429 replies to this topic

[TheCaptainJZ]

Quote

4.1) The Faction Selection for Loyalist is currently permanent in this proposed system.
- Should a Loyalist be able to switch Factions? (Remember, the major feedback so far in this area is that a Loyalist would never switch.)
- When would a Loyalist be allowed to switch?
- Would there be penalties of some sort involved in doing so?

There should be an option to break loyalty. I can think of a couple options to do this (not necessarily inclusive/exclusive options):
1. If we are still going with CW seasons, then at the conclusion of a season.
2. At any time for a certain % of earned LP in that faction. So the longer you are with one, the more you will lose if you ever go back. Maybe as high as 25%
3. Possibly the surrender of certain Loyalty perks. I'm thinking camos, decals or mechs (on loan?) if that is possible. Cbills if not.

Rewards for Loyalist must be great to make anyone want to be a loyalist. They should have the biggest perks, but also (if possible) something that can be lost if they leave that faction and would kind of "hurt" to lose. Maybe exclusive camos or decals. Something more than just a number of LP unless their LP level is not just an experience bar but a meter of what special goodies they have access to. Maybe Davions get a 5% ballistic cooldown quirk on all mechs (probably impossible to implement). I've been playing HBS's Battletech lately and your reputation with each faction determines your payouts so the higher your reputation, the more cbills you earn, but some people have so much they don't need it. Maybe at a certain level, you start earning MC each match?

[Paul Inouye]

Video is up... it's on the 1st page in the update post (post #2) https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6262990

Or if you want.. a direct link here:
https://static.mwome..._Loyalist01.mp4

[dario03]

TheCaptainJZ, on 03 June 2019 - 08:26 AM, said:

[font=HelveticaNeue-Light,]

There should be an option to break loyalty. I can think of a couple options to do this (not necessarily inclusive/exclusive options):
1. If we are still going with CW seasons, then at the conclusion of a season.
2. At any time for a certain % of earned LP in that faction. So the longer you are with one, the more you will lose if you ever go back. Maybe as high as 25%
3. Possibly the surrender of certain Loyalty perks. I'm thinking camos, decals or mechs (on loan?) if that is possible. Cbills if not.

Rewards for Loyalist must be great to make anyone want to be a loyalist. [b]They should have the biggest perks, but also (if possible) something that can be lost if they leave that faction and would kind of "hurt" to lose. Maybe exclusive camos or decals. Something more than just a number of LP unless their LP level is not just an experience bar but a meter of what special goodies they have access to. Maybe Davions get a 5% ballistic cooldown quirk on all mechs (probably impossible to implement). I've been playing HBS's Battletech lately and your reputation with each faction determines your payouts so the higher your reputation, the more cbills you earn, but some people have so much they don't need it. Maybe at a certain level, you start earning MC each match?

Why? How does encouraging players to become loyalist help the game? How does letting loyalist pay to not be loyalist help the game?

[dario03]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Video is up... it's on the 1st page in the update post (post #2) https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6262990

Or if you want.. a direct link here:
https://static.mwome..._Loyalist01.mp4

Seems ok, I like the easy switching of non permanents. Though I still don't see why a system of varying rewards and permanent in game contracts is needed. It also doesn't fix the rank 20 for permanent loyalists issue..

-Can the non-permanent loyalists switch anytime or is there certain times and/or contract lengths?
-Why encourage players early on to be permanent loyalists with a LP bonus?
-Why later punish them by not having anything after rank 20 making that extra LP gain meaningless?
-Will there be an out for permanents or rewards after rank 20?

Edited by dario03, 03 June 2019 - 10:08 AM.

[Nightbird]

Don't make permanent loyalty a thing if there is no rewards past rank 20. That's all stick no carrot.

Also, temporary loyalty = mercenary. Might as well get rid of the merc ladder altogether again and let people earn LP as mercs...

