a WLF-2 that I use 6 MedPulse on. Grinner is almost the same but different quirks and 1 less energy hardpoint but potential for ECM. I'd still say they are closer in capability than say the WLF-2 and I forget which execution was in the same division.
The hardpoints mean WLF-2 can bring more MPLs to bear (=better burst damage) and the heat quirk lets it output more salvos before overheating than the WLF-1A would be able to.
This makes a difference, but I'm not sure if large enough to be a full division higher.
What probably does is that PGI tends to promote consistent overperformers - if multiple high-ranking pilots use a certain mech, expect it to be bumped up.

View PostMakenzie71, on 08 February 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

The biggest thing, though, is to take it in stride and not let it burn you. I see a lot of players start, have a bad couple matches, and never come back. Every player I've seen stick out a whole terrible season has been too 100 the next, and better the next.

And a few things to add:
  • Nobody has exclusivity on a build. If you get beaten by something you haven't seen before, analyze it. You can copy it or preferably iterate on it until you get something capable of beating the original.
  • You can use the leaderboards to check the mechs and builds used by the top players. You won't see the exact skill tree or the exact placement of items, but enough to reverse engineer it with a bit of effort.

Edited by Horseman, 08 February 2020 - 02:04 PM.


#39 killzone1

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 02:10 PM

View PostHorseman, on 08 February 2020 - 01:41 PM, said:

The hardpoints mean WLF-2 can bring more MPLs to bear (=better burst damage) and the heat quirk lets it output more salvos before overheating than the WLF-1A would be able to.
This makes a difference, but I'm not sure if large enough to be a full division higher.
What probably does is that PGI tends to promote consistent overperformers - if multiple high-ranking pilots use a certain mech, expect it to be bumped up.


I think you mean the Grinner vs the WLF-2. The 1A actually has 6 energy hardpoints (just like the WLF-2) and -10% laser burn, vs -5% heat on the WLF-2.

This all got me curious so I looked at the chart (I put it at bottom) and it makes even less sense.

The 1A and the 2 aren't in the same division, and the Grinner and the 1A are, and the 2 and the 1 are in the same division. The 1 only has 5 medium hardpoints and -10% laser duration which is probably not as good as -5% heat.

Other than your explanation of top players using one variant over the other and getting it promoted (which is a player skill difference and not a chassis difference). It's looking like their bracketing of the WLF variants just doesn't make sense. If all the 5 hardpoints were in one division and the 6 in the other the alpha strike capability it would at least follow some logic. To make it even more confusing, the 1B also with 5 energy hardpoints and -10% energy cooldown is in yet a different division than the other ones.

Then to muddy the waters even more, you could face an executioner in div 3, but not in 4 or 5. You could face a Kodiak in 3 or 4 but not in 5. Clear as mud to me. Now I haven't played a WLF in solaris, I have in QP and I'm pretty sure I could perform pretty darn close to a WLF-2 with the 1A or 1B. As it stands, I don't have a 1A or 1B, so it seems like if I was hell bent on playing one in Solaris, I'd probably be better off with the 1B in Div 5.


Div 3
WLF-2 (6 energy -5% heat)
WLF-1 (5 energy +10% energy range)

Div 4
WLF-GR (5 energy)
WLF-1A (6 energy -10% laser duration)

Div 5
WLF-1B (5 energy -10% energy cooldown)

Edited by killzone1, 08 February 2020 - 02:20 PM.


#40 Horseman

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 02:46 PM

View Postkillzone1, on 08 February 2020 - 02:10 PM, said:

Other than your explanation of top players using one variant over the other and getting it promoted (which is a player skill difference and not a chassis difference).
It's both: it takes a good player to play a mech to its' maximum effectiveness.

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If all the 5 hardpoints were in one division and the 6 in the other the alpha strike capability it would at least follow some logic.
The -2 doesn't just have a better alpha capability, it can sustain fire for longer as well. That is probably a factor there.

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To make it even more confusing, the 1B also with 5 energy hardpoints and -10% energy cooldown is in yet a different division than the other ones.
Because while cooldown helps in dealing damage faster, it doesn't help in being able to sustain more salvos. The -1 with its' range can engage from further away (which in turns lets it take less damage due to being out of optimum range for more opponents)

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Then to muddy the waters even more, you could face an executioner in div 3, but not in 4 or 5.
The EXE is an omnimech, with no unique CT hardpoints. Chances are that most players who use it are frankenpodding and thus not benefitting from any of the set bonus quirks - at which point all EXE variants are basically interchangeable.

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You could face a Kodiak in 3 or 4 but not in 5. Clear as mud to me.
KDKs are battlemechs, so each variant can reasonably be expected to perform differently. All of them used to be Div 3 if i remember right - the -3 and -SB were promoted to Div 1 over time whereas the -4 got demoted to Div 4. -4's hardpoints and their locations may be a factor.

Edited by Horseman, 08 February 2020 - 03:01 PM.






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