64 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 03:01 PM, said:

17% is very high. That means multiple jams per minute even on a UAC20.

And so does on other UACs. What makes them feel different, and what makes UAC20 feels sluggish is exactly the Jam Duration, which FupDup and I were addressing but you just wouldn't get it.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 03:01 PM, said:

And reducing jam chance (or better yet flat out removing RNG jamming entirely) absolutely addresses the jam situation. Since the UAC20 being inconsistent due to jam rate being too high is the whole problem.

Again, no it doesn't, it just ******* doesn't. It's just as consistent to jam as other weapons, it just has waaaay longer duration and cooldown that makes it worse. Either you jam or you don't, and you will inevitably jam, and it will never feel good when you do jam -- RNGesus will inevitably give you an instance where it will jam twice or more in a row, that's why it's better to address the part where you jam that lessens the impact.

The problem of UACs in this current mechanic is both when you don't jam, and when you do jam. The Jam chance is just doing it's job when it jams.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 May 2019 - 03:09 PM.

[FupDup]

Something I forgot about earlier was the ammo counts. Currently the class-20 AC has the lowest damage per ton of ammo of all the ACs.

AC/2: 174
AC/5: 175
AC/10: 230
AC/20: 160

Increasing AC/20, LB 20-X, and UAC/20 damage per ton to 200 (or if we're really crazy go up to 240) would reduce the amount of weight and slots you need to spend on ammo, thereby effectively reducing the mounting costs of the weapon. Currently you'll want about 3-4 tons of ammo for an AC/20 but you only need about 2 tons of ammo for an AC/5 or AC/10.

Edited by FupDup, 15 May 2019 - 03:54 PM.

[Captain Polux]

I will still prefer the 2 UAC5s and UAC 10s over a couple of UAC 20s with +1 HSL. The nearly continuous flow of lead is just too good to pass up and I prefer to use all the ballistic hard points.

[General Solo]

HenryFA, on 15 May 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

How about PGI gives the King Crab +1HSL to AC20 first...

Even better, make ghost heat start at 3 AC20's for all mechs

AC20's are kinda ok I dont think they need ghost heat at all any more

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 15 May 2019 - 09:07 PM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 14 May 2019 - 07:33 PM, said:

You keep underplaying how big a role the jam duration plays. Seven and a half seconds without your main gun is an eternity.

But I agree with long jam durations. When a gun jams it should take time to clear the barrel. Jamming is a consequence of pushing the weapon past its limit.

What I dont agree with is the gun jamming every 1 in 6 times you fire it. And I dont like the fact jamming is entirely RNG rather than using a jam bar.

The issue for me is not that weapons jam for long periods. Its that they jam randomly and they jam way too frequently. The RNG jamming needs to be reduced significantly or changed to a non-random jamming mechanic like a jam bar. Jamming should be a calculated and predictable consequence of pushing the weapon past its limit, not a random dice roll.

FupDup, on 14 May 2019 - 07:33 PM, said:

A lot, actually. A weapon's effectiveness is not just about the raw power, it's about the ratio of raw power to resource cost you pay for that power.

no its about how many similar weapons you can boat. thats literally what the most effective build is every single time. people will even choose less efficient weapons over more efficient weapons if they can boat the less efficient weapon in greater quantities. because the net result is better.

what it comes down to is weapons that you cant boat multiples of are not as good and need extra help. The UAC20 needs help because it exists outside the boating meta that dominates the game.

The6thMessenger, on 15 May 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

And so does on other UACs. What makes them feel different, and what makes UAC20 feels sluggish is exactly the Jam Duration, which FupDup and I were addressing but you just wouldn't get it.

No what makes it feel sluggish is that when it jams all your DPS stops. As opposed to using UAC5s/UAC10s where when some of them jam the others are still firing, its only a partial DPS loss. Because you cant boat multiple UAC20s to average out the dps loss from jamming.

Also its not the jam duration thats making the DPS stop. Its the fact it jams randomly and frequently. Jam duration doesnt even come into play until after the weapon jams in the first place.