[SilentScreamer]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Video is up... it's on the 1st page in the update post (post #2) https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6262990

Or if you want.. a direct link here:
https://static.mwome..._Loyalist01.mp4

Thanks for posting the direct link Paul. Video came through fine on my tablet. As far as video content goes, it does explain the Loyalist concept you posted earlier in the thread.

[Deathshade]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Video is up... it's on the 1st page in the update post (post #2) https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6262990

Or if you want.. a direct link here:
https://static.mwome..._Loyalist01.mp4

So what do we do with all these LP me or my unit earns? Is it strictly to achieve rank 20 and get its rewards?

Why not start talking about persistence in the game? I have way more LP then the other unit or player I am fighting. How does that benefit my unit or faction in the battle?

Lets start to look at what is on the table in the game currently:
Faction, Solaris and QP maps.
Too many mechs as Russ put it.
Game modes that have these types of assets:
Information Warfare: Radar sites, battery sites, Jammers, Rewards from Scouting wins (Enemy ID, etc..)
Offense: Turrets, Planetary Long Tom of DOOM, Drop Decks (Meaning additional drop weights i.e. 500 instead of 465)
Defense: Destructible Walls, Gates with Generators, Generators for the Planetary Assault Gun or other assets as needed. Used to have A mech to escort. Lots and lots of objects that hinder mechs' free movement.
Base: Radar, Jammer, destructible base elements.

Now if you want persistence you can have LP that effect all these values above. It is sort of broad generalization but that is for a reason. We want it to reuse the development we have already seen in the build. Less dev work needed, faster turn around. That being said, it is not a stretch to adjust how much or how little the assets above exist in the battles that take place. You should be able to imagine how LP could swing the direction of battle.

Now we get to what has killed this game from the start. "Well Deathshade, that means that one team will focus their efforts and make this one sided." or "People will game the system in their favor."

Of course they will. Players want to win and do it at any means possible. They want to see the battlefield littered with their enemies. It is frigging WAR, it is going to be like that. We aren't playing chess or some other boring game that is balanced and predictable. You want players to play but all we have done is restrict that due to the "tryhards" trying hard. But that brings competition because someone has to knock them off their high horse. Just think about it . . .

Edited by Deathshade, 03 June 2019 - 01:19 PM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Video is up... it's on the 1st page in the update post (post #2) https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6262990

Or if you want.. a direct link here:
https://static.mwome..._Loyalist01.mp4

sounds sound.
now, before you put more work into this and the details, can we have a few things we need right now to be implemented?

-change the timer for when a match is found from 60seconds to maybe 90 or even 120. 60sec is just not enough time.
this can be done with a quick numbers change, right? so pls.. throw us a bone here.

-can we have a way to change faction on the fly right now? don't care for the cbills OR the loyalty points, we just wanna get matches. it is WAY easier when we can adjust for example from 3vs45 to ideally 24vs24. people are leaving cause we don't get any matches.


thx.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 03 June 2019 - 02:19 PM.

[SeventhSL]

Thanks for the video. Obviously it’s way better than what we have now. For example, my beloved Ghost Bears came up and it was on the one night I could not play lol.

After watching the video it seems my understanding was spot on. As per my previous comments, I think it is way to complex and like any overly complex design it will be fairly flawed when we get into the details.

For example. Have you mathed out LP gain, over a rotation of all factions, as a permanent loyalist vs a player who always jumps vs a Merc? Looks to me like getting 100% all the time will be far better than a bonus only when your faction is directly involved. Plus they get to farm stuff from all faction trees while the permanent loyalist is on his own tree and completely stuffed once level 20.

So basically permanent loyalists are still boned but can at least play as their faction again. Lot of work just to end up with a solution that is essentially a roll back. There are considerably easier solutions that don’t suffer from over design but I won’t repeat myself again.

