34 replies to this topic

[Tordin]

Wow! Alot of stuff to read through, interesting stuff.

Im not that well versed in lore, specs and so on for say... laser weapons or energy weapons in general but.

Could PPC and Gauss have its own weapon class since they remind be of kinda hybrid/ special weapons?
PPC is energy but hit like a projectile. Gauss use ammo but have "energetic" magnetic gizmos to fire it off. Correct me if Im wrong.

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• Beam Color:
  
  Contrary to popular belief, real life lasers range from infrared ranges to ultra-violet and also populate the entire color spectrum.
  
  • I'm not about to list every possible color. The color of the laser has no actual effect on what it does. Color is only an indication of wavelength, which in turn is a by-product of the gain medium. Some Battletech lasers outside of the visible spectrum have an artificial color added in so that lasers can be effective when the targeting system is down.

Also would love to have a wide specter of colors for lasers. Yellow, blue, red, orange, purple, green ( cyan, magenta, lime for the heck of it ). If theres enough producers of say different medium laser manufacturers, like six then each could be known for their color along side other specs.
Not sure if the different kind of PPC and LAMS could have different colors, but imagine a orange PPC bolt! Or blue ams laser spits, frigging rave!

When I think about it I have a few ideas for energy weapons color mod PACK ( could include PPC, flamers, plasma and LAMS too! )

In the options menu for the mod you could hypotetically choose which setup. Now this mod would be best compatible for mods adjusting weapon balancing, like laser, ppc damage, range and so on.. Just an idea of mien, since Im not a modder myself..

1: You can choose to add any color you like for your lasers, before you buy or adjust after maybe? Either one would do. Artificial coloring a good explantation.

2: Cant change colore but all of them are out there, respective of their manufacturers.
2b: Alot of colors will be avaiable but are decided as above in form of which wavelengt is used.

3: Strict hierarchy or Classic. Close to waht we have seen up through all kind of Battletech games. Where large lasers could either be blue or red or green for extended ones? Some where yellow, in MW4 I think bombast laser was purple? Clans laser colors were same but specs were overall better, in MWO theirs are kinda crimson, yellowish green and cyan.

Edited by Tordin, 16 July 2019 - 05:02 PM.

[Nightbird]

You can mod in different weapons of course, but you won't be able to inflict damage like in lore without redoing how armor works in the game. As ablative as futuristic armor can be, the best you can expect is to turn damage (laser/shell/gauss/whatever) from piercing through with minimal resistance to dispersing the energy in a crater on the armor.

In other words, if the top part of the CT takes a hit, the bottom of the CT shouldn't lose armor thickness because of it.

Then you can create weapons not singularly based by damage, but by the duality of penetration and volume of armor destroyed.

A Gauss rifle could be set to penetrate 15 cm (I'm just using cm=points here) but damage armor in a cone shape, and an AC10 solid shell can penetrate 10 cm but create a bowl/crater shaped damage to armor.

Missiles that don't hit the same spot over and over will strip armor thickness over the entire mech, and direct fire has the opportunity to target not just a component, but a weakened section of armor covering it. A component can still have armor covering most of it, but concentrated fire can open a hole in hole in one spot to allow 'through armor crits'.

Do all of this and you can have what you want, a gauss round can penetrate a weakened section of armor with 10 cm thickness, destroy the component right behind that point, and out the back, but a ML shooting 4 times will not hit the section of armor easily and thus might not penetrate with 20 cm of penetration total because it is creating 4 different 5cm deep craters on the armor covering the same component.

You won't be able to mod this into MW5 ofc, just food for thought

Edited by Nightbird, 17 July 2019 - 03:17 PM.

[Koniving]

Tordin, on 16 July 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

Wow! Alot of stuff to read through, interesting stuff.

Im not that well versed in lore, specs and so on for say... laser weapons or energy weapons in general but.

Could PPC and Gauss have its own weapon class since they remind be of kinda hybrid/ special weapons?
PPC is energy but hit like a projectile. Gauss use ammo but have "energetic" magnetic gizmos to fire it off. Correct me if Im wrong.

Technically the two weapon families have their own classes. Although at their core PPCs are an energy-based weapon that fires a projectile, and Gauss Rifles are a ballistic weapon that uses energy to power the magnets that propel its slug. Under the heat system thread I believe I have these as working somewhat differently than other weapons in their respective classes.

Once I get to them I'll be sure to flesh out their big differences. But on the simple end, PPCs and Gauss Rifles are pretty much the hardest hitting weapons you can get in terms of how much damage can be delivered in short order or a single shot. For example in AC/10 there's no cannon producing 10 damage per shell (several are required), but PPCs can. There's no AC/20 doing 20 damage in a single shot, but a Gauss Rifle will in fact do the equivalent of 15 damage. The downfall to PPC and Gauss Rifle, however, is that unlike pretty much everything else, you get one use and the weapon is dead weight for 10 seconds. If you make that shot count, the results should be spectacular. And if you miss or waste it... well that's a risk you've taken.

Risk versus reward.

Quote

Also would love to have a wide specter of colors for lasers. Yellow, blue, red, orange, purple, green ( cyan, magenta, lime for the heck of it ). If theres enough producers of say different medium laser manufacturers, like six then each could be known for their color along side other specs.
Not sure if the different kind of PPC and LAMS could have different colors, but imagine a orange PPC bolt! Or blue ams laser spits, frigging rave!

Not sure if we'll be seeing LAMS, but sure I could do some color coding on PPCs if people don't object too much.

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In the options menu for the mod you could hypotetically choose which setup. Now this mod would be best compatible for mods adjusting weapon balancing, like laser, ppc damage, range and so on.. Just an idea of mien, since Im not a modder myself..

1: You can choose to add any color you like for your lasers, before you buy or adjust after maybe? Either one would do. Artificial coloring a good explantation.

2: Cant change colore but all of them are out there, respective of their manufacturers.
2b: Alot of colors will be avaiable but are decided as above in form of which wavelengt is used.

