429 replies to this topic

[SilentScreamer]

shaytalis, on 02 June 2019 - 10:39 AM, said:

This is why it is really essential that the alliances have balanced buy-in from the players. Relatively equal player populations for each alliance.

I don't see how equal numbers of players "buying-in" means there will be equal numbers on both sides of the queue when it comes time to drop in a match. Not everyone is online at the same time. Queues for launching each match need to be balanced, not the total players belonging to each side of the conflict.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 02 June 2019 - 10:48 AM.

[shaytalis]

SilentScreamer, on 02 June 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

I don't see how equal numbers of players "buying-in" means there will be equal numbers on both sides of the queue when it comes time to drop in a match. Not everyone is online at the same time. Queues for launching each match need to be balanced, not the total players belonging to each side of the conflict.

Let's say the Factions have the following % of players who are Loyalists for them:

Davion: 4%
Kurita: 12%
Liao: 2%
Marik: 14%
Rasalhague: 8%
Steiner: 10%

Smoke Jaguar: 1%
Jade Falcon: 15%
Wolf: 14%
Ghost Bear: 13%
Nova Cat: 2%
Steel Viper: 2%
Diamond Shark: 3%


A bad alliance grouping would be:

IS 1: Kurita + Marik + Steiner: 36%
IS 2: Davion + Liao + Rasilhague: 14%

CL 1: Jade Falcon + Wolf + Ghost Bear + Diamond Shark: 45%
CL 2: Smoke Jaguar + Nova Cat + Steel Viper: 5%

The reason this would be a bad grouping: When IS1 vs IS2, there is a larger portion of the game population trying to play for IS1. Mercs will try to balance it out, but the job is harder than it has to be. You have an even greater issue with CL1 vs CL2; very few people looking to play for CL2, so it over-relies upon the Merc population to represent that faction.

A better grouping would be:

IS 3: Kurita + Rasalhague + Davion: 24%
IS 4: Liao + Marik + Steiner: 26%

CL 3: Smoke Jaguar + Wolf + Nova Cat + Steel Viper + Diamond Shark: 22 %
CL 4: Jade Falcon + Ghost Bear: 28%

On the face, CL 3 and CL 4 don't look balanced (5 Factions against only 2?) But because there's a big buy-in from players for Wolf, Jade Falcon, and Ghost Bear, we need to split it up in a way that the player population's buy in is as close to balanced as we can get. This may require some sacrifices in terms of lore. They should be avoided as much as possible, but allowed in cases where the player population's buy-in requires it for significant balance issues. Mercs will still fill gaps, but they wont be so heavily depended upon. This will make for more routinely balanced queues.


tl;dr:

If there are approximately the same number of players in each alliance, then the odds of there being more balanced queues is greater. This is because, for any conflict between 2 alliances, the number of players wanting to play on either side is roughly the same.

I'd also re-up the suggestion that alliances could change over time, given that the player population's preferences may change over time. And everything about the alliances and their changes could be supported via story. Our buy-in as players helps to shape this. If Steiner is low-population, then they need allies and may seek them out from unexpected places etc.

Edited by shaytalis, 02 June 2019 - 11:59 AM.

[burning wisky]

SilentScreamer, on 02 June 2019 - 10:15 AM, said:

We differ in that you suggested adjusted pay to encourage higher c-bill payout on the side with fewer players. My suggestion was to force mercs and freelancers to the less populated side. C-bills will not encourage players to balance the queue, it has already been tried and failed.

I played Community Warfare Beta Phase 2. It showed that even huge c-bill payouts will not encourage the playerbase to balance the queue themselves. Jade Falcon ran the map, despite 100% bonus payouts offered for other factions. So force balance by letting population dictate where mercs/freelances go each drop. Tried to get this idea some publicity years ago... https://mwomercs.com...not-population/

Maybe i missed it,
the Mercs and Freelancer join always the low population to make the match that is the idea I had.

dario03, on 02 June 2019 - 09:59 AM, said:

I tried playing some FP earlier. There was plenty of people in queue but since we were very heavy on one side my 3 man group never got a match. If players could have switched sides we would have easily have got a match, at times it would have only took 2 to switch at times it would have taken 10 but we had the numbers to do so, just not the ability. So after about 45 minutes we just gave up, and I'm sure we weren't the only ones which just makes the not enough players problem even worse. So I would say not being able to switch sides is a big part of the problem.

So again, the best option would be to just let everybody switch at all times but don't punish the ones that don't. No complicated lock down systems or varying rewards, just pick a faction and stay that until you change. Have conflicts involve all factions so players don't get left out, let faction play rank rewards be earned over again after rank 20. Maybe do something like show how long somebody has been in a faction so they can show off their loyalty if they want.

If you in a lower group ( 2,3 or 4 ) the 12 man passed you for the Match in the quelle, I played the last 2 Year mostly FP and I had Drops every Night ( but in a 8,10 or 12 man ).

[Paul Inouye]

I keep trying to create a temporary YouTube channel and keep getting "Oops, Something went wrong" errors.