[shaytalis]

What's suggested in the video is a big improvement. Off the top of my head two things I would add:

1) Permanent pledge could lock someone's account out of future FP if they are in a small faction and their unit disbands. I think that even for "permanent pledges" there should be an escape clause, but a costly one.

2) Make sure the proposed alliances have relatively balanced support in terms of number of players. If there are too many players for one alliance, it will become harder to get matches to happen. (IE: 100 Jade Falcon alliance players with only 12 Wolf alliance players to fight against them).

I particularly like that the proposal does not seem to prevent a person from playing FP regardless of who is up in the queue. You might not earn as much LP, but you can play.

Edited by shaytalis, 03 June 2019 - 05:16 PM.

[Paul Inouye]

A note about "Permanent Pledge to a Faction". I'm hearing you.. permanent is not good... however, there should be SOMETHING that makes swapping from a dedicated loyalist to another Faction something that should be a major decision on you the player. I'm not saying a kabillion CBills or you lose all your LP.... I need to find out what's acceptable for a 'punishment' when swapping Factions as a Loyalist either at the 'casual' or 'permanent' level.

e.g.
Someone who is not a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5M CBills.
Someone who is a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5000LP and their favorite baseball card.

This is what I need to know. There are people who are saying you can swap without ANY costs... which to me totally breaks the point of Loyalists. Then there are people who are saying you can swap but it comes at a cost (Help me out with what costs). Then there are people who say you should never be able to switch (not too popular).

[Geewiz 27]

Usagiyama Shugo, on 28 May 2019 - 03:39 PM, said:

I apologize now if someone already addressed this, but someone forgot to ask the most important question before this new Faction Play system got implemented. What about all the players who have NO, ZERO, ZILCH, ZIP, NADA, NOT EVEN IF YOU PUT A GUN TO MY HEAD AND PULLED THE TRIGGER interest in playing in an IS vs. IS or Clan vs. Clan conflict? Are we just boned until PGI decides to change the conflict? How long do we have to wait for a conflict that we would be interested in participating in to come around? What are we supposed to do in the mean time? What about all the players who don't even own Clan or IS mechs? Are we once boned and twice shafted?

It seems to me that if you want more people participating in FP, limiting their choice to what ever conflict you decide to do at the time or kick rocks, is NOT the way to go. Seriously what mechwarrior universe has only ONE conflict going on at a time. If you want to talk about lore there where hundreds of conflicts occurring all over the mechwarrior universe at any given moment. Which is what made the Merc profession so enticing and lucrative.

Rant over, time to go kick rocks...

Well what about the majority of us that play a lot of FW and really enjoy Clan v Clan and IS v IS as a point of difference from Clan v IS? I enjoy all 3 scenarios.

[Tarl Cabot]

• Permanent Loyalty
  
  • Loss of Loyalty points to drop a person as least two-three levels
    
  • Returning to same faction either as temp or permanent loyalist - earnings/points at 75% of baseline until earned LP to max level they had achieved.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 03 June 2019 - 04:43 PM.

[shaytalis]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 04:11 PM, said:

A note about "Permanent Pledge to a Faction". I'm hearing you.. permanent is not good... however, there should be SOMETHING that makes swapping from a dedicated loyalist to another Faction something that should be a major decision on you the player. I'm not saying a kabillion CBills or you lose all your LP.... I need to find out what's acceptable for a 'punishment' when swapping Factions as a Loyalist either at the 'casual' or 'permanent' level.

e.g.
Someone who is not a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5M CBills.
Someone who is a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5000LP and their favorite baseball card.

This is what I need to know. There are people who are saying you can swap without ANY costs... which to me totally breaks the point of Loyalists. Then there are people who are saying you can swap but it comes at a cost (Help me out with what costs). Then there are people who say you should never be able to switch (not too popular).

Something I was thinking about:

Permanent loyalty pledge: First one is free. Changing a permanent loyalty pledge to move to a new faction costs MC?