3: Strict hierarchy or Classic. Close to waht we have seen up through all kind of Battletech games. Where large lasers could either be blue or red or green for extended ones? Some where yellow, in MW4 I think bombast laser was purple? Clans laser colors were same but specs were overall better, in MWO theirs are kinda crimson, yellowish green and cyan.

Sadly the lore based laser spectrums are pretty limited, but I'm also starting to run low on highly fluffed lasers. Once they're done, I'll be in free territory. There's still some real world laser facts that I'm basing my colors on (limitations of real world laser mediums) but within those ranges we'll have a pretty good color range. And anything that's invisible to the naked eye is pretty much suspect to potentially getting a flamboyant neon color for fun.

The limitation against using an option menu for laser colors is on the programming end. It can be done, but such a thing would get ridiculous if done for every single laser brand/type put into the game. And a singular "all lasers are green" would defeat the purpose of it. They're each gonna have their colors. I'll try to tint brand names to be similar to each other even if they share a same basic color with others.

Someone outside of here actually suggested a "dazzler" laser. Effectively it uses the splitter attachment for the shotgun-like effect me and Karl once talked about, but has alternating rainbow colors in the beam and doesn't do any damage but disorients and confuses the opponents. ....Or makes them dance.

I thought it was funny and I might throw it in there as a gag, but at least it was created using my components list.

Anyway, hoping to add more stuff soon.

_________

Nightbird, on 17 July 2019 - 03:10 PM, said:

You can mod in different weapons of course, but you won't be able to inflict damage like in lore without redoing how armor works in the game. As ablative as futuristic armor can be, the best you can expect is to turn damage (laser/shell/gauss/whatever) from piercing through with minimal resistance to dispersing the energy in a crater on the armor.

In other words, if the top part of the CT takes a hit, the bottom of the CT shouldn't lose armor thickness because of it.

Then you can create weapons not singularly based by damage, but by the duality of penetration and volume of armor destroyed.

Already have a similar plan. I call it the subsection hitboxes. But I'm not gonna go as far as plotting out armor thicknesses. Instead when you allocate armor to the front center torso, it would sub-divide that between multiple front CT subsection hitboxes based on a percentage. For example...

This Griffin's arms would have a higher percentage of the armor you allocate to it on the blast shields than on the forearms.

With this I can also allocate "slots" to specific sub sections, so a hit to the lower right hip on the Griffin will never be able to damage the missile launcher.

So rather than "this armor is 30 cm thick,"
I can simply go "25% of the armor you allocated to that section goes to this subsection, but 40% goes to that subsection."
If you assume that there are 4 subsections, then it is possible that another subsection might have 25% of the armor allocated and the last might have 10%, or 30 and 5, or 15 and 20...etc.

Far as the Gauss, think I wrote that plan out already. Shorthand is this: Lets assume that a Gauss shell has the potential to deliver 15 points of damage. It hits something that has a total of 6 armor (entry and exit) and 3 structure (for simplicity). In total, that's 9 points. It will have completely passed through that target, delivering its 9 damage and have 6 points of damage potential left for the second thing that slug hits. Now if it hits something with 15 points of armor... it won't pierce. Also, since ACs have a maximum possible range of 2k (at this point with pretty much zero accuracy due to recoil, spread, mech jostle [bob], etc), and Gauss Rifles are not only capable of amazing range in indirect fire in real life, but even in Technical Readout 3039 under the Hunchback, Prototype Gauss Rifles (inferior to Gauss Rifles) were making accurate hits with direct fire from outside of visual range (in tabletop that's 60 hexes or 1,800 meters), you can imagine I want this sniper weapon to be long range. But as momentum dies, the damage potential should also suffer.

Bear in mind, because of this, Gauss Rifles are bound to be able to dismember enemies with well placed shots. PPCs for similar reasons may potentially disintegrate things. However for them, due to the TechManual's description of armor and how well it disperses heat over its surface, rather than PPCs damaging structure by default, on impact the kinetic element may transfer into the structure through armor, however the heat-based damage evaporating layers of armor will spread out to adjacent subsections instead of trying to tear a hole through the target. Different PPCs have different ratios of heat-based and kinetic-based damage.

----------

Energy weapons to look forward to in the very near future: Magna, Hotshot and HotSeat flamers, a pair of PPCs and a pulse laser. Some revamps of current weapons. Clarification and a change in how heat is going to work in relation to energy weapons (splitting reactor and weapon heat from the same heat pool and having that govern overheat had an issue that came up that leaves balancing them rather...difficult. I've redesigned how that is going to work with promising results in testing.)

[Nightbird]

Koniving, on 02 August 2019 - 05:39 AM, said:

Already have a similar plan. I call it the subsection hitboxes. But I'm not gonna go as far as plotting out armor thicknesses. Instead when you allocate armor to the front center torso, it would sub-divide that between multiple front CT subsection hitboxes based on a percentage. For example...

This Griffin's arms would have a higher percentage of the armor you allocate to it on the blast shields than on the forearms.

With this I can also allocate "slots" to specific sub sections, so a hit to the lower right hip on the Griffin will never be able to damage the missile launcher.

So rather than "this armor is 30 cm thick,"
I can simply go "25% of the armor you allocated to that section goes to this subsection, but 40% goes to that subsection."
If you assume that there are 4 subsections, then it is possible that another subsection might have 25% of the armor allocated and the last might have 10%, or 30 and 5, or 15 and 20...etc.

