132 replies to this topic

[thievingmagpi]

TLDR; never help assaults. they can't help themselves and they will without fail, never help you either.

[martian]

Bistrorider, on 17 February 2020 - 08:47 AM, said:

The problem is also with an assault lance itself. Charlie lance often starts to spread out at the beginning of the match. Faster assaults try to keep up with the pack. Slower try to keep up with anybody they can. Why they don't go together? Four assaults can defend themselves for some time.

When your Assaults Lance is mobbed by 8-10 faster enemy 'Mechs, your Assaults are going to survive about one minute and it does not matter if we are talking about two or four assault 'Mechs.

Bistrorider, on 17 February 2020 - 08:47 AM, said:

And maybe even some relief will come.

My experience is that relief almost never comes.

[PhoenixFire55]

martian, on 18 February 2020 - 12:02 AM, said:

When your Assaults Lance is mobbed by 8-10 faster enemy 'Mechs, your Assaults are going to survive about one minute and it does not matter if we are talking about two or four assault 'Mechs.

For your assault lance to be mobbed by 8-10 "faster" enemy mechs it requires 3-4 enemy assaults to be part of the "mobbing", which truly raises lots of questions about how long exactly your entire glorious assault lance been napping on the spawn point.

[martian]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 February 2020 - 12:06 AM, said:

For your assault lance to be mobbed by 8-10 "faster" enemy mechs it requires 3-4 enemy assaults to be part of the "mobbing", which truly raises lots of questions about how long exactly your entire glorious assault lance been napping on the spawn point.

Some of them have been napping, some of them alt-tabbed, some of them AFK, some of them went the longer route ... and one guy in Marauder II loaded with SRMs went the other way than everyone else to "do his own thing", so to speak.

Yesterday I saw all these things - typically in one game.

Losing all assaults in the first minute or two means that the game is almost always over, unless the enemy team suddenly turns really incompetent.

[Captain Stiffy]

LowSubmarino, on 04 June 2019 - 04:33 AM, said:

Asking or begging ppl to not leave you behind is not very effective. It implies that you just want cover, but you dont have any idea what to do. Or at least it comes accross as a bit insecure. In love and war ppl tend to hover towards ppl that are confident in what they want and what they do. At least, apart from physical attributes, when it comes to attraction, that is one more relevant dimension.

Meaning, if you have a good idea, and your idea also includes a strategy that will most likely avoid a team to become too split, then phrase it directly, confidently and dont babble. Many ppl I hear keep talking for too long. Ppl are focused on playing and cant spare that much attention. Take Commander Fisher for instance, he suggests briefly and in one or two senteces tops, what he intends to do. Doesnt come accross as bitchy or whiney and focuses on simple strats that dont require much preparaton. Somehing like 'greetings mechwarrios, lets crush them together, evybody take top asap'.

Or maybe that you all hold at a ridge on polar, maybe half a click or a click in front of team reds firing line and that instead of standard nascar you all push over ridge on coutdown together. Give brief, easy to follow suggestions and present them confidently. Thats what ppl will listen to. If youre running an assault, then you will be very reliant on support. Always. The only way to not instadie way out of postion is to immediately sprint as fast as you can to where you know your mechs will prolly gether at least for a while. E.g. your side of hpg when match just began. Most of the time, team will gather their for maybe 30 to 90 seconds, glimpse on top of platform and then lean towards the right side. Or take top. Or split and die right away.

If youre running an assault, then dont join late. Not even one single second and take the shortest route directly to where you know the fight will prolly start. You should run there, dont peekaboo ineffectively, dont delay for anything, and move. A lot of assaults I see join late, just like all other weight classes do occasionally. The difference is, you cannot disengage at all in assaults. Even if you connect right away but then youre afk for just 10 to 20 seconds in a 55 or even 65 kph mech, youre already at a massive disadvantge. Or more precisely the disadvantage you had in terms of being that slow is massively increased. As was mentioned in multiple other threads, ppl know about the most common mistakes in QP matches.

