429 replies to this topic

[Paul Inouye]

Ok... Revision 3.

Talking with an engineer about other stuff.. this came up in conversation and addresses the 'take the stick out of the equation and keep the carrot' feedback.

1) You can pledge loyalty on a Trial basis to anyone.
- You can swap Faction loyalty any time you feel like.
- You earn LP at 100% of normal rate while in Trial.
- You earn LP at 140% of normal rate if you pledge permanent.

How about that?

[slide]

That still doesn't address the issue that people have if they reach rank 20 and then want to start anew in a different faction.

There are 2 solutions here:
1. Extend the ranks way beyond any ones capacity to play or they just keep cycling every X LP
2. Reward a get out of jail free card at rank 20 so they can choose to leave at that point.

By all means have a trial period, but I think we still need some kind of mechanism that allows you to buy or earn your way out of loyalty should the need arise (see my previous post).

[Nightbird]

Keep in mind the only content that loyalists have today is the avatar/shield by their name. Nothing else. It feels premature to discuss locking people permanently.

[SeventhSL]

Paul Inouye, on 27 May 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

Ok... Revision 3.

Talking with an engineer about other stuff.. this came up in conversation and addresses the 'take the stick out of the equation and keep the carrot' feedback.

1) You can pledge loyalty on a Trial basis to anyone.
- You can swap Faction loyalty any time you feel like.
- You earn LP at 100% of normal rate while in Trial.
- You earn LP at 140% of normal rate if you pledge permanent.

How about that?

Defiantly on the right track. It allows people to swap at will but encourages and rewards longer term loyalists. I’m a happy camper. Much better then the system even before the previous patch.

For the sake of others I’d refine the permanent membership reward to increased LP percentage based on current time in faction. Cap it at 140% after say... 6 months?? This way permanents can still swap if absolutely desperate to do so but are punished accordingly via LP earn rate loss. Long term loyalist are still rewarded with their long term LP rate boost.

Still does not solve “level 20 then what”.

Edited by SeventhSL, 27 May 2019 - 05:36 PM.

[slide]

@Nightbird

Agreed there is nothing particular about faction rewards that can't be had by other means, MC and mechbays can be bought or won through other events and by the time you get to rank 20 the GXP and CBills are almost worthless (for most).

Put up a unique "Loyalty Mech" for each faction and you might actually get people motivated to play.

By making it a Merc centric game as it is right now they have basically taken all role play elements away thus removing some peoples motivation to play. Think the epic battles on Wazan back in phase 1 and 2. That was driven by Davions hating Liao and vice versa.

[Battlepickle]

New player's perspective:

- The core of the game is mech on mech combat. It's not an RPG (play MW5 for a story). Decisions need to prioritize games and match making quality and timeliness. Obviously there's a slice of population who care about the colour of paint on their mech - if they want to RP not helping faction X or Y because of a story, let them.

- Permanent loyalty just leaves a bad taste. Who's to say 6 months from now if i'll get bored playing the same meta faction mechs over and over and over and over... Maybe that faction unit i join will dissolve because life happens and i'll be looking for another group to play with? Why render 1/2 the mechs in the game permanently unplayable for me in this play mode? Far too much stick, not enough carrot. This paradigm needs to be flipped on it's head. Give perks and benefits for remaining loyal for a long time sure... but don't punish a player for wanting to experience different areas of the same game.

My suggestion / contribution:

Make the factions within the match making cosmetic. Let my experience always tell me i'm fighting as my faction for my faction... and let me earn 100% loyalty @ 100% rate all the time. Then the worst the match maker will ever have to balance IS vs Clan / IS vs IS / Clan vs Clan for story consistency... and i wont feel like i'm being punished because my faction didn't happen to 'appear' at the same time I've set aside to play the game.

I suggest a system where everyone has a conflict with someone on some area of the map. Deciding who wins a conflict is a series of points for a given phase... and simply having player participation contributes to the relative success of their faction during a phase.

A match might be made with 4 Steiner and 8 Davion playing against 6 Clan Wolf and 6 Ghost Bear. If IS wins they generate 4 x [points for a win] number of points for team Steiner and 8 x [points for a win] for Davion. Meanwhile clan would get 6 x [points for a loss] for their respective factions.

When that phase ends, see where the relative faction points landed and move onto the next phase. This way everyone contributes to their factions success just by participating in FP... and everyone is earning 100% loyalty. Note: Merc's can earn bonus money for contributing their points to the least represented faction(s) when they join a phase.

my humble 2c

Edited by Battlepickle, 27 May 2019 - 06:16 PM.

[AEgg]

I don't think there's any intention to make everyone a loyalist.

If your concern is locking someone into a faction (and I see a lot of those), that person could have chosen to be a merc, not everyone has to be a loyalist.