Far as the Gauss, think I wrote that plan out already. Shorthand is this: Lets assume that a Gauss shell has the potential to deliver 15 points of damage. It hits something that has a total of 6 armor (entry and exit) and 3 structure (for simplicity). In total, that's 9 points. It will have completely passed through that target, delivering its 9 damage and have 6 points of damage potential left for the second thing that slug hits. Now if it hits something with 15 points of armor... it won't pierce. Also, since ACs have a maximum possible range of 2k (at this point with pretty much zero accuracy due to recoil, spread, mech jostle [bob], etc), and Gauss Rifles are not only capable of amazing range in indirect fire in real life, but even in Technical Readout 3039 under the Hunchback, Prototype Gauss Rifles (inferior to Gauss Rifles) were making accurate hits with direct fire from outside of visual range (in tabletop that's 60 hexes or 1,800 meters), you can imagine I want this sniper weapon to be long range. But as momentum dies, the damage potential should also suffer.

Bear in mind, because of this, Gauss Rifles are bound to be able to dismember enemies with well placed shots. PPCs for similar reasons may potentially disintegrate things. However for them, due to the TechManual's description of armor and how well it disperses heat over its surface, rather than PPCs damaging structure by default, on impact the kinetic element may transfer into the structure through armor, however the heat-based damage evaporating layers of armor will spread out to adjacent subsections instead of trying to tear a hole through the target. Different PPCs have different ratios of heat-based and kinetic-based damage.

Only issue with this approach I can imagine is that in PvP, you've eliminated brawling altogether since gauss will be able to pierce anyone in one shot, turning it into a trench warfare game.

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 02 August 2019 - 05:52 AM, said:

Only issue with this approach I can imagine is that in PvP, you've eliminated brawling altogether since gauss will be able to pierce anyone in one shot, turning it into a trench warfare game.

You forget that unlike Call of Duty, the weapon can only be used once every ten seconds and once it misses, there's 10 seconds in which to kill your opponent, and weapons such as the Pontiac 100 which can deliver 20 damage in less than 2 seconds, and lasers that can work well in concert with one another. Not to mention you can also take out the Gauss Rifle by specifically aiming for the Gauss Rifle, and instead of say 64 armor to get through like in MWO without quirks, there's 32 like in Battletech for the right side torso of an Atlas, and of which the ballistic slot of an Atlas is externally mounted under the ribcage so there's a medium-low percentage of armor protecting it.

If front torso sections are divided into three subsections, at most you're looking at 30% of 32 stock armor or 9.6 front armor protecting that Gauss Rifle. One that's very, very sensitive to being hit while it is armed. Not to mention that Gauss Rifles also need to be charged and as such have a firing delay, is exceptionally large so most mechs are not going to be able to mount one within a good realm of their armor. (In other words, with the slots sectioned off as internal and external in addition to location, something that's too big for the provided slot size would have the number of slots outside of the allocated space be 'unarmored' due to being outside of the armor.


Sadly I can't find one with the colored slots. But instead of a hardpoint system, I have a soft point system for customization and a sized slot system. Lets say your weapon is 10 slots, but your weapon space has 6 slots. This means that 40% of your weapon is not protected by your armor. This is why the endurance of a weapon matters in the specs I'm making, rugged weapons can still function under a bit more abuse (more slots lost to damage) than normal weapons, and fragile weapons are more easily broken. Gauss Rifles are fragile weapons.

An AC/20 may be horribly inaccurate at 2,000 meters that you'd have almost the same chance of hitting something blind as you would trying to aim, but it will still do damage if it hits. There's also the fact that any autocannon can just about do double damage if carefully pushed during a ten second slice (40 for one AC/20 to GR's 15), And if MWO has taught you anything at all, its that a lot can happen in 10 seconds. If high alpha range damage was completely king nobody would build or succeed with brawlers in MWO, but they do as so long as they're not under heavily coordinated fire its pretty reasonable to be able to close in on a sniper. In MWO high alpha strikes can happen two to three times in 10 seconds, easily. In Mw5, the Gauss Rifle is gonna fire once in ten seconds.

Also I mentioned direct and indirect fire, meaning for that exceptional range if you still want to do massive damage, you have to fire indirectly like a mortar. With 1,800 being the approximate range for direct fire and still doing some damage, to get full damage at that range or to get superior range and still get exceptional damage, it's gotta be used like a mortar just like in Mechwarrior 3050f or the SNES.


As such, Gauss Rifle also has an exceptionally high skill ceiling and again, one shot per ten seconds.
Brawling isn't going anywhere, especially since sensors don't go 2 kilometers meaning said GR guy would need a spotter at that range for indirect fire, and numerous other complications.
Unlike Call of Duty where you can cheat the system with a GR as a one shot insta kill blind fire 360 no scope weapon with aim assist, none of that ********'s gonna help a Gauss Rifle user here.

Also, the game ends in 3049.
Prototype GR's don't start showing up until 3039. By then, you'll have "skillz."

[Nightbird]

We can agree to disagree on this, but weapons that can 1 shot maim because instead of MWO's 2x armor values, you're doing 1/6 the armor. A lot can happen in a brawl in 10 seconds, but with this HP system you'll only see people taking pokes from 1km apart and hiding the other 9 seconds.

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 02 August 2019 - 11:36 AM, said:

We can agree to disagree on this, but weapons that can 1 shot maim because instead of MWO's 2x armor values, you're doing 1/6 the armor. A lot can happen in a brawl in 10 seconds, but with this HP system you'll only see people taking pokes from 1km apart and hiding the other 9 seconds.

Need to destroy all corresponding sections to destroy a torso (so you could throw a 60 damage volley at the lower right side torso, and in the above example 9.6 armor and some structure is destroyed; congratulations, you've wasted nearly 5/6ths of that volley of damage... high damage alphas or vast single shots are a huge waste.

We're also talking about a single player game in which the AI's first thought is to close the distance by crashing through 9/10ths of their own base. Just 'cause you'd be a cheesy ******* and do it, doesn't mean the AI will. Admittedly since the AI very obviously aimbots (watch the hunchback in this trailer at 0:49 to 0:51), the AI would be exceptionally good at this. However, useful strikes for dismembering limbs need to be aimed at the actuators, a particularly difficult feat with indirect fire.