- World Eater -, on 15 May 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

I will still prefer the 2 UAC5s and UAC 10s over a couple of UAC 20s with +1 HSL. The nearly continuous flow of lead is just too good to pass up and I prefer to use all the ballistic hard points.

most people would still prefer UAC5/UAC10. thats my whole point. And why im right.

the only way to fix the UAC20 is to make it dominant inside its own range band. Then its a choice of whether you want short range dominance or if you wanna give up short range dominance for midrange dominance.

right now UAC5/UAC10 is too good at both brawling and midrange. Or the UAC20 just isnt good enough at its brawling role. Its one or the other. But I tend to prefer buffing underperforming weapons over nerfing weapons. You piss less people off that way.

so what makes a good brawling weapon? efficiency and consistency. being able to push out from cover and doing both heat efficient and consistent damage. If you cant rely on the UAC20 to consistently deliver its dps its no good as a brawling weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 15 May 2019 - 10:07 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 09:44 PM, said:

But I agree with long jam durations. When a gun jams it should take time to clear the barrel. Jamming is a consequence of pushing the weapon past its limit.

What I dont agree with is the gun jamming every 1 in 6 times you fire it. And I dont like the fact jamming is entirely RNG rather than using a jam bar.

The issue for me is not that weapons jam for long periods. Its that they jam randomly and they jam way too frequently. The RNG jamming needs to be reduced significantly or changed to a non-random jamming mechanic like a jam bar. Jamming should be a calculated and predictable consequence of pushing the weapon past its limit, not a random dice roll.

I don't agree with the mechanics of random jam in this game, but that is what we are dealing with, and frankly the long jam duration just doesn't cut it for UAC20. We could argue all day long whether the game should be realistic or not, but in the end it's a stompy robot videogame that is supposed to be unrealistic and have a semblance of balance so that it would be playable.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 09:44 PM, said:

no its about how many similar weapons you can boat. thats literally what the most effective build is every single time. people will even choose less efficient weapons over more efficient weapons if they can boat the less efficient weapon in greater quantities. because the net result is better.

what it comes down to is weapons that you cant boat multiples of are not as good and need extra help. The UAC20 needs help because it exists outside the boating meta that dominates the game.

No what makes it feel sluggish is that when it jams all your DPS stops. As opposed to using UAC5s/UAC10s where when some of them jam the others are still firing, its only a partial DPS loss. Because you cant boat multiple UAC20s to average out the dps loss from jamming.

Lot to unpack. First, we aren't arguing that UAC20 doesn't need help -- it's quite the opposite of that. But if you are pointing out legitimate dakka-boats, why not be consistent and compare builds with UAC20 as the component, not as a single weapon alone? I mean, why are you talking as if we can't put UAC20 along with other ACs? In terms of stare-time, UAC5 + UAC10 is good, but UAC10 + UAC20 also works, and when the UAC20 jams it's still just a partial loss of DPS -- not at the same degree sure, but still.

2x UAC10 + UAC20 Blood Asp

Also, no, it's exactly the god damn jam duration.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 09:44 PM, said:

Also its not the jam duration thats making the DPS stop. Its the fact it jams randomly and frequently. Jam duration doesnt even come into play until after the weapon jams in the first place.

Well of course it's the jam itself that stops the DPS, that was the bloody point. But considering that this is a 12-15 tons of dakka that puts out 20-40 damage/volley, it's not something you could honestly expect to just continuously do so as opposed of a 2xUAC5 + 2x UAC10 that would have weighed 34 tons, hell even if we double the UAC20s assuming that GH was raised at 2, that is still just 24 tons.

And then there's the fundamental misunderstanding of how UAC20 plays differently vs UAC10s and UAC5s, because as far as I'm concerned, UAC10 + UAC5s + UAC2s are more of a starey kind of dakka, but the UAC20 just as the standard AC20s and LB20s, is about doing maximum short burst of DPS with long durations. I mean what kind of idiot plays the AC20 or LB20X by staring people down?

As for it doesn't come to play until it jams, and you are right. But that's the thing, it has to come into play to sequester the insane 40 damage burst out from this 12-15 tons of a beast. Jamming is what should be expecting when you are pushing the weapon to it's limit right? So it's supposed to jam "often" when you are double-tapping it. The point of reducing the jam-duration instead is for quality-of-life, it's power is already good, but the issue is bearing that power.

If you touch the jam chance, again you are just making it worse by making the 40-damage burst more frequent, but reduce the jam duration means increase of quality-of-life and reduction of the window-of-time that you are vulnerable.

Look, I hate the RNG Jamming, i really do, i loathe it. But what you are suggesting is utterly short-sighted.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 09:44 PM, said:

most people would still prefer UAC5/UAC10. thats my whole point. And why im right.

the only way to fix the UAC20 is to make it dominant inside its own range band. Then its a choice of whether you want short range dominance or if you wanna give up short range dominance for midrange dominance.

