178 replies to this topic

[dario03]

#LightLivesMatter

[Xeno Phalcon]

Killing lights, especially piranhas, are one of the few pleasures I still derive from MWO - don't take that from me.

[The6thMessenger]

I always felt the point of lights is mobility and speed, and ultimately to use Assault's slowness against them. They can be frustrating to deal with, but I don't see much use of them if they are largely incapable otherwise.

[JC Daxion]

Derrek Weston, on 18 May 2019 - 07:23 AM, said:

Right now, the game reminds me of how the game was within its first year or two of release, in that the light mechs are ruining games. Swarm tactics by small, fast moving, mechs are extremely difficult to deal with and are very forgiving for the light mech due to how game mechanics work (who needs lots of hit points when you can dodge most incoming damage). It is also no a very fun gameplay for those on the receiving side of it. Why would someone subject themselves to being someone else's game content when they have little chance of countering attacks from these nimble mechs?

If this is the kind of gameplay you want MWO to be devs, the disregard the post and carry on. However, I'm pretty certain it ill not lure many new players into the fold and will cause players like myself to just go find fun in another game. If this is not the kind of gameplay you are aiming for then do something about it already. Inaction is having the same effect as the above scenario.

Just my 2 cents

]




The reason is,, a good light pilot is what makes or breaks a match.. Just like a great med, or heavy, or assault.. the thing is, the good light pilot stands out because you think there is no reason why a light pilot should have 500-600-800K+ or 4-5-6 kills.. where as if you see an assault pilot with those stats you think nothing of it.



Just look at end match stats.. see how often that you win, and have a great light pilot on your team.. Be it they do a ton of damage, or sweep in for the kills and grab 3-5 with 6+ assists. Even with just 300-400 damage that can mean the match.

Xeno Phalcon, on 18 May 2019 - 05:48 PM, said:

Killing lights, especially piranhas, are one of the few pleasures I still derive from MWO - don't take that from me.

Play light hunters...they are actually a lot of fun in QP and FW third wave

[GuardDogg]

Example: The Locust

One of the smallest 'Mechs ever built, the Locust was designed exclusively for reconnaissance and quick strike missions, using its then-phenomenal speed to outrun most enemies. In a situation where it was unable to outrun its enemies, the 'Mech did have a light array of weapons with which to defend itself, but the Locust lacked the firepower or staying power to be a true front-line combatant and as a result few MechWarriors enjoyed piloting Locusts. Within its weight-class though the Locust was considered an excellent 'Mech, overshadowed as a scout only by designs which mounted jump jets. Often when a Locust engaged in combat it was as a holding action until reinforcements could arrive, although when operating in groups of three they could swarm lone enemy 'Mechs which became separated from friendly support.

***************************************************************************************************************************

In MWO, it is a lot different. I always had the thought, to pilot a locust (or any light mech) is to do reconnaissance for team, take bases, destroy assets. Never for combat, only if another light comes into contact. In MWO. Witnessed like 6-8 guys firing on one light, and it gets away with no or little damage. I really do not know how it happens, but it is common. Many are using lights for combat, and I have myself like the Piranha, which was made as a scout mech. When using other class mechs (heavy/assualt), a light can do a number on a assault/heavy. Myself done it. [/color]


Baradul with a locust. And the end of each round, How did the heavies/assaults do? (just a sample). What other class of mechs can hold 5 med lasers?




*

Edited by GuardDogg, 18 May 2019 - 07:40 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Lights DO perform recon in MWO, but recon is not something that happens for the whole match because teams meet up and that's it. After that point, it has to be able to fight.

[GuardDogg]

Y E O N N E, on 18 May 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

Lights DO perform recon in MWO, but recon is not something that happens for the whole match because teams meet up and that's it. After that point, it has to be able to fight.

Agree

FireStarter...

...deploying them to support an attack group (with team) or scout

Edited by GuardDogg, 18 May 2019 - 07:53 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

The Locust is just one 'Mech. As a counter-example, take the Jenner, whose mission profile and design intent is literally exactly what light 'Mechs typically do in MWO: to hunt and kill larger 'Mechs, usually in lance-scale wolfpacks. It was also the first light in MWO, which should tell you something about how PGI meant for the light 'Mech lineup to be balanced from day one. They're doing exactly what they're meant to- with greater or lesser success depending on the whims of the balance overlords at any given time- and seven years on folks really ought to have figured that out. For every scout-recon light in the game, there are two which were designed and built for direct combat against other 'Mechs, either as strikers, snipers, or harassers. Including the Piranha, in case anyone was tempted to try the "MGs should only be anti-infantry weapons!" angle. Because that's crap too.

Inter-class balance in MWO is better than it has been in any other title under the brand. For all we go on about the balance team, often deservedly so, they did get that much right.

[Y E O N N E]

GuardDogg, on 18 May 2019 - 07:41 PM, said:

Agree

FireStarter...