Looks like it's going to have to wait til tomorrow. CDN (our web uploader for our web services) and YouTube aren't letting me get this video up. Will have to get the social media folks to get it posted. (It should go on our company services anyway).

[shaytalis]

Paul Inouye, on 02 June 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

I keep trying to create a temporary YouTube channel and keep getting "Oops, Something went wrong" errors.

Thank you for updating us!

Edit: Do you have cookies enabled?

Edited by shaytalis, 02 June 2019 - 12:20 PM.

[Paul Inouye]

shaytalis, on 02 June 2019 - 12:00 PM, said:

Thank you for updating us!

Edit: Do you have cookies enabled?

Enabled... cleared cache... all the fun stuff.

[burning wisky]

shaytalis, on 02 June 2019 - 11:35 AM, said:

Let's say the Factions have the following % of players who are Loyalists for them:

with 2 big alliance system
Alliance Member 1
(Steiner / Davion / FRR) +(Clan Wolf / Clan Nova Cat / Clan Steel Viper / Clan Diamond Shark) 22% + 21% = 43 %
Alliance member 2
(Kurita / Liao / Marik) + (Clan Jade Falcon / Clan Ghost Bear / Clan Smoke Jaguar) 28% + 29% = 57%
looks good as well

Paul Inouye, on 02 June 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

I keep trying to create a temporary YouTube channel and keep getting "Oops, Something went wrong" errors.

Looks like it's going to have to wait til tomorrow. CDN (our web uploader for our web services) and YouTube aren't letting me get this video up. Will have to get the social media folks to get it posted. (It should go on our company services anyway).

THX for the work

[Tarl Cabot]

Paul Inouye, on 02 June 2019 - 12:26 PM, said:

Enabled... cleared cache... all the fun stuff.

And what browser are you using and have you tried switching browsers? /looks over shoulder at own IT personnel /shakes head...

Tomorrow is fine... Now how about them isXL engines not dying instantly with the loss of the 1st ST......???

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 02 June 2019 - 12:35 PM.

[shaytalis]

Paul do you think there are any bullet points you could give for things you're definitely looking at? Super awesome highlights for us to be hype about? Small detail?

Edited by shaytalis, 02 June 2019 - 01:03 PM.

[dario03]

burning wisky, on 02 June 2019 - 11:51 AM, said:

Maybe i missed it,
the Mercs and Freelancer join always the low population to make the match that is the idea I had.



If you in a lower group ( 2,3 or 4 ) the 12 man passed you for the Match in the quelle, I played the last 2 Year mostly FP and I had Drops every Night ( but in a 8,10 or 12 man ).

This did happen after about half an hour or so (and is something that should also probably be changed). However there would have been plenty of time and plenty of players to make another match if we were able to switch sides. There was over 24 players almost the whole time. Sometimes over 24 on just one side, which is the issue since the other side would be sitting at 10 forever.

[Deathshade]

dang. Where did he go?

[SilentScreamer]

burning wisky, on 02 June 2019 - 03:37 AM, said:

That's why I like the idea with the 2 alliances everyone gets his LP and there are 2 parties for a conflict.
Mercs and Freelancers would get the role to fill up the games for the appropriate pay.

example
Side A does not have enough or much fewer players in the quelle = Merc and Freel. get a higher cBill bonus if you drop on Side A.
This systerm must be very flexible during the conflict, but it can help to fix the problem ;)

SilentScreamer, on 02 June 2019 - 06:09 AM, said:

There is a problem with a two-sided conflict which is what to do with Loyalist players. PGI's current Faction Play model eliminated Loyalists entirely by forcing players to choose a new faction during each conflict. Every player under the current system works like Mercenaries did under the previous FP system.

Paul started this thread to see where the playerbase stands in regard to Loyalists. So, can FP be fixed by either
a) finding a way to write a Loyalist into the current system
b) rolling FP back to pre- patch and going a different route.

I'm not sure the roll-back is even an option. So if we are sticking with a change to the current system here is a band-aid fix :
Code Loyalists to always show their factions badge and always earn loyalty points with their current faction. Yes, it will look odd when a Davion or Kurita badge is in a JadeFalcon vs. Wolf conflict, but it will appease players who prefered the Loyalist role.

My more elaborate suggestion is :
-Loyalists choose a long-term affliiation. Joins any Conflict on a predetermined side for that specific conflict based on affliation. In case of neutral affliate like a Liao Loyalist dropping in a JadeFalconvWolf conflict would be assigned to whichever side has fewer players in queue. . Always earns Loyalty Points for their choosen Faction, even if it is not part of the current Conflict. Breaking Loyalty incurs a probation period of 12 hours no drops possible.

-Mercenaries choose only Career, not a Faction. Joins any Conflict on the side with less players in queue at that specific time. Earns Mercenary Loyalty points.