Of course, loyalist rewards should not be so high that people feel required to be a loyalist in order to play, but it would make sense to have a small bonus for in exchange for not being able to swap at will.

Edit:

Battlepickle, on 27 May 2019 - 06:15 PM, said:

I suggest a system where everyone has a conflict with someone on some area of the map. Deciding who wins a conflict is a series of points for a given phase... and simply having player participation contributes to the relative success of their faction during a phase.

I really like this idea, although I've definitely seen it before, and it's kind of beyond the scope of this thread. Really, to me it does make the most sense that your chosen faction should impact the 'lore' aspect, but not directly impact the gameplay/matchmaker too much. Basically, the matchmaker builds the best teams it can, using some very broad alliances, then afterwards it sorts out which factions get points for that match.

Edit Edit: And yeah, the above system would totally work in quickplay too. Again, not my idea and not a new idea.

Edited by AEgg, 27 May 2019 - 06:22 PM.

[dario03]

Paul Inouye, on 27 May 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

Ok... Revision 3.

Talking with an engineer about other stuff.. this came up in conversation and addresses the 'take the stick out of the equation and keep the carrot' feedback.

1) You can pledge loyalty on a Trial basis to anyone.
- You can swap Faction loyalty any time you feel like.
- You earn LP at 100% of normal rate while in Trial.
- You earn LP at 140% of normal rate if you pledge permanent.

How about that?

Sounds ok but I just don't see why we need rewards to differ for loyalist and people that move around. Why do we need in game splits like freelancer, merc, and loyalist? How does that help make matches?
-The issue loyalist have is once you reach level 20 you can't earn anything more with LP.
-The issue others have depending on the system is not getting as much rewards.

Why not just let everybody switch whenever and either just set FP rewards in one big pool or let players rank up a faction again once it is maxed out. This way loyalist can be loyalist by just not switching and players that want to move around can without taking a hit to earnings?

[Cato Zilks]

@Paul, point of clarification. We have two hypothetical Kurita loyalists during a Steiner/Marik conflict. Can 'K-Loyalist-1' choose to fight for Marik at .6 LP while 'K-Loyalist-2' chooses to fight for Steiner at 0 LP?

Or are all K-Loyalists bound to fight for Marik due to the alliance?

Edited by Cato Zilks, 27 May 2019 - 06:38 PM.

[Cato Zilks]

-Spectre, on 27 May 2019 - 03:04 PM, said:

Nightbird, that may be true, but this thread is dedicated to the integration of loyalists, not the rest of the problems this patch introduced. That is not to say that your concerns are not valid, just that they aren't the point of this thread. People have been having productive discussions for once, because the focus of the thread is tightly focused, and I don't want to see that trend fall apart because off topic things are brought in. Again, I agree with your priorities, just want to keep this place focused, so we can be as productive as possible.

Also, this thread is dedicated to a part of Priority 1 there, in that it is making sure Loyalists can get matches. Patch made it hard for non-loyalists to get matches, but impossible for loyalists to get matches, so we are bringing back possibility, then we can work on probability, then playability, then lore.

So fixing loyalty when there are basic game problems is like fixing a leaky pipe on the Titanic. If this is a "fix" faction loyalty thread that has locked in parameters of allowing loyalists of the same faction to pick whichever side of a conflict like freelancers, then we are not really talking about fixing loyalty at all just reworking a point system.

And to Nightbird's point, debating about how to allow people to become loyalist and what their LP gain rate should be is all moot if the gamemode is only able to get 4/matches an hour because of chronic imbalances in the numbers.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 27 May 2019 - 06:59 PM.

[50 50]

Paul Inouye, on 27 May 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

Ok... Revision 3.

Talking with an engineer about other stuff.. this came up in conversation and addresses the 'take the stick out of the equation and keep the carrot' feedback.

1) You can pledge loyalty on a Trial basis to anyone.
- You can swap Faction loyalty any time you feel like.
- You earn LP at 100% of normal rate while in Trial.
- You earn LP at 140% of normal rate if you pledge permanent.

How about that?

So as I understand it from the initial post:

• The story driven conflicts/events are going to have one specific faction fight another specific faction.
  
• These factions will be from 1 of 4 Sides with each side consisting of several factions and considered Allies
  
• Players may belong to an Allied Faction in one of these Sides and can support the Lead Faction in the event by declaring to fight along side them as a mercenary or a freelancer and will earn Loyalty Points for doing so.

Changing the amount of Loyalty Points earned still does not address the fact that:

• During an event, half the factions in the game and the loyalists associated with those factions are effectively excluded. This has been expressed almost exhaustively by various members of the community.