Also most missions wouldn't permit you to camp like that, if you've noticed they have vehicles, infantry, gunships, I'm hoping they have some aerotech, and mention of satellite scanning. I have little doubt that a sniper focused build won't get very far and if MWLL gets modded in as some of their former guys have already expressed interest in and asked Russ about (which he doesn't care as long as it's a mod for something PGI sold), well their Gauss Rifles do exceptional damage once every 7 seconds and it's not the only go to weapon.

And on that game, hit anywhere on the ST does damage to the entire ST, and mass alpha strikes permit massive damage, instead of a cutoff limit of how much health is dedicated to that specific spot. So say you used the Gauss Rifle on a Locust, and hit the Locust 1E in the left torso in a non-vital spot. Pretty much most of the ST is non-vital. So you hit that ST and its got 8 armor front and 2 armor rear. Lets say the rear is two subsections and the front is 4 evenly armored subsections, you did 3 damage to armor (2 front, 1 rear) and 1 damage to structure with that Gauss Rifle shot.

Now assuming you didn't knock the Locust down, which a single Gauss Rifle never knocks one down in tabletop, he's gonna close in while that GR is recharging. And during that ten seconds, you're reloading the Gauss Rifle and priming it to fire again which means it is volatile and explosive. Boom. Also this assumes you hit the target.
Now from what I've seen, this game usually has around 5 to 60 targets on the screen at once. Between that, the procedural nature of the maps, the somewhat unpredictability mentioned in the procedural AI and start locations (I'm sure it'll be mostly fixed, but apparently it liked to have the entire base become active and attack the player at once).


Try MWO under a similar restriction, a devastating high alpha build, but a mandatory 10 second wait between shots, see how well it works. Then consider that you will have a lot more targets, flying targets, tiny targets, where cover means nothing as it is destructable and your high alpha against targets in which only a fraction of the damage from your shot really does anything and a sub-section of the mech is "destroyed" Instead of instakilling a light mech for a left torso shot, you've taken off 1/4th of a torso...per ten seconds. Meanwhile that Locust can deal at least 9 damage and since machine guns are ballistics and the burst fire rule lets them individually (without accounting for direct and indirect blows) do up to 6 damage.. you're gonna get ravaged. And that's one opponent in a game that isn't afraid to, in one of the Dev's own words, "throw three Atlases at you" in addition to every element of a base simultaneously deciding to attack you.

Also from what I have seen, the game doesn't really seem to do much in the way of high natural walls. So I sincerely doubt there will be much in the way of reliable indestructible cover. PGI's AI isn't good at navigating complex terrain.

[Koniving]

I do agree that one shot weapons do maim. That is the intent. The Siege weapons being exactly what they sound like, as devastating as they are described. However, the cost of such is so dire that it is again a risk versus reward. A high skill ceiling, a high vulnerability, a high energy drain (preventing excessive combinations of firepower, even though mass alphas are already going to be worthless), and the fact that the game can introduce (as I've heard) nearly 100 targets intent to kill the player(s, accounting for co-op) at once..

Unless you hit an assault mech with exceptional armor and structure, you'll never get the full 15 damage taken out on a single target. The Locust example pretty much gave us 4 damage out of a direct head-on hit. Now one could angle it to have it go through more than one section.... but that also adds to the skill based reward. (Actual skill, not level up bars).

Also not every GR/PPC is gonna be one shot, it'd be very hard to create 21 variants of standard PPC and 15 different Gauss Rifles that feel different if they all function identically.

[Nightbird]

If you ever do mod it like that you'll see how bad it is. Have fun

[LordNothing]

im going to buff ballistics and ppcs, nerf lasers, and leave missiles in the trash tier where they belong.

im going to call it "mw5 balance mod #8261"

Edited by LordNothing, 02 August 2019 - 01:36 PM.

[Koniving]

LordNothing, on 02 August 2019 - 01:35 PM, said:

im going to buff ballistics and ppcs, nerf lasers, and leave missiles in the trash tier where they belong.

im going to call it "mw5 balance mod #8261"

Think you've made an assumption without really reading them.

Tried tabletop with the full TacOps rules?

In a 10 time slice
Lasers can get one damage rating.
PPCS, Gauss, etc. get one damage rating.
Missiles get one damage rating (I haven't done my thread on them yet).
ALL Autocannons can get up to 2 ratings at the extreme risk of temporary or permanent weapons jam (depending on the rules you go with) OR EXPLODING IN YOUR FACE (this is only Standard/Light ACs [and I'm not certain but I think light ACs are actually excluded]).
MGs in exchange for gaining heat and jam/explosion risk can use the Burst Fire MGs rule to get multiple ratings (which are scattered all over the target).

I mentioned the AC/20 pumping out 40 damage because lets be honest, if you're trying to engage a Gauss Rifle at any range you're gonna want to disable that thing as quickly as possible and you'd probably take that risk to push that gun until either the badguy went boom or your gun goes boom.
Difference between an AC and a UAC is the UAC is designed for the double rate of fire and has a significantly lower chance to jam than an Autocannon pushed to its stress-limit. (UACs are also expressly stated to be firing at twice the rate of fire, too, and as such will be distinct in doing that).

If you read on the autocannons side, the average autocannon takes roughly 1 to 5 seconds to deliver its rating and reload just like the lasers (difference is a longer time between fire, cooldown and fire for individual shots). The difference is unlike the lasers, the autocannons aren't dead for an additional 5 seconds and can be reused at will but will push the overheat.
(Technically the lasers also have the same ability here, but this is generally for the more 'nerfed' 1-to-2 second long beams rather than the typical 0.1 to 0.5 second multi-shot beams).

Missiles will have variants where a LRM does 1 damage, they'll also have some where it'll do less but fire more frequently (allowing it to meet its rating) and some where they do more but are even slower to meet its rating.