One of the most common mistakes is that slow heavies and assaults are not even aware, that there is at the very least 1 - 3 very fast mechs that do not connect late, that dont join late, and that immediately sprint as fast and directly as they can to where they know that in 9 out 10 matches on any given map (with few exceptions) there will be very slow assault pilots that might have even joined late. Perfect and very easy targets.

What you ask for is not an effective strategy. The very worst thing in many standard QP matches would be for like a heaby and a medium (or maybe even more) to turn around and try to cover you, a mech that is already like 500 + meters behind the main nascar formation. Any light or fast skirmisher that has any experience at all, will have already won in a massive way, when that happens. Thats just one or maybe 2 lighter mechs, that occupy an assault mech, a heavy mech and a medium mech. Even a light or fast medium occupies and delays 3 big mechs for only 20 seconds, that is already a massive advantage. They have already won in terms of getting an advantage.

Now, that doesnt mean that this single advantage, as big as it is, will be capitalized on. Team red often times makes their own mistakes or has ppl that join late and get masscared at their respective back end of their formation. Imagine though, those mechs come back to save you. The fast mech of team red then disengages. Then what? he or she split 25 % of your entire team away from the constnatly moving frontlines. Not only that, ppl know most of the time, that those one or two fast lights that hunt your out of position mechs are only the tip of the spear. Moments later an army of enemy mechs will come around the corner and smash you.

Either way, no matter what you do, you loose if you play like that or at the very least constantly provide massive advantages for team red to exploit all the time. Again and over again. Basically, if you call for help, then youre helping team red in 8 out of 10 instances. Theres exceptions, for intance, when your team isnt really moving that much and youre kinda close. Calling for help wont completly pull them apart and you just make them aware that youre close and are being harassed. Thats good.

But if youre like 500 + meters away and your team is actually running, nascaring, then calling for help is the very worst thing to do. or the second worst thing. The very worst thing is to actually even be in that position. Doesnt matter if you happen to be there involuntarily, cause your mech/build simply cannot run faster or because you sniped a bit too often at mechs far away and lost focus for like 30 seconds and didnt realize your team has already started to move and is now like 700 meters away and youhave no hope at all to catch up in mechs that are that slow.

It is much more effective to not get pulled away and split off by small numbers that can easily disengage and have thus already won, even if they did not land a single small laser shot, to punish the very same openings and mistages on team reds side. Your faster mechs should attack those slow and out of position targets, or provide cover for big mechs that are actually within your formation. But splitting off is an abysmal idea and one of the main mistakes 50 % or more of the players do in literally every single QP match over and over again. They dont even realize that that will bring death and complete stomps. Evybody who just complains that they get left behind, doest not yet understand that.

It is not effective to simply ask for help, for mechs to travel all the way back to your position.

What are they supposed to do? While they run back, invest like a minute to get to you the other mech will just disengage and you allocated way and way and over the top too many ressources and mechs just to protect one single assault. Even if its two assaults.

No. You leave them to die and instead attack team reds flanks and hope that you got the better deal.

Its either that or you actually communicate. Im too lazy to tell ppl every single match, that you have a huge advantage on mining for instance, if you take center, as it prevents in 9 out of 10 times, that youre team splits around the center elevation to ineffectively run from one side to the other. The terrain and map features in center force a team to stretch out. All the while they get hammered from high ground nonstop. Almost all pug teams that get smashed burtally with zero or maybe 1 or 2 kills do this very mistake. Theyre timid, they dont know that not taking center almost always plays directly into team reds hand. Cause your team will always do what QP teams tend to do. That is the most prevalent strategy and it gives them assurance. A sense of security to just do what they will always do in most matches where theres no communication. Meaning, if center is taken, they will just stoically run around one side, right in complete vision of team red in center, to run to the other ramp in hope that for some reason they can get off some shots into your backside. They rely on you just running around and nascaring just like them.

It even works in quite a few games, as ppl that took center just start to rush after what seem easy targets. Which is how a team that has lowground and is down even 3 mechs can come back and win. Cause your team gave away huge advantages and leads by doing the very same thing they do.