Now, it may pop up as an idea to simply make the events shorter but this has an immediate problem:

• To make the events shorter means players who belong to the currently participating factions/sides in the event will likely miss out because they are simply not available to participate at the time.
  
• The event then swaps and the players who missed out have to wait and are on the other side of the fence being excluded.

Changing the amount of loyalty points we can earn, changing the way we declare loyalty and whether it is at a player account level or at the unit level will not resolve this problem.

The problem is that the Event System is dictating the queue.
It should just be functioning as an incentive for players in those specific factions to participate more because their faction has an objective.

With every step FP has taken through the various phases it has become more and more restrictive and provided less and less incentive for players to participate.

Pushing further in this direction would not appear to help with making the mode inclusive and accessible.

It's the queue itself that needs to change to make sure that all factions and therefore all loyalists are always included.

[Monkey Lover]

Paul Inouye, on 27 May 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

Ok... Revision 3.

Talking with an engineer about other stuff.. this came up in conversation and addresses the 'take the stick out of the equation and keep the carrot' feedback.

1) You can pledge loyalty on a Trial basis to anyone.
- You can swap Faction loyalty any time you feel like.
- You earn LP at 100% of normal rate while in Trial.
- You earn LP at 140% of normal rate if you pledge permanent.

How about that?

What does a loyalist mean to you Paul? Because i don't think its means the same to me. You can't be a loyalist to one faction one day and to another faction the next day.

From what I have seen you should just take Loyalist out of cw if loyalist can't fight for side A or B under their own flag.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 27 May 2019 - 07:51 PM.

[shaytalis]

slide, on 27 May 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

That still doesn't address the issue that people have if they reach rank 20 and then want to start anew in a different faction.

There are 2 solutions here:
1. Extend the ranks way beyond any ones capacity to play or they just keep cycling every X LP
2. Reward a get out of jail free card at rank 20 so they can choose to leave at that point.

By all means have a trial period, but I think we still need some kind of mechanism that allows you to buy or earn your way out of loyalty should the need arise (see my previous post).

Could we brainstorm some possible rewards for rank 20 loyalists who remain active?

From the mechanical:
Earn that year's Loyalty mech. Earn additional dropdecks.

To the cosmetic:
Earn an exclusive pattern or cockpit item. Wear an exclusive Icon during the following year.


What are some thing that would be rewarding and not game breaking?

[-Spectre]

Tarogato, on 27 May 2019 - 04:09 PM, said:

Forgive my pessimism, but what dedicated units remain in MWO to this day? Almost all of them have eroded or disbanded, and what is left in Faction Play is mostly a bunch of people who could care less about unit affiliation, let alone lore, and simply want to play 12 vs 12 with respawns. Almost all of the people who cared about Faction Play initially... are gone because the game mode itself, you know the part that you play with the actual mechs shooting each other... was lacking.




So you're unaware that one of the only true emergent player-driven alliances still in the game presently is FRR-Kurita? We share a teamspeak and discord server - at least, what very few players are left. Seems kind of a shame to work directly against that.

Tarogato, there are a lot of lore-driven, faction play focused units still out there. Off of the top of my head I can list ARC7, WofD, CWI, iD, CGBI, etc. We are far from a dead species.

Cato Zilks, on 27 May 2019 - 06:58 PM, said:

So fixing loyalty when there are basic game problems is like fixing a leaky pipe on the Titanic. If this is a "fix" faction loyalty thread that has locked in parameters of allowing loyalists of the same faction to pick whichever side of a conflict like freelancers, then we are not really talking about fixing loyalty at all just reworking a point system.

And to Nightbird's point, debating about how to allow people to become loyalist and what their LP gain rate should be is all moot if the gamemode is only able to get 4/matches an hour because of chronic imbalances in the numbers.

"allowing loyalists of the same faction to pick whichever side of a conflict like freelancers"...Where are you getting that? The point is set alliances between specific factions, and whatever conflict is going on, your alliance will determine which side you are fighting on. I see no resemblance whatsoever to freelancers, and I really can't see where you got that.

And on the other point, as I said in my post, the other problems are real, and they are being worked on. But each problem doesn't need to be worked on in every place. This is the place to work on the loyalist problem, so if you want to work on the queue problem, find where that is being worked on. And incidentally, getting the loyalist/merc/freelancer system worked out will also go towards solving the queue problem. If you read people's posts, people are considering that in their suggestions, suggesting ways to switch to keep queue times reasonable, without killing the immersion and driving people away in the first place. Yes, we need to plug the hole in the Titanic's hull, but if we ignore the pipe leaking toxic chemicals, everyone will die anyway.

Your concerns are being worked on, but you don't need to derail this entire thread to focus on something the thread wasn't designed to address.

[-Spectre]

shaytalis, on 27 May 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:

Could we brainstorm some possible rewards for rank 20 loyalists who remain active?