The PPCs I mentioned before are still, as they have always been fluffed to be, a single rating per timeslice. The big thing is I'm taking PGI's approach of spreading the damage to multiple locations, so if it hits on the surface it'll spread its damage to multiple subsections on the body part hit (potentially to adjascent parts too). Mostly on the armor.

So that's not getting a buff, if anything it'll spread more than MWO's version.
Sometimes it'll be one shot to get the rating, sometimes it'll be a little more needed to get the full rating.

Edited by Koniving, 03 August 2019 - 04:51 PM.

[LordNothing]

Koniving, on 03 August 2019 - 04:47 PM, said:

Think you've made an assumption without really reading them.

Tried tabletop with the full TacOps rules?

In a 10 time slice
Lasers can get one damage rating.
PPCS, Gauss, etc. get one damage rating.
Missiles get one damage rating (I haven't done my thread on them yet).
ALL Autocannons can get up to 2 ratings at the extreme risk of temporary or permanent weapons jam (depending on the rules you go with) OR EXPLODING IN YOUR FACE (this is only Standard/Light ACs [and I'm not certain but I think light ACs are actually excluded]).
MGs in exchange for gaining heat and jam/explosion risk can use the Burst Fire MGs rule to get multiple ratings (which are scattered all over the target).

I mentioned the AC/20 pumping out 40 damage because lets be honest, if you're trying to engage a Gauss Rifle at any range you're gonna want to disable that thing as quickly as possible and you'd probably take that risk to push that gun until either the badguy went boom or your gun goes boom.
Difference between an AC and a UAC is the UAC is designed for the double rate of fire and has a significantly lower chance to jam than an Autocannon pushed to its stress-limit. (UACs are also expressly stated to be firing at twice the rate of fire, too, and as such will be distinct in doing that).

If you read on the autocannons side, the average autocannon takes roughly 1 to 5 seconds to deliver its rating and reload just like the lasers (difference is a longer time between fire, cooldown and fire for individual shots). The difference is unlike the lasers, the autocannons aren't dead for an additional 5 seconds and can be reused at will but will push the overheat.
(Technically the lasers also have the same ability here, but this is generally for the more 'nerfed' 1-to-2 second long beams rather than the typical 0.1 to 0.5 second multi-shot beams).

Missiles will have variants where a LRM does 1 damage, they'll also have some where it'll do less but fire more frequently (allowing it to meet its rating) and some where they do more but are even slower to meet its rating.

The PPCs I mentioned before are still, as they have always been fluffed to be, a single rating per timeslice. The big thing is I'm taking PGI's approach of spreading the damage to multiple locations, so if it hits on the surface it'll spread its damage to multiple subsections on the body part hit (potentially to adjascent parts too). Mostly on the armor.

So that's not getting a buff, if anything it'll spread more than MWO's version.
Sometimes it'll be one shot to get the rating, sometimes it'll be a little more needed to get the full rating.

the point i was trying to make is that balance mods are going to be many and very biased towards the modder's weapon preferences. some are going to lean towards tabletop rules, others biased towards other mechwarrior games. its gonna be all over the place. and thats just weapons, quads protomechs, superheavy mechs and mobile platforms are all going to be there as well. *drools*

Edited by LordNothing, 03 August 2019 - 06:00 PM.

[Koniving]

Fair enough. Sorry the original post sounded a bit more condescending as if you read Nightbird's preconception and used that to classify the whole thing. I mean I would like Nightbird to see what he fears isn't the case but other than showing off the incomplete version of it on HBS Battletech or having him see the final mod on mw5...don't think he will see.

Mine is going for tabletop encompassing all rules (admittedly with a few selections where they conflict towards those made by FASA over wizkidz, early Catalyst over later Catalyst...and FASA over Catalyst where applicable unless the Catalyst version works better in real time) combined with established lore and fluff.
But then taking that and breaking the summary of 10 seconds in favor of real time, with anything "time checked" so that it could be plugged back into tabletop or Solaris VII and still get roughly the same result.
(Pulse lasers are laser machine guns, standard lasers have quick burst (0.1 to 0.5 second beams) with multiple shots or single continuous beam (1-2 seconds). Autocannons take 2 to 100 shots to net an approximate rating. Those with more shots to get rating will go above the rated damage and those with fewer may fall short of the generic rated damage. Since Gauss and PPCs are generally given the impression to be immensely powerful fear-inspiring weapons with no fluff of rapid fire [not counting sub-types like the Assault Gauss which is a low caliber Gauss that fires like a rotary cannon], it makes little sense for me to do as Nightbird has been implying by making them need 3 or more shots to get their damage.)

(MR. 100 shot ac/20 winds up being one of the two most damaging ac/20s in the game with one of the fastest delivery times overall, though like some of the other fast delivery weapons it won't like being pushed to repeat itself. Just in case if someone is making an instant assumption after earing 100 shots, holding it on target won't be any different than an unquirked is medium laser in mwo.)

Edited by Koniving, 03 August 2019 - 06:27 PM.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger said:

(Edited to send a notification to Karl).if by any chance you might be around I wouldn't mind a thought or two.
(Others welcome to give feedback too.)

First some quick history.

I've been working on the Magna MK II with the limitation that it is similar but not identical to Defiance B3M, Diverse Optics 2, and Martell. Beyond that I don't have a lot of detail.

So I was digging through the Macross-inspired mechs (and Dougram-inspired Wolverine) and I noticed that Magna is pretty much on just about all of them. And none of the art cooperated with each other. Some of it makes sense now that I've seen the original scales (Warhammer's tiny, Rifleman's even tinier, Marauder's gigantic, etc...)

Anyway, I noticed a trend that every single one of those Magna MK II-carrying machines had no real means of dealing with anything other than mechs and large targets. Nothing decent for flying targets or smaller targets. As such, I went with the goal of having Magna be especially useful against light armored vehicles, aircraft, and generally swarm attacks.

That's when I discovered the Magna Laser Rifle. So. I figured out how to get exactly what I wanted while keeping true to exactly what Magna is apparently known to make in the only thing detailed enough to give me an idea of what the laser is like.