Again, nobody is saying that UAC20 shan't be buffed. But the real problem is you are buffing it too much, when the problem lies on something else -- UAC20s have insane down-time, that is it, fix that and problem goes away. Reduce Jam-Chance, guess what, it's a whole another problem entirely.

Khobai, on 15 May 2019 - 09:44 PM, said:

right now UAC5/UAC10 is too good at both brawling and midrange. Or the UAC20 just isnt good enough at its brawling role. Its one or the other. But I tend to prefer buffing underperforming weapons over nerfing weapons. You piss less people off that way.

so what makes a good brawling weapon? efficiency and consistency. being able to push out from cover and doing both heat efficient and consistent damage. If you cant rely on the UAC20 to consistently deliver its dps its no good as a brawling weapon.

Honestly, I don't think UAC20 is for brawling, unlike LB20X or AC20, no really, it's more of a hit-and-run skirmishing type of deal. That long-burst is much more detrimental. Maybe not understanding the role of the weapon is exactly the crux of your problem. I mean make UAC20 dominating at brawling, what is left for the LB20X or the AC20?

I'm going to say it, sure as hell ASH will say it -- might as well spare you the obvious hate-*****. You misunderstood the role of the weapon.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 May 2019 - 11:31 PM.

[ObeyTheLion]

The6thMessenger, on 14 May 2019 - 03:04 PM, said:

what if the MCII-B got the same quirk on account of it's loadout?

Not until the KGC gets that God forsaken AC/20 HSL

[The pessimistic optimist]

Nah 4x UAC10 for me I like more Dakka.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 15 May 2019 - 11:22 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't think UAC20 is for brawling

Huh? The only thing the UAC20 is meant to do is brawling...

The6thMessenger, on 15 May 2019 - 11:22 PM, said:

it's more of a hit-and-run skirmishing type of deal.

No thats what people use UAC5/UAC10 for because their superior range makes them better at it.

UAC20 should be a brawling exclusive weapon due to its short range and its damage being split up into 8 bursts which can only reliably hit the same location at short range. In a skirmishing capacity its straight up inferior to other options.

Its absolutely not meant to be a skirmishing weapon and if MWO has forced people to use it as such its only because the weapon is not fulfilling its intended role of being the king of brawling weapons. Because thats what it is in tabletop.

Again the UAC20 should be the scariest weapon in the game. Period. If its not theres something seriously wrong with it. And you and fupdup think lowering the jam duration is gonna get it to where it needs to be? No lol. Its issues run far deeper than that. The weapon lacks a solid design space and its purely inferior to UAC5/UAC10 in virtually all regards. Lowering its jam duration wont do a damn thing.

Edited by Khobai, 17 May 2019 - 07:28 AM.

[Daurock]

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

UAC20 should be a brawling exclusive weapon due to its short range and its damage being split up into 8 bursts which can only reliably hit the same location at short range. In a skirmishing capacity its straight up inferior to other options.

Its absolutely not meant to be a skirmishing weapon and if MWO has forced people to use it as such its only because the weapon is not fulfilling its intended role of being the king of brawling weapons. Because thats what it is in tabletop.

Again the UAC20 should be the scariest weapon in the game. Period. If its not theres something seriously wrong with it. And you and fupdup think lowering the jam duration is gonna get it to where it needs to be? No lol. Its issues run far deeper than that. The weapon lacks a solid design space and its purely inferior to UAC5/UAC10 in virtually all regards. Lowering its jam duration wont do a damn thing.

I think the real question is boiling down to just HOW to make the UAC20 a better, more consistent brawling weapon than it is. There's two trains of thought to that - Having less "penalizing" jams is the first one. Having fewer, or more controllable "jams," with a "Large" penalty also would help, but may still completely screw someone over due to the fact that when it does happen, you're out 60-80 damage instead of the 10 or 15 that happens when a 2/5 class weapon jams.

To me at least, Shortening the jam time does a better job of helping that consistency, because it has the potential to dramatically lower the "Penalty" when it jams. For a moment, consider taking it to the extreme end - a "Jam" that doesn't actually jam the weapon - it instead just resets the cooldown to 0, and the second shot never leaves the barrel. The only practial difference between that and now is that the "Penalty" when you jam would be dramatically lower than today, but I would guarantee that it would be not only amazing for brawling, it would almost certainly be overpowered, due to having nearly double the practical DPS of the AC20, and no "Jam Gap" to speak of.