-Freelancer chooses career only. Joins any Conflict on the side with less players in queue at that specific time. Earns Loyalty Points for whichever Faction they dropped in queue for.

burning wisky, on 02 June 2019 - 09:11 AM, said:

that one i Like hadf the same Idea in the backhand

with the 2 Alliance system you have everytime a matches for your ( Alliance) side. You bring every House or Clan who is not in the conflict down to a fill up Group. Sound bad to everybody who is not the main factions in the conflict.

The question of the Conflict / Attack Planet choice, is not clear yet (now it is given and we choose a side, that is bad).
We / loyalists have no choose again the attacking Planet. ( the highest vote wins ).

SilentScreamer, on 02 June 2019 - 10:15 AM, said:

We differ in that you suggested adjusted pay to encourage higher c-bill payout on the side with fewer players. My suggestion was to force mercs and freelancers to the less populated side. C-bills will not encourage players to balance the queue, it has already been tried and failed.

I played Community Warfare Beta Phase 2. It showed that even huge c-bill payouts will not encourage the playerbase to balance the queue themselves. Jade Falcon ran the map, despite 100% bonus payouts offered for other factions. So force balance by letting population dictate where mercs/freelances go each drop. Tried to get this idea some publicity years ago... https://mwomercs.com...not-population/

burning wisky, on 02 June 2019 - 11:51 AM, said:

Maybe i missed it,
the Mercs and Freelancer join always the low population to make the match that is the idea I had.

Are you using translation software to read and post in English? I don't mean to insult you but your grammer is a bit off and what you said you meant is not how your posts read.

[LordNothing]

Paul Inouye, on 02 June 2019 - 12:26 PM, said:

Enabled... cleared cache... all the fun stuff.

its not fun until you have to open the case and jiggle a sata cable.

[eddieb]

1) Let people switch factions more freely
2) As the matrix stands now, there can be no civil war scenarios (Davion vs Steiner)
3) Let us spend loyalty points on faction mech skins and cockpit items.


Really the things we wanted out of the patch were better matchmaking and a little box of story text, and sometimes IS v IS and Clan v Clan sometimes.

[BaronDeath]

I got to be Ghost Bear tonight after 2 weeks of not being, preceded by 1000s of matches being Ghost Bear. Breathes in. Feels alive. Reached G-CMD III and now a Cadet again after 1000s of matches. Breathes in. Tries to forget but can't. Feeling sorry for my IS enemies. Juxtapositioned. Breathes in. Still alive.

I salute ALL permanent Loyalists in the game.

GENERAL POPULATION. Stop treating the symptoms and fix the cure. Create the dichotomy again (Loyalists, Mercs. Freelancers). The Delta. There was a reason all megalithic structures were built in 3s, not the either/or False Dilemma. The Deltas of the world produced self-sustaining ecosystems.

Looking at PGI's "Now Hiring" page.

Edited by BaronDeath, 02 June 2019 - 11:03 PM.

[Appogee]

Paul Inouye, on 31 May 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

Item 1) Appogee et al. As per the post about post patch incoming changes... there's already an incoming improvement that will allow players to switch sides on a per phase basis. It's not swapping every match but every few hours. While it may not suit everyone's needs at the moment, it's still miles better than swapping every few days. We're still discussing internally on this matter and as I said earlier in this thread, it's not off the table... just trying to keep THIS discussion focused on the FP Loyalty issue which is a much bigger implementation than fixing the queue (which can be worked on while this discussion is going on).

Thanks as always Paul for the response and engagement. It's always appreciated. Respecting your request that this thread be able to focus on Loyalty, I won't comment further on the 'locked faction queue imbalance' issue beyond the following brief response...

The 'per phase' swapping that you mention is certainly a step in the right direction, and is appreciated. It would be remiss of me not to point out that it won't fully solve the problem.

As I write this post, I've been waiting 40 minutes for a FP match. The Marik side has 30+ players waiting, the Liao side hasn't yet reached 12. This is the point at which some of us would usually switch faction, to enable both sides to drop. But we can't switch under the current system. So players are leaving both sides of the queue, presumably tired of waiting for a match, perpetuating the wait for those of us trying to stick it out.

EDIT: I waited 90 minutes without getting a single drop, then logged out.

Edited by Appogee, 03 June 2019 - 05:45 AM.

[MiZia]

@Paul while u are at it we badly need call to arms back. It would at least alleviate the spinning time a bit.
Also a ALL chat...that is always active to adress those that didnt choose a Faction

[SVEDRUM]

@Paul. I support @MiZia. It is necessary to make a call to arms. If 24 people are going and the matchmaker cannot start the game, the call to arms is activated and launches those who are available, for example, after 4 minutes. It is necessary to reduce the wait.

[SVEDRUM]

And in general, I hope that after the release of Mechvarrior 5 MWO will breathe new life, and the PGI will transfer the game to a new engine for example cryengine 5.

[Grus]

Still no video?

Paul, if need be, I'll give you access to my channel if you need to get it on the web.. jeebus...

BaronDeath, on 02 June 2019 - 10:58 PM, said:

Looking at PGI's "Now Hiring" page.

That's for mw5...