I'm quite happy with it. A wide-beam weapon (which still fires straight, it's just twice as wide) with a beam that lasts longer and keeps the same damage efficiency despite the wider field due to a larger charging chamber and capacitors. This will be very useful against multiple targets by laser-strafing (dragging the laser across them), yet still fully effective against mechs and armored targets so long as you have the skill to keep focused on a subsection of a mech.

To achieve this I'm giving it a twin-beam emitter within MW5 Mercs (so it will be firing two lasers side by side) which will appear as a single wide beam. This does mean that if you're inbetween hitboxes, the damage will spread between them creating a lackluster armor penetration feeling. I see this as allowing some player skill to determine how 'true' the fluff of Magna's reduced armor penetration will be.

Don't worry, don't need help there per sé.
So then I thought to myself: If the laser rifles are this detailed, why not look at others?

This is where I discovered many rifles, of many types including ER Rifles and Pulse Rifles.
Sweet, right?
Intek, Magna, many others. Some of which I've got no fluff about at all so this helps greatly! But then I hit Maxwell. It's caused a snag. In terms of laser rifles, the Maxwell is obscenely overpowered (even though it still fits in tabletop's "direct hit" bonus damage range). The tradeoff for its firepower is not expressly pointed out in Sarna but basically it's got a penalty to the to-hit roll (harder to score a hit on the enemy). I've chosen to interpret that as "hard to get the full damage where you want it."

If I translate Maxwell's stats directly into a medium laser, I get an ML with a range of 247.5 meters and 8.35 damage for a rating. Basically this is about as overpowered as it gets.
I've worked with this and toned it a bit to make it less insane where it takes 2 full seconds of fire to achieve that damage with a weapon that'll overheat well before that. I feel I came to a happy middle ground for the Maxwell ML to create something demanding fairly high skill while keeping it fully functional for what normally uses it. This medium laser is exclusively found on non-VTOL aircraft, but my idea still will work quite well even on strafing runs.

But the Maxwell DT is used by a mech. So here I am taking a shot in the dark to have the Maxwell DT live up the Maxwell reputation of superior armor penetration...but also tying real player skill into how effective it is. What's even weirder is the mech that uses this ML deliberately has the laser placed between twin large pulse lasers on each side torso!! Given that LPLs are just powerful laser machine guns, the long beam duration I used for the original Maxwell makes good sense to use here, too.

This is where I'll need your opinion. I want the DT to stand out as a laser weapon with a high skill ceiling.

Spoiler

I'm working with the assumption that "DT" could mean "Dual Task", "Double Time" (meaning do it quick) or something else. (Am welcome to other interpretations).

Here's my idea.
This laser uses a low intensity beam to 'prepare' the armor for maximum disintegration and once it is primed the beam shifts to a more intense one that rapidly melts the armor at the target point (but is largely ineffective elsewhere as such it'll reset to the low intensity beam if you aim somewhere else).

Functionality:
Maxwell DT's concept is to be a continuous beam where it is turned on by pressing the trigger and instantly turned off by releasing the trigger.
1 second of continuous beam will cause the weapon to overheat, locking it out for 9 seconds.
As with any similar Star Trek Phaser style BT laser I'm designing, you can stop it at any time to allow it to cool down. It cools very, VERY slowly.

But here's where the idea becomes unique from other long beam duration models:

In this case, the laser's first phase (pity it wasn't called a DP laser, dual-phase would be perfect wording), the laser does a very weak 0.4 damage per 0.1 seconds for 0.5 seconds (2 damage).
If sustained on a specific area, each 0.1 seconds after that will deliver 1 damage.
So..
Accumulated Time:
Accumulated damage:
0.1 seconds 0.2 seconds 0.3 seconds 0.4 seconds 0.5 seconds.
0.4 damage 0.8 damage 1.2 damage 1.6 damage 2 damage.

And if you managed to hold onto that targeted spot...

0.6 seconds 0.7 seconds 0.8 seconds 0.9 seconds 1 second
3 damage 4 damage 5 damage 6 damage 7 damage
(And then overheated, weapon lockout for 9 seconds.)

But if you stray from the intended body section (or are blocked) the damage pauses and .2 seconds to get back before it resets. It also resets if you let go of the fire button, though each 0.? seconds you stay off the trigger you regain 0.1 seconds of firing power. Once you hit the full second (in addition to consume what you regain from staying off the trigger), the weapon locks out til the mandatory cooling period is done.

Thoughts?

For comparison, the current fastest lasers to net a damage rating in the minimum possible time are
Rassal Blue Beam at 0.9 seconds (0.8 firing delay, 0.1 second hit and either you're on target or you wasted it, also you know of all the issues I frequently describe for the Rassal)
and Fuersturm-b, in which in 1.3 seconds (0.3 second delay, 1 second beam) to net 5. The next fastest laser is the Magna MK II at 2.1 seconds.

Other medium lasers typically take around 4 seconds to achieve their rating but have 0.1-0.3 second beam times and just require multiple quick shots.

Here's all the currently existing and established lasers (none of these are listing anything other than time to net rating, so all other advantages/disadvantages are ignored/left out, those with shorter times typically have higher skill ceilings associated with them).
Star Wars Blaster style (0.1 to 0.2 beam times)

Martel Model 5 (6 shots, takes 3.55 seconds to net 5.04 damage.)
Diverse Optics 18 (3 shots, 4.2 seconds to net 4.8 damage).
Diverse Optics 2 (2 shots, 4.4 seconds to net 5 damage).
Defiance B3M (3 shots, 4.4 seconds to net 5 damage).

In Between (non-interruptable beams)
Magna MK II (2 shots, 2.1 seconds to net rating equivalent.)
Russal Blue Beam (1 shot, 0.9 seconds to net 5 damage)*^

(Rassal Blue Beam's firing style, but with an eternity to cool off before it can be used again.)