For another example, let's look at the "Why" the 5/10 boat works for a moment - The actual jam chances of the build are through the roof, as one of your cannons jams pretty much every time you double tap - However, the penalty is so low, and raw dps so high that people can simply just steam through it. High jam chance, low penalty. With the UAC20, the fact that you can mount only 1 or 2 of them should make the weapon have an inherent lower jam penalty. (And, possibly a higher jam chance for balance purposes.) Really, aUAC20 should act similar in jam penalty, and in cost to a pair of lighter weapons - because that's pretty much what you're mounting on your mech when you take the -20 class., and sacrificing range for tonnage

As a side-note; I also think one of the things a bit overlooked in all of this is that the raw DPS of the -20 class weapons are almost embarrassingly low for their tonnage and space investment. Realistically, you should expect a pair of -20 class weapons to nearly keep up with a 4x5/10 setup in its own range bracket, because that's all you can actually mount. Currently, it doesn't even come close. Lowering the cooldown to the 3.25 to 3.5 second range would dramatically help the weapon as a whole. (Though admittedly, it wouldn't help the "Twist and shoot" people that much)

Edited by Daurock, 17 May 2019 - 08:26 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

Huh? The only thing the UAC20 is meant to do is brawling...

Lol.

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

No thats what people use UAC5/UAC10 for because their superior range makes them better at it.

You know, it's not just the range. Even SRMs could skirmish, it's about the hit-and-run tactic, the burst of high damage at a short period of time.

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

UAC20 should be a brawling exclusive weapon due to its short range and its damage being split up into 8 bursts which can only reliably hit the same location at short range. In a skirmishing capacity its straight up inferior to other options.

That's because you don't understand skirmishing either, it's all about a powerful burst of damage, which the UAC20 fits the bill. Even SRMs could be for skirmishing, it's commonly done with mediums or lights that can't brawl.

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

Its absolutely not meant to be a skirmishing weapon and if MWO has forced people to use it as such its only because the weapon is not fulfilling its intended role of being the king of brawling weapons. Because thats what it is in tabletop.

Oh, so we're back to "because tabletop", well this is MWO, it's an FPS shooter. You want UAC20 back to be the king of brawling? Go play HBS Battletech with the Roguetech mod.

Likewise, what will happen to AC20 and LB20X if they are lesser option for brawling? The AC20 and LB20X being better at brawling vs UAC20 on the virtue of reliability at least gives them a reason of use, the UAC20 at least have that 40-damage burst fallback.

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

Again the UAC20 should be the scariest weapon in the game. Period. If its not theres something seriously wrong with it.

You are bursting 40 damage every 4 seconds if the RNGesus blesses you. That is pretty scary, especially coming from a 12-15 ton weapon.

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

And you and fupdup think lowering the jam duration is gonna get it to where it needs to be? No lol. Its issues run far deeper than that. The weapon lacks a solid design space and its purely inferior to UAC5/UAC10 in virtually all regards. Lowering its jam duration wont do a damn thing.

I agree, the UAC and RACs need to remove the jamming, but that is what we got right now, and that is how we sequester the almost double-dps of these weapons, so trying to make them do their job less frequently is a blatant overpowered buff.

And yes, Reducing Jam Duration would have an effect, there would be quality of life improvement. You can't stop the weapon from jamming, but you could reduce the down-time of the jam, and in doing so you could be back on action more quickly, and then more fun, less feeling of inadequacy. As opposed of basically a power-fantasy, jam duration approach is far more balanced.

[Y E O N N E]

The Clan UAC/20 reaches out to 414 meters. That's solid harassing range.

Only the IS one has to go balls-deep in the brawl at 310.

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 17 May 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

The Clan UAC/20 reaches out to 414 meters. That's solid harassing range.

Only the IS one has to go balls-deep in the brawl at 310.

Honestly, I find that brawls usually are under 200m, and the AC20s are okay for skirmishing at 300 meters. But i wouldn't brawl with UAC20, cause it can jam and end up screwing me over, i prefer the capacity to quickly bail when it does.

Daurock, on 17 May 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

As a side-note; I also think one of the things a bit overlooked in all of this is that the raw DPS of the -20 class weapons are almost embarrassingly low for their tonnage and space investment. Realistically, you should expect a pair of -20 class weapons to nearly keep up with a 4x5/10 setup in its own range bracket, because that's all you can actually mount. Currently, it doesn't even come close. Lowering the cooldown to the 3.25 to 3.5 second range would dramatically help the weapon as a whole. (Though admittedly, it wouldn't help the "Twist and shoot" people that much)

Honestly, I'm okay with the lower cooldown of AC20s if you're really hell-bent on making them competitive vs 2x UAC5 + 2x UAC10, however it has to be balanced with respect to 2x UAC20s first.