From the mechanical:
Earn that year's Loyalty mech. Earn additional dropdecks.

To the cosmetic:
Earn an exclusive pattern or cockpit item. Wear an exclusive Icon during the following year.


What are some thing that would be rewarding and not game breaking?

I think this is a great idea. If you could introduce some sort of yearly loyalty rewards for those who maintain rank 20 in their loyalist-pledged faction, I think it would appease a lot of the people who feel like they will be stuck once they reach that point, as well as greatly pleasing those who are already sitting on that rank and not intending to switch. If people are truly loyal to a certain faction, and have put in the work to reach that rank, they should be rewarded for staying loyal. I feel like this could easily be worked into the year-end loyalty rewards program, if nothing else.

Another suggestion is some sort of cbill, xp, or something else boost once they get there (though once you get there those things are kind of worthless--maybe some way to earn MC in small amounts once you get there? Just throwing ideas at the wall here)

[-Spectre]

Paul Inouye, on 27 May 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

Ok... Revision 3.

Talking with an engineer about other stuff.. this came up in conversation and addresses the 'take the stick out of the equation and keep the carrot' feedback.

1) You can pledge loyalty on a Trial basis to anyone.
- You can swap Faction loyalty any time you feel like.
- You earn LP at 100% of normal rate while in Trial.
- You earn LP at 140% of normal rate if you pledge permanent.

How about that?

I certainly think this, and the post before it, is on the right track. It feels maybe a little too generous, but it's a good base to start from. As other people have addressed, though, this leaves the problem of maxing out and having nothing left to do. Several good suggestions have been made on that, and I have already addressed that a few times, so I won't add to that here. But I think those suggestions should be pretty easy to simply add to this proposal.

I also have an in depth system laid out for following this that is heavy on the carrot side without being too generous in my big post earlier, but I know you have seen that and have either read it or are getting to it . It would be a little harder to code than this, but it shouldn't be too bad, and I think it will work a lot better.

[-Spectre]

It seems like there is a split in the community here between those who really like being loyalists and those who just care about getting matches. Everyone likes getting matches, but to those who only care about that, I will say this. This game is 35 years old, and many people have been loyal to a faction for all 35 of those years. This franchise is different from other franchises in that its fanbase tends to be much more dedicated and, well, fanatical (where the word "fan" came from). The loyalist system is most of the fun for the loyalists, and, if done right, will not hurt queue times. There is also the fact that the entire Community Warfare mode was designed specifically for faction-based play. If all you care about is matches, that is the purpose of Quick Play. FP is called "faction play" for a reason.

I am rambling a bit here, but my point is that getting rid of the loyalist/merc/freelancer system is not an option here. Loyalists are here to stay, and you can't just throw them under the bus.

I had much better things to say with that, but writing three other posts first made me forget my thought train. I hope I got the point I was trying to make across :\

[Curccu]

Feral Clown, on 27 May 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

Sitting in a group with some of the best players that play the mode and getting skipped for matches three times really makes me wonder exactly what this match maker is doing. Group size...elo, like we really need some kind of idea of what is going on and how it's functioning so that we can do what we need to, to get matches in a more timely fashion.

I think our group of 6 got skipped 5-6 times as nova cats, after that we decided to go play group queue...

[RakiaTime]

one thing i dont understand is, if i choose a loyalty to a IS faction, will i still be able to fight for a clan in a conflict? Or am i stuck with factions in my Alliance?

[dario03]

-Spectre, on 27 May 2019 - 09:06 PM, said:

It seems like there is a split in the community here between those who really like being loyalists and those who just care about getting matches. Everyone likes getting matches, but to those who only care about that, I will say this. This game is 35 years old, and many people have been loyal to a faction for all 35 of those years. This franchise is different from other franchises in that its fanbase tends to be much more dedicated and, well, fanatical (where the word "fan" came from). The loyalist system is most of the fun for the loyalists, and, if done right, will not hurt queue times. There is also the fact that the entire Community Warfare mode was designed specifically for faction-based play. If all you care about is matches, that is the purpose of Quick Play. FP is called "faction play" for a reason.

I am rambling a bit here, but my point is that getting rid of the loyalist/merc/freelancer system is not an option here. Loyalists are here to stay, and you can't just throw them under the bus.

I had much better things to say with that, but writing three other posts first made me forget my thought train. I hope I got the point I was trying to make across :\

If players are so fanatical though then why do they need extra rewards for being a loyalist? If staying pledged to one faction at all times is an option and rewards were set up so they can keep earning as much as someone that moves around, shouldn't that be enough for them to just stay loyal on their own? The people that really really want to be loyal can just not switch even if it is always an option, and the players that want matches can.