Star Trek Phaser (interruptable beams). (Time listed is if you throw all the eggs into one basket and fire until it overheats, and minimum possible damage achieved by it.)


Fuersturm-b (1 shot, 1.3 seconds to net 5? damage) (0.3 second firing delay, 1 second beam.)
Maxwell: (1 shot, 1.5 seconds to net 4.175 damage). (0.5 second firing delay. 1 second beam used out of slow cooling 2 second max.)
Maxwell DT: (1 shot, 1.? seconds to net 7 damage). (? firing delay. 1 second beam.)

*again, all advantages/disadvantages are deliberately left out of this quick time comparison.
^Placed on a technicality, there's 0.8 seconds between when you pull the trigger and when it fires with no ability to cancel it.

Edited by Koniving, 07 August 2019 - 04:09 AM.

[Koniving]

So, a quick update. The Maxell DT idea is scrapped. Some conversations with some Unreal-friendly programming modders basically told me the script needed for keeping track of the laser's mode based on focusing on a specific point on a specific enemy would be both a nightmare to make and likely a nightmare to run especally if a player insisted on having a number of them or the AI began using it.

I've opted instead for a more basic concept with exact numbers not yet decided on. I've also learned I was reading the damages of laser rifles incorrectly. Maxell DT is actually not more powerful it just has better armor penetration There's a few ways I could consider integrating that from just better crit chances to through armor crits to simply extra damage against armor or simply extra damage to a few other ideas. Haven't quite decided yet.

As for the update on the laser page/post... it's in the "recent laser list" spoiler which you can also see in the spoiler below as well.

Spoiler

Small lasers
Allied Technologies 1 on Nirasaki by New Age Systems Incorporated
Bowie Electronics (small laser) on Terra by Bowie Industries
Chris Comp 32 on Campbelton by Fusigon Heavy Weaponry
On Marduk by Victory (Norse Battlemech Works)
On New Avalon by Achernar Battlemechs
On Oliver by Brigadier Corportions

Defiance A5L on Duran by Rastaban Agricultural
On Hesperus II by Defiance Industries
Defiance B3S on Furillo and Hesperus II by Defiance Industries

Dinatec Mark III on Terra by Mitchell Vehicles

Diverse Optics Type 1 on Glasgow by Wesley Industries
(Take a note on Glasgow)

Diverse Optics 10
on Alpheratz by Alliance Defenders Limited
On Andurien by Brooks, Inc.
On Chahar by Trellshire Heavy Industries
On Irian by Diverse Optics Incorporated.

Dodd on Soul and Terra by Blankenburg Technologies

Exostar on Delavan by Dynamico Limited
Exostar-2C on Episilon Eridani by Kressly Warowrks
Exostar IV on Mars by Wrangker Aerospace

Firmir LaserLite on Betelgeuse by Firmir Weaponry
Hessen IX on Terra by Skobel MechWorks
Intek on Terra by Ford Military Limited and Skobel MechWorks
Jackson Model 12 by Indicass by Ceres Metals Industries
On Solaris by Norse-Storm Technologies Incorporated

Kajuka Type 1 Stiletto on Sian by Saroyan Special Projects and on Texlos by Kajuka (Aerospace Division)
(Possible thought; very narrow beam laser with a lot of range? Long beam-style?)

Krieger on Orestes by Odin Manufacturing and on Terra by Pandora 'Mech Works

Magna on Stewart by Corean Enterprises
Magna Starglow on Outreach by Blackwell Heavy Industries
Magna Mk I on Lopez, Sterope, and Taurus by Magna Metals Inc.

Martell by Asuncion/Bernado by Earthwerks Incorporated and Fletcher by Flame Tech

McCorkel on Terra by Caletra Fighters

Starflash I on Atreus by Imstar Aerospace

Aberdovey MK II on Epsilon and Eridani by Kressly Warworks
Allied Technologies 2 on Nirasaki by New Age Systems Incorporated
Agra 1L on New Samarkand by New Samarkand Armor Works
Agra 3L on Aix-la-Chapelle by Diplan Mechyards
Agra 3L on Luthien by Defiance Motors
Blankenburg on Terra by Blankenburg Technologies
Bowie Electronics on Terra by Bowie Industries.
Ceres Armsn Capella and S. Ives by Ceres Metals Industries.
ChrisComp 38 on New Avalon by Achernar Battlemechs
Chris Comp 39 on New Avalon by Achernar Battlemechs
Defiance B3M
Built on
Planet | Company
Hesperus II by Defiance
Furillo by Defiance
Coventry by Coventry Metal Works
Pandora by Red Devil Industries

In use on:
Banshee
Cobra
Commando
Enfield
Falconer
Gunslinger
Hatchetman
Lynx
Porcupine
Salamander
Savannah Master
Scarabus
Spector
Starslayer
Thunder Hawk
Verfolger
Wolfhound
Zeus

Check 3025 and 3025 revised.

Diplan M3 on Luthien by Defiance Motors
Diplass on Apollo by Diplass Technologies
Diplass Optimax on Apollo by Diplass Technologies

Diverse Optics 2 on Corey by Hellespoint Industrials, on Lushann by Lushann Industrials Limited, on New Vandenburg by Concordat Telecome and TransStellar, on Sian by Hellespont 'Mech Works, and on Sterope by Sterope Defense Industries.

