33 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Thinking more about stomps, I did make some suggestions (here) to end the match earlier but I agree a part of the rewards should make losing less painful. To increase participation and encourage "trying" even against bad odds, would a minimum reward level help? The minimum reward works in that if your match earnings are LESS than the MINIMUM, it'll be boosted up to the minimum. Both teams will have this minimum reward guideline, however a team being stomped will benefit far more because most c-bill rewards depend on kills, which the lopsidedly losing team doesn't produce many of.

For example:
>= 500 damage: 200LP, 250k Cbills
>= 1000 damage: 400LP, 500k Cbills,
>= 1500 damage: 600LP, 750k Cbills,
>= 2000 damage: 800LP, 1mil Cbills

I'm using damage because match score is divided by the mechs you use, making it useless for this purpose.

[Shanrak]

I don't think it will work because at the root of the issue is one of having fun not more cbills. For most players being stomped without being able to pilot their mechs and shooting things makes the game mode not fun. Stomping the other team or even having a close hard fight is much more rewarding.

The only solution is more balanced teams i.e. higher population and better match maker.

Edited by Shanrak, 28 May 2019 - 02:05 PM.

[Nightbird]

Shanrak, on 28 May 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

The only solution is more balanced teams i.e. higher population and better match maker.

Well, wouldn't better rewards even if losing improve population? Higher pop and better MM isn't a solution, it's a result.

[SeventhSL]

Shanrak, on 28 May 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

I don't think it will work because at the root of the issue is one of having fun not more cbills.

Absolutely correct. People play games for enjoyment. Dropping against a combined team of KCom, 228, LODD, who are objective rushing and insisting it is really for the benefit of Pugs, isn't enjoyable for those Pugs.

Edited by SeventhSL, 28 May 2019 - 03:26 PM.

[Shanrak]

Maybe if they're specifically called out such as via events. I think daily or weekly cycling events would do more for the population than a baseline reward system.

[Moebius Pi]

Nightbird, on 28 May 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

Well, wouldn't better rewards even if losing improve population? Higher pop and better MM isn't a solution, it's a result.

Nope.

You'd still have folks incessantly bitching about running into coordinated groups, 12 mans, meta-slaves, tryhards etc. You know, the usual pissing and whining that throws off QP casuals. Or, because loss rewards are high and "they know they can't win" <insert excuse why here> they just give up early on, and troll the match because hey, good loss rewards means IDGAF for those types. Not that we don't see that fairly frequently already as is.

The type of improvement you'd see in numbers isn't the type of improvement you'd actually want. It's still be the same shitshow, with more ******* in over their heads, not heeding warnings about the mode, etc. just going there exploiting its earnings, especially during anything event related.

The nature of the beast wouldn't change. The core gameplay (and its problems) wouldn't change. Nothing changes except a shinier participation trophy... you actually expect that to make for a meaningful, sustainable population increase? At that rate you may as well make ghost drops give a fat reward... but we don't have that with the perpetual you're next in queue countdown, do we?

[slide]

Minimum rewards would help provided that minimum is higher than what people can get for getting stomped 4 times in QP (it happens).

The reward levels in FP are barely on par with what you can earn in QP, over a given amount of game time, for an AVERAGE player on a winning team (I know I am mister average in this equation). If you are new, still learning or just plain bad at FP then your time is much better spent in QP where you can simply grind out more games per time input. This has long been part of why people go to FP during events, they go for the extra rewards but they don't stay once they are over (Lack of MM is the other big factor).

According to my stats I have averaged around 175k/QP match over my career. If I drop 4 mechs in FP I need to be making at least 4*175k=700k in FP. That's assuming some kind of equivalent time period of around 30 mins for 1 FP or 4 QP matches.
If you truly get stomped or dunked in FP it is entirely possible to come out of those matches with less than 200k, which when factoring the wait time for FP v almost instant matches in QP makes the earnings potential way less, even with 4 terrible QP losses.

I have said since Phase 1 that rewards in FP needed to be double what they are if you want to attract people to the mode and keep them there, nothings really changed.

So yes minimum rewards would be a good start.

[Nightbird]

slide, on 28 May 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

Keep in mind that a FP match is around the time of 3 average QP matches, a stomp can be the time of 2 matches, otherwise I agree that is the intent of this suggestion.

[J a y]

Rewarding damage will just put more pugs in the back with LRMs, making them even easier to beat.

Maybe increase base rewards for winning and losing?

[Nightbird]

J a y, on 28 May 2019 - 06:38 PM, said:

Rewarding damage will just put more pugs in the back with LRMs, making them even easier to beat.

Maybe increase base rewards for winning and losing?

If it's not tied to actions in a match you'll see people not try when they face a team.

[J a y]

Nightbird, on 28 May 2019 - 07:20 PM, said:

If it's not tied to actions in a match you'll see people not try when they face a team.

Its tricky. I feel like the people who throw will continue to throw regardless of rewards.

[slide]

Nightbird, on 28 May 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

Keep in mind that a FP match is around the time of 3 average QP matches, a stomp can be the time of 2 matches, otherwise I agree that is the intent of this suggestion.

I agree, working out an exact equivalence is difficult, due to queue/loading times, average game time etc. But a simple equation is 4 mechs in QP should equal the same or better as 4 mechs in FP all other things being equal (which they never will be) like time in the pilots seat, your performance etc.

Unless you are winning all the time it becomes obvious very quickly why no one sticks with FP after events.

I also think you use way more consumables on average in FP which hurts the equation to.

[LordNothing]

i would improve fp rewards just to bring people in, participation rewards too. anything to get the population up. but i would make the win reward significantly sweeter than participation because you do want to encourage people to actually try and win.

theres a certain breed of pug that i dont like. as soon as things go sour they go into derp mode where they hide in the back and try to die last so as to improve their score. they usually end up with scores worse than those who actually tried to fight. then at the end of the match they brag about still being alive. shortly after that he will get ganked, and then his other mechs will get butchered at the drop zone likely before hitting the ground and doing any damage. its a really inefficient use of armor.

way i see it, your first 3 mechs are expendable. if you can get 6 and a half minutes out of each you are doing well. if its late in the wave and you still got good health and ammo, you probably need to take more risks.

one thing i think id do away with though is halving the score every time you lose a mech. because if you are playing like you are supposed to you should be burning your mechs with your team. you don't want to encourage leeroy either so it should happen but change the multiplier from 0.5 to 0.75 so its not so draconian.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 May 2019 - 11:14 PM.

[RJF Volkodav]

LordNothing, on 28 May 2019 - 11:06 PM, said:

you don't want to encourage leeroy

Thats what do we need. Remove minimal rewards at all. All that potatoes running into firelines at the beggining to get mininmum score and disconnect for the next game shall recieve nothing both in QP and FW. Today this game dont encourage to get better, which together with events for accumulated score/dmg creates a field of 50dmg potatoes ingame.

[Paul Meyers DEST]

I think the Population would be bigger in fp if the rewards would be better.

It is not that easy to earn that much xp and cbills in fp than in four qp. Thats a bit sad.

[LordNothing]

RJF Volkodav, on 29 May 2019 - 12:31 AM, said:

Thats what do we need. Remove minimal rewards at all. All that potatoes running into firelines at the beggining to get mininmum score and disconnect for the next game shall recieve nothing both in QP and FW. Today this game dont encourage to get better, which together with events for accumulated score/dmg creates a field of 50dmg potatoes ingame.

a lot of those are new players who haven't mastered the basics yet. these are the people who you want to target for joining fp. cutting their rewards for being stupid will just make them come to the conclusion that faction play isnt worth it and they leave. you want them to stay, eventually get gud and maybe join units. and if they aren't getting rewards they they cant make the right builds and decks that work well in fp. they are pretty much being paid to be bots frankly so if you want to keep fp wait times low you should probably pay them.

[Paul Meyers DEST]

So true, MWO is maybe the most new Player unfriendly game ever. Mini rewards for 25 games and than you are crippled with low xp and mc.

Edited by Paul Meyers DEST, 29 May 2019 - 03:57 AM.

[Geewiz 27]

SeventhSL, on 28 May 2019 - 02:51 PM, said:

Absolutely correct. People play games for enjoyment. Dropping against a combined team of KCom, 228, LODD, who are objective rushing and insisting it is really for the benefit of Pugs, isn't enjoyable for those Pugs.

We weren't objective rushing. We base our decision on drop deck composition based of map and mode in Lobby screen same as every other 12 man that get's together. Your just salty because you were soundly beaten. The biggest problem I see in pug groups and this is when I'm in said pug group is your all so busy tripping over each other walking backwards trying to use each other as pug armour while running blue lasers lrms and ppc's on maps where you'd be better of running mid range dakka or something that you are even easer to beat.

[Bowelhacker]

Geewiz 27, on 29 May 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

We weren't objective rushing. We base our decision on drop deck composition based of map and mode in Lobby screen same as every other 12 man that get's together. Your just salty because you were soundly beaten. The biggest problem I see in pug groups and this is when I'm in said pug group is your all so busy tripping over each other walking backwards trying to use each other as pug armour while running blue lasers lrms and ppc's on maps where you'd be better of running mid range dakka or something that you are even easer to beat.

If anything LoDD actively pulls back on farming/stomping to encourage the other side to come back for more games.

[SeventhSL]

Geewiz 27, on 29 May 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

Your just salty because you were soundly beaten.

Ummm... no... but I do understand why you would think that.

My post was agreeing that no amount of rewards is going to bring people into FP if it is NOT FUN for them to play. It is not going to be fun for your average Jo while highly skilled premades brutally club them to death as soon as they sick their head up.

Do you not agree?


Edit: Also to be clear, this isn't a go at any of the units I mentioned. Seen some great sportsmanship out of all of them over the years.

Edited by SeventhSL, 29 May 2019 - 09:45 PM.