...deploying them to support an attack group (with team) or scout

Locust has to be able to fight, too. All 'Mechs do, or it's just dead weight once the whatever "mission" task you dream up is complete because it's a one-and-done thing if it isn't capping. And Lights already do the capping, too.

[Xeno Phalcon]

JC Daxion, on 18 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

]
Play light hunters...they are actually a lot of fun in QP and FW third wave

I don't do FW but yeah iv done plenty of light hunting in QP, but it tends to lead me into a specific set of builds and mechs so eventually I get the hankering to do something 'else'.

[Kiiyor]

Of course. Another lights are OP thread.

Posted by all those victimized by lights capitalizing on all those juicy heavies and assaults with 5 rear armour, hard-coded always on arm lock, target fixation for ONLY other enemy assault mechs until they're deep enough in the match timer that they're facing reasonably fresh lights (i've seen people flat out ignore stationary lights in favor of crippled assault mech damage farming), and complaining that the laser tics they spew into the air and dirt around a light are because of crap hitreg, and not their aim.

[Burning2nd]

Looks over at his Pirate bane's..... Smiles...

I know my work is done here

[ShiverMeRivets]

Lights are not OP - they are just not fun for most players.
The analogy to what happened with light mechs in MWO is this:

Imagine a tanks centered combat simulator/game. The someone decides to add jeeps into the game. Then to make jeeps be able to survive an engagement with tanks they have to be buffed in ridiculous ways. So, instead of armor they must be difficult to hit - make them half the size they are supposed to be. Not enough, so make them faster than race cars. Still getting hit too much? Give them movement physics straight out of Looney Toons - instant acceleration/deceleration and infinite tracktion with the ground.

Now the jeeps need to be able to damage the tanks because their desined purpose is irrelevant to the game. So cram them with weapons completely out of proportion to their weight and volume. Also, make their light weapons desined to damage soft targets be able to chew armor as well.

With this logic, why stop at 20 ton mechs? Lets have extra-light mechs! Or Ironman suit. They will be 1 ton with 1 armor and 1 structure. They will move at 500 kph and pull 30G turns. They will be the size of a pixey fairy and have 50 hardpoints for 0.01 ton pico-lasers or nano-machineguns with a whacky dps/ton and damage/heat.

Now more seriously. This over scaling must stop at some point. Most of us came here to play the giant stompy armored robots, not the turbocharged Ironman suits. I don’t mind 20 ton mechs if they were scled right and had more sensical movement physics. As a compensation they could have more armor... WAIT! Those are medium mechs!
So, I don’t mind if all the light mechs were scaled up to medium mechs.
There is a reason light mechs are the least played class - if they were much more common, many of us would not be playing this game at all.

Edited by ShiverMeRivets, 19 May 2019 - 10:34 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

^ Genius take right there, bois.

[Blacksheep One]

My suggestion? Get to know your enemy. Lights are cheap - pick up a couple, run around enough to skill them up, figure out what their strengths and weaknesses actually are (Two big weaknesses at the bottom carrying them around....) Also - don't ignore them, but don't chase squirrels, stick close enough to the team (assuming they're not spread across half the map) for them to assist, don't go all-LRM or all-anything-with-a-minimum-range or you'll be defenseless when they come in.

I do wish we had a "swarm" or at least decent AI in the Academy. A few mechs that can be one shot slowly wandering across and occasionally jumping for "target practice" doesn't help deal with a fast moving game. Even the ones in the city don't really let you practice or prepare much.

[Khobai]

IMO the problem is the gamemodes themselves that try to equate lights to assaults.

Lights were never meant to equal Assaults. Thats decidedly unbattletech.

Instead Battletech is supposed to have a progression with lights at the bottom and assaults at the top.

Thats why MWLL was a better game because it didnt try to make lights something they werent supposed to be. Instead it had a resource based gamemode where you bought mechs during matches and lights were cheaper and assaults were more expensive.

Its just one more example of how PGI screwed up this game.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2019 - 12:03 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Battletech is also replete with examples of light 'Mechs which were not only designed and built to fight other 'Mechs, but also intended specifically to punch way above their weight class while still engaging and disengaging at will with superior speed. In other words, not inferior units, but equal units- as in MWO- trading off in one area for gains in another while maintaining a comparable threat level.

The 25t Solitaire, with its 42-pt stock alpha based on a HLL as its main gun, and a stock speed of 162kph, is a great example of such a machine. So is, as mentioned before, the Jenner, which (in lore) was so very scary that the Wolfhound was commissioned just to provide a counter to it. Or the ADR-Prime, which with a pair of CERPPC could deliver the same per-shot damage as an AWS-8Q... but at a far longer range, with better cooling, and a TC for improved accuracy (and resulting, unsurprisingly, in a higher BV than the larger but much older machine).

It's almost as if someone was trying to create a rich, detailed universe where the balance of power is constantly in flux and victory isn't always assured just because you brought the biggest toys!