Lower cooldown is far better option than just a blatant self-serving jam-chance reduction for further double-taps.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 May 2019 - 04:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

IMHO, if you are in SRM range or they can get into SRM range with you at the drop of a hat, it's brawling range.

That said, brawling range and being in a brawl are not the same thing.

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 17 May 2019 - 04:48 PM, said:

IMHO, if you are in SRM range or they can get into SRM range with you at the drop of a hat, it's brawling range.

That said, brawling range and being in a brawl are not the same thing.

Khobai, on 17 May 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

Huh? The only thing the UAC20 is meant to do is brawling...

His words.

[CFC Conky]

I’d just like the thing to not jam on the first click...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Khobai]

Y E O N N E, on 17 May 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

The Clan UAC/20 reaches out to 414 meters. That's solid harassing range.

Only the IS one has to go balls-deep in the brawl at 310.

No. At 414m youre going to have trouble putting all those UAC20 shots in the same location. That entirely defeats the purpose of the UAC20 which is to put most of its damage in one location. If youre going to stay 414m away, you might as well just use UAC5/UAC10 instead and stay 600m away. Because whats better than harassing at 414m? Harassing at 600m.

Again we come back to the issue of the UAC5/UAC10 simply doing it better and the UAC20 lacking any real design space of its own. And again the only way youre going to get people to use the UAC20 is if it utterly dominates UAC5/UAC10 under 360m. Until that changes it will always be an inferior weapon system.

CFC Conky, on 18 May 2019 - 01:40 AM, said:

I’d just like the thing to not jam on the first click...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

exactly like ive been saying thats the whole problem: the jam chance is too high. The nature of RNG jamming just doesnt mesh well with weapons like the UAC20.

Edited by Khobai, 18 May 2019 - 11:15 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 18 May 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

No. At 414m youre going to have trouble putting all those UAC20 shots in the same location.

Against a fast Medium? Yes. Against most Heavies and Assaults? No.

When you are harassing, most targets don't actually know you are there and are thus not moving. That's what you prey upon with a weapon like this. Even at 600 meters, a pair of Clan UAC/20 would still be ripping off components and pumping damage like crazy.

Yes, it could definitely use another velocity buff but, at 414 meters, it would still be serviceable as-is if it wasn't in a jam for 70% of a match.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 18 May 2019 - 12:12 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 18 May 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

No. At 414m youre going to have trouble putting all those UAC20 shots in the same location. That entirely defeats the purpose of the UAC20 which is to put most of its damage in one location. If youre going to stay 414m away, you might as well just use UAC5/UAC10 instead and stay 600m away. Because whats better than harassing at 414m? Harassing at 600m.

That depends on your target, such as if it's a heavy or assault, it's servicable. If it's a fast light or medium, most likely not -- but it's not like it's local on AC20 alone, other ACs would have the same trend, if not same difficulty.

Accepting your point only points out that it needs more velocity.

Khobai, on 18 May 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

Again we come back to the issue of the UAC5/UAC10 simply doing it better and the UAC20 lacking any real design space of its own. And again the only way youre going to get people to use the UAC20 is if it utterly dominates UAC5/UAC10 under 360m. Until that changes it will always be an inferior weapon system.

And again, we have no qualms in making UAC20 a much more effective weapon, it comes down to the approach. What we are saying is that your approach of jam-chance is wrong, the mechanics relies on either-you-jam-or-you-don't. Making UAC20 jam less is too over-powered, because jamming is exactly the way the double-tap is balanced, that is an inevitability, it's supposed to break the continuous firing.

What would make the UAC20 more effective -- since it's already that effective upfront, is make it less vulnerable, reduce the jam-duration. Also increase velocity.

Khobai, on 18 May 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

exactly like ive been saying thats the whole problem: the jam chance is too high. The nature of RNG jamming just doesnt mesh well with weapons like the UAC20.

Yes, but again until we reworked jamming into a predictable one, it's completely unhinged to make the UAC20 have less jamming. It's supposed to balance the UAC20, and making it less frequent means it's doing less of a wonderful job and therefore UAC20 becomes OP.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 May 2019 - 03:15 PM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Aww we, was hoping I missed patch notes...