Diverse Optics 14 (MLmade on Chahar Trellshire Heavy Industries)
Diverse Optics 18 on Alphard by Marian Arms Incorporated, on Chahar by Trellshire Heavy Industries, on Irian by Diverse Optics Incorporated, on Sterope by Sterope Defense Industries
Diverse Optics 20 on Kessel by Diverse Optics Incorporated

Firefy Type II (n Apollo y Roe Weapon Systems)
Firmir Standard(n betalgby Firmir Weaponry)
Harmon Starclass (n Son Hoa by StarCorp Industries)
Hellion B-II on (Andurien and Westovery Free Worlds Defense Industries)
Hellion Spitfire (Terra by Ford Military Limited)
Hellion-V (Andurien by Bergan Industries and Brooks, Inc. On Irian by Irian Battlemechs Unlimited. On Kalidasa by Kali-Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated, on Kendall by both Bergan Industries and Brooks Inc. On Shiro III by Grumman Amalgamated. On Trellisane by Gutierrez Aerospace.)
Intek (on Asuncion by Kallon Industries. On Arc-Royal by TharHes Industries. On New Syrtis by Johnston Industries. On Terra by Leopard Armor)
Irian Weapon Works Super 6 (on Irian by Irian Battlemechs Unlimited and on Kendall by Kali-Yama - Alphard Trading Corporation)
Kajuka Type 2 Bright Blossom (on Sian by Saroyan Special Projects and on Texlos by Kajuka Aerospace Division).
Krieger (on Orestes by Odin Manufacturing, on Terra by Pandora 'Mech Works)
Krupp Model 2 (Mars by Krupp Stellar Technologies, Inc.)
Magna Mk II (on Kalidasa by Kali-Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated. On Lopez, by Magna, Mars by General Mechanics, New alencia by General Motors, Shiro III by Irian Battlemechs Unlimited, Stewart by Corean Enterprises, Twycross by Trellshire Heavy Industries).


Martell on
Alshain by Bergan Industries
Corey by Hollis Incorporated
Delayan by Dynamico Limited
Fletcher by Flame Tech
El Dorado by General Motors
Pinard by Pinard Protectorates Limited
Terra by Skobel MechWorks
Stewart by Corean Enterprises
Victoria by Shengli Arms
Wallis by Ronin Incorporated

Martell Model 5 on Canopus IV by Majesty Metals and Manufacturing.

Maxell Chukchi III by Maxell Metals Incorporated
Maxell TR on Terra by Bowie Industries
Maxell-UD6 on Terra by Caletra Fighters

(Note Omicron is made by Fusigon Heavy Weaponry)
Omicron 950 n Terra by Aldis Industries
Omicron 3000 on Campbelton by Fusigon Heavy Weaponry and on Illiushin by Vandenberg Mechanized Industries
Omicron 4000 on Campbelton by Fusigon Heavy Weaponry
(note: Fusigon no longer offers the 950 from their facilities).

OMI HighBurn on New Earth by the New Earth Trading Company

Photech 806c on New Avalaon by Corean Enterprises
Phototech 806c (typo?) on Terra by StarCorps Industries
Rassal Blue-Beam on Arcturus by Arcturan Arms (goes extinct 3049)
Sapphire on Terra by Grumman Industries
Starflash on Terra by Leopard Armor and Skobel MechWorks
Starflash II on Amity by Imstar Aerospace, on Atreus by Imstar Aerospace and on trellisane by Grumman Amalgamated
Victory 23R on Marduk by Victory Industries (formerly Norse Battlemech Works)
Marten Medium Laser on Talon by Kallon Weapon Industries.


Large Lasers
BlazeFire Systems on New Syrtis by Johnston Industries
Bulldog on Ingersoll by Bulldog Enterprise on Proserina also by Bulldog.
ChrisComp 43 Special on New Avalon by Achernar BattleMechs.
Cyclops Eye on Skye by Cyclops Incorporated
(Developed towards the end of the Third Succession War primarily for the Drillson Heavy Hover Tank, the Cyclops Eye was an unconventional design. While most Succession Wars era heavy lasers feature vulnerable long barrels and focusing mirrors, this system needed only a small slit-like emitter. This was a result of the system's use of a unique combination of laser and Particle Beam Technology. Instead of simply firing a beam of light or a stream of particles, the Cyclops Eye used a combination of both to produce a beam of significant penetrating power. The effect of this weapon is comparable to the Large Laser systems produced by Diverse Optics or Martell. The Cyclops Eye however is less vulnerable to damage than a conventional system and is also easier to maintain and manufacture.) Sources: Techncal Readout Page 50 (revised page 54). Technical readout 3039 page 62.

Defiance B3L on Hesperus II by Defiance Industries
Diverse Optics Type 20
Diverse Optics Type 30 (Kessel by Diverse Optics Incorporated)
Exostar on Delavan by Dynamico Limited
Firmir MaxiLase on Beterlgeuse by Firmir Weaponry
Krupp Model 32 on Mars by Krupp Stellar Technologies, Inc.
Magna MK III on Lopez by Magna, on Mars by General Mechanics, on Pandora by Red Devil Industries

Maxell SR on Mars by Wangker Aerospace

Nightwind on Loxley by Norse-Storm Technologies Incorporated
RAMTech 1200 on New Kyoto RAMTech Industries
Redbeam on ???? by Lushann Industrials Limited
(Note: Due to the design engineers focusing on the Redbeam's ability to withstand damage and maintain effectiveness, the weapon is larger in size and more unwieldly than others in the same class. This, in the opinion of the authors of STarCorps Industries' Notable Players report, makes it more appropriate to heavy tanks than more mobile BattleMechs)^Reference: Masters and Minions the StarCorps Dossiers page 163 (note this sounds like a good thing to check out)
Sunglow on Outreach by Blackwell Heavy Industries
Sunglow Type 2 on Detroit by Detroit Consolidated MechWorks and on Sterope by Sterope Defense Industries
Wu Heavy on Cpricorn III by Wu Industries

Not counting pulse or ER lasers and only counting IS brands...
That's at least 24 small lasers.
44 unique medium lasers.
And 17/18 large lasers.
Assuming that there aren't any from my old list missing from this new list.

Cyclops Eye is curious; it physically looks like an eyeball with a slit for the beam to come from and is actually a hybrid medium laser and underpowered PPC forming a large laser without the typically "long and vulnerable barrel." The combined force allows it to be on par with other large lasers. Neat.

Edited by Koniving, 26 August 2019 - 02:24 AM.