There is ample justification in lore for lights capable of engaging and defeating assaults, with or without numerical superiority. Can every single one manage it? No. But since we've already thrown out stock loadouts (and even if we kept them, there'd still be oodles of trash-tier undergunned and under-armored assaults to toss out right alongside the weak'n'crunchy scout/recon lights), and there are examples of giant-killer lights in every available bracket, it just isn't that weirdto see a Locust with 6xML. Shouldn't be more offensive than dual HGR + MPL Annihilators or a quad-LB10X Cyclops, at any rate, because neither of those things happened "in lore!" either... but nobody expects to be taken seriously complaining about those using the lore card, do they?

C'mon. If you're gonna pull out "but muh lore!" as an argument, don't cherry-pick. We've all read the same TROs and rulebooks, and it's not as though every single person here can't just pop over to Sarna and debunk that nonsense with five minutes' worth of research. For every example, there's a counter-example waiting in the wings of something that breaks whatever arbitrary restriction you'd like to see implemented.

[Khobai]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 19 May 2019 - 02:13 PM, said:

Battletech is also replete with examples of light 'Mechs which were not only designed and built to fight other 'Mechs, but also intended specifically to punch way above their weight class

Sure if you swarmed with multiple lights. Which you could in battletech because lights were dirt cheap compared to assaults. you could often get 3-4 lights for the same battlevalue as 1 assault.

But lights were never a match for assaults 1v1 in battletech. It was only through swarm tactics that they were effective. An assault could easily beat a single light in battletech, but 3-4 lights were effective because half the lights would always be behind the assault shooting into its back armor at any given time.

WrathOfDeadguy, on 19 May 2019 - 02:13 PM, said:

There is ample justification in lore for lights capable of engaging and defeating assaults

but im not talking about lore. im talking about the actual rules of battletech. lights were inferior to assaults in the rules. lore is the last thing that should be used as the basis for anything.

WrathOfDeadguy, on 19 May 2019 - 02:13 PM, said:

C'mon. If you're gonna pull out "but muh lore!"

I never once mentioned lore. because im talking about the actual rule system that MWO was derived from. in battletech lights were undeniably inferior to assaults thats why they cost less battle value than assaults. its not lore. its the game's rules.

PGI's attempt to go against the grain of battletech and elevate lights to the same level as assaults has caused countless problems in MWO. thats a fact.

WrathOfDeadguy, on 19 May 2019 - 02:13 PM, said:

It's almost as if someone was trying to create a rich, detailed universe where the balance of power is constantly in flux and victory isn't always assured just because you brought the biggest toys!

And yet MWO doesnt have a rich, detailed universe. And victory is almost always assured by whichever team has the heavier mechs. Because lights arnt deciding games ill tell you that right now.

PGI trying to make lights equal to assaults and failing miserably at it is whats ended up hurting lights the most in the long run. Because lights can never possibly live up to the expectation of being equal to an assault mech. It was a huge mistake to ever thrust that expectation upon them.

Lights are supposed to be worse at combat than Assaults. But youre also supposed to be able to buy 3-4 lights for the same cost as 1 Assault. MWLL was a perfect example of how to make that concept work. You started out in a light and earned points as you played the game and could upgrade to a heavier mech as the game progressed. Lights were expendable and assaults werent. Exactly how it should be.

And MWLL is very much a game that succeeded at presenting a rich, detailed universe. Complete with mechs, vehicles, aerospace fighters, huge maps, etc... It succeeded far more at that than MWO ever has. Not that MWLL doesnt have its share of problems but it certainly did immersion way better than MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2019 - 03:19 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 19 May 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

and yet I never once mentioned lore. because im talking about the actual rule system that MWO was derived from. in battletech lights were undeniably inferior to assaults thats why they cost less battle value than assaults. its not lore. its the game's rules.

AS7-D BattleValue 2.0: 1,897
ADR-Prime BattleValue 2.0: 2,083

Checkmate atheists!

Khobai, on 19 May 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

PGI's attempt to go against the grain of battletech and elevate lights to the same level as assaults has caused countless problems in MWO.

Such as?

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 19 May 2019 - 03:10 PM, said:

AS7-D BattleValue 2.0: 1,897
ADR-Prime BattleValue 2.0: 2,083

Checkmate atheists!

Such as?

You do realize that an atlas would easily beat an adder prime right? that adder's battlevalue is hilariously wrong.

the battlevalues were super inflated for clan tech. it was done deliberately because fasa knew how busted clan tech was so they inflated their battle values to make sure clan tech didnt absolutely dominate the game. Another thing PGI couldve learned from battletech.

battlevalue was not always correct. because humans arnt infalliable. but in the vast majority of cases lights have much lower battle value than assaults, and rightfully so. picking one of the few exceptions does not make it fact. And the fact is most lights have battle values in the 500-1000 range.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2019 - 03:32 PM.