Think of it like a boost which applies to only one Faction. You can choose that Faction at any time. First time you choose a Faction, it's free. If you want to change it to apply to another Faction, you pay MC to change the boost to another Faction. Basically the same way we handle a pilot name change. Pilot name changes are rare, but accessible--permanent loyalty changes should probably follow that same dynamic.

Edited by shaytalis, 03 June 2019 - 04:46 PM.

[Paul Inouye]

shaytalis, on 03 June 2019 - 04:41 PM, said:

Changing a permanent loyalty pledge to move to a new faction costs MC?

This is the first time in my posting history that I feel I'm not on the receiving end of the torch and pitchforks.

[shaytalis]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 04:47 PM, said:

This is the first time in my posting history that I feel I'm not on the receiving end of the torch and pitchforks.

Haha I wouldn't jump to MC normally, but it makes sense in this case to compare it to a pilot name change.

Thinking about it like this, complete the sentence:

"Changing your Permanent Loyality should be as rare as ___________________."

• buying equipment (~50k c-bills)
  
• buying a mech (~5M c-bills)
  
• changing your pilot name (~1k MC)

"changing your pilot name" sounds like the correct rarity level to me, so using that as the price point seems to work.

Edited by shaytalis, 03 June 2019 - 05:14 PM.

[Nightbird]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 04:11 PM, said:

This is what I need to know. There are people who are saying you can swap without ANY costs... which to me totally breaks the point of Loyalists. Then there are people who are saying you can swap but it comes at a cost (Help me out with what costs). Then there are people who say you should never be able to switch (not too popular).

How about 1000MC? Makes it pointless to try to farm rewards as a permanent loyalist since this break-up cost covers value of goodies up to rank 10.

(keeping in mind the premise you can still earn the rewards as a temporary loyalist with a less severe cost of 5mil cbills)

[Harper Steel]

and how long will all of this take,,,,,
cause if it is 6 months or longer it is meaningless

[shaytalis]

Harper Steel, on 03 June 2019 - 05:07 PM, said:

and how long will all of this take,,,,,
cause if it is 6 months or longer it is meaningless

The plan as stated previously is to work out something tech can achieve within 3-6 months. Currently we're brainstorming a bit.

[Geewiz 27]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 04:11 PM, said:

A note about "Permanent Pledge to a Faction". I'm hearing you.. permanent is not good... however, there should be SOMETHING that makes swapping from a dedicated loyalist to another Faction something that should be a major decision on you the player. I'm not saying a kabillion CBills or you lose all your LP.... I need to find out what's acceptable for a 'punishment' when swapping Factions as a Loyalist either at the 'casual' or 'permanent' level.

e.g.
Someone who is not a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5M CBills.
Someone who is a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5000LP and their favorite baseball card.

This is what I need to know. There are people who are saying you can swap without ANY costs... which to me totally breaks the point of Loyalists. Then there are people who are saying you can swap but it comes at a cost (Help me out with what costs). Then there are people who say you should never be able to switch (not too popular).

Hi Paul,
I have a question: So I'm in Kcom We are historically a merc unit and we used to switch sides depending on queues purely so we could get games. With FW as it stands we like everyone else in game look at friends list, look at current queues and try to pick the least populated side, again with a view of giving us the best chance to get matches. So we aren't particularly concerned about loyalty but we do respect it and the people that are. One of the aspects of the current system that most of us with the mercenary mind set are enjoying is the ability to switch loyalty with each new conflict and earn LP instantly due to there no longer being the 10 probation matches so do we really need a penalty for the what I think is a substantial number of players in a similar position need to be penalised? I think leave it as is for those of us who loyalty hop to balance queue and just do your extra reward for the Long term loyalist maybe? Also and this may also resolve my question above how does being a mercenary figure into all this if at all? And one last thing and I know this is of topic are the leader boards for FW coming back?

Edited by Geewiz 27, 03 June 2019 - 05:15 PM.