Im too lazy to tell ppl eery single time and a lot of ppl are very timid and scared and they just stand around unsure, right infront of center ramp, wait, look what other ppl do and are scared to bleed some armor and then team red already got the center.

Same goes for hpg. I mean, how often do ppl hear over and over and over again, that not allowing team red to just take high ground which will by default massively reduce their chance to split into a stretching nascar right away is a very solid idea. You hear that every single time. And yet, a ton of players in literally every single match just wander about aimlessly or actually even counter nascar alone or in small numbers, smashing right into the entire death ball of team read. Instadying. Often times I get too annoyed and I rather just adapt and try to exploit team reds identical msitakes and at least dish out good dmg and killed a few mechs, even when loosing, than to try to organize a team ievery single match and tell them the most basic things.

And I also just expect for ppl that I get mixed with in QP matches to have some experience. Thats what I expect from a MM cause I have played this game since open beta for well over half a decade. If somebody actually has to be told that certain prevalent positions and strategies are potent in tier 1 - 2 then something is deffinitely wrong with the MM and tier system but thats not the topic here.

Either you communicate convincingly like some of the good commanders out there (listen to what they say and how they comminuate, theyre not whiney or angry, they just name a known, ez to follow, precise strategy) right at the very beginning of match or they at the very least know exactly where to go and where definitely not to be in an assault. Joining late in slow assaults and heavies is basically suicide. If you join late, like 30 - 60 seconds, your chance to actucally contribute in a meaningful way are basically non existend in 9 out of 10 cases unless youre a very sneaky and crafty assault pilot that does the only thing that could work. namely, they do not try to catch up when they consider their cahnces to be very bad and that effort to be very risky in a number of situations and on a lot of maps.

instead, they fall back a bit, hide and wait for their rotation to shift so that youre not trying to reach your nascar train right when team red has circled to where you try to catch up, what 99,9999 % of all slow heavy and assault pilots do, to get slaughtered over and over again, doing 0 - 1 alpha worth of dmg.

You dont need to be the best shot or pilot at all when playing assaults, What ou need to be is preferably a charismatic or at theast competent communicator that gives precise suggestions that make sense and that ppl know might work. E.g. to simply wait for reds nascar or to rush over a ridge togther at the same time or something like that. If you run assaults communicate. Or you better know exactly where to go and know how to get there asap. But even that might not be enough. As you saw on caustic, it is very easy to catch slow mechs every time. Even when your team gets smashed you might very well catch 1 - 3 slow mechs and can at least punish them and then at least you had some fun and didnt just melt like a bunch of ducklings getting blasted by nuclear warheads.

But simply begging for help for ppl to turn around to cover you vs a small number of even jsut one light???

If you do that, then you actually help team red. Involuntarily, but you still provide a very nice and juicy opportunity for team red to either smash your split mechs or at the very least occupy them and stop them from being able to attack any of your mech. Cause by then theyre all out of position trying to cover you in your assault

holy ****

[RickySpanish]

Captain Stiffy, on 18 February 2020 - 01:16 AM, said:

holy ****

Aite guys wait up while I read thI SAID WAIT UP GOD DAMN IT I READ AT FORTY EIGHT WORDS PER MINUTE

[martian]

RickySpanish, on 18 February 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

Aite guys wait up while I read thI SAID WAIT UP GOD DAMN IT I READ AT FORTY EIGHT WORDS PER MINUTE

When people do realize that the longer text they write, the less people will bother with reading it?

[Mech Walesa]

stupid people don't bother to read. they go to yt for advice and get dumber.

What LowSubmarino wrote should be a sticky. great piece of advice.

Edited by Mech Walesa, 19 February 2020 - 11:58 PM.

[martian]

Mech Walesa, on 19 February 2020 - 03:08 AM, said:

stupid people don't bother to read. they go to yt for advice and get dumber.

What LowSubmarino wrote should be a sticky. gear piece of advice.

TL;DR

[Xiphias]

RickySpanish, on 18 February 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

Aite guys wait up while I read thI SAID WAIT UP GOD DAMN IT I READ AT FORTY EIGHT WORDS PER MINUTE

I've got you: https://www.spreeder.com/app.php

martian, on 18 February 2020 - 09:53 PM, said:

When people do realize that the longer text they write, the less people will bother with reading it?

Mech Walesa, on 19 February 2020 - 03:08 AM, said:

stupid people don't bother to read. they go to yt for advice and get dumber.

What LowSubmarino wrote should be a sticky. gear piece of advice.

People not bothering to read long posts is on them, not everything can be condensed down into a couple of witty lines. Too many people with short attention spans. On the flip side, too many long posts ramble rather than actually contain good information so they aren't actually worth reading.

In this case, the post in question is definitely overkill, it's mainly reiterating and illustrating the same few points.

TL;DR
Be confident, take command, give clear and concise instructions. Move quickly towards where your team is going. Don't connect late or lights will come kill you. Having a few mechs go back to support 1-2 assaults is a bad strat and puts your team at a disadvantage. Calling for help if you're left behind is usually worse for your team than just letting you die. Don't split the party. Leave stragglers behind and do damage more quickly to the enemy team or actually communicate and lead the team.

It loses some nuance and omits the example strats, but that's the general idea.

TL;DR for the TL;DR

Calling for help is bad and hurts your team. Be better at staying with the team or communicate better.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Let’s not be too hard on those moronic, out of position assault pilots who cry in game and on the forums. On rare occasion these guys are extremely useful and might even be the MVP of the match.....as they can end up being very useful as bait.... I mean, how many times have we seen 1/2 the enemy team abandon their deathball to go get a taste of our lrm Atlas who is bravely indirect firing from 500-1000 meters behind our team? This allows the other 11 of us to fight 11 v 6 for a precious minute and a half sometimes and can turn a match to our favor. How many unaware, mixed build Dire Wolfs have given their lives so that we might get “free shots” on their oppressors...earning a 2 or 3 (maybe useful pilot) for one (useless pilot) trade for our team?

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 19 February 2020 - 06:42 AM.

[-Winter]

^ I didn't make this, but this about sums up the issue.

[Dimento Graven]

Interesting read...

My favorite thing in the whole world of MWO is to be in my assault moving, from the outset as fast as I can, in the most direct route I can, in the direction of the center of the map where the NASCAR will take place, be about half-way there when the fast lights/mediums get to the center, start getting their asses handed to them, and hear those lovely, lovely words, "Why are you assaults hiding in the back?"

LOL!

[Bistrorider]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 17 February 2020 - 09:06 AM, said:

read again and try to understand: it is detrimental to the overall goal (win) to do that in QP. dude, don't get me wrong: I don't wanna sound snarky or sth. a lot of us started out as you do, with dreams of actual teamplay etc; I'm sorry to say, but for the reasons explained over the last -5- pages, that is just not a thing.



feel free to try ;-)





QP is BY ITS VERY NATURE the "egoistic mode" in this game, so you won't see that happen. well, maybe you will, but the more you play, the more you realise it's -again- detrimental;
one assault going left is one dead blue guy; another blue guy trying to safe his as$ are 2 dead blue guys. and so on. it is that simple.

and the 200dmg in an assault; it happens. there's no shame in it.
it ALSO says that you did something wrong, and that you should learn from it;
no shame at all, given you ~try~ to improve.

Yeah, but we are talking also about efficiency here. Leaving big guy to die only because he is too "slow" is also a lose for a team. Why somebody is too slow and somebody is too fast? It's very tough question for me. QP is of course egoistic but like half of that egoism is in this game mode randomness. There is some teamplay in it however teamplay sometimes goes the other way.

Brauer, on 17 February 2020 - 09:52 AM, said:

If I am in an assault and know where to be and how to get there why should I change my play to suit a player who had no clue and is not going to contribute anyway? Having all four assaults stick to the slowest one/the one that is the worst at finding efficient paths just ends in four dead assaults and a thrown game.

I am all for team play, I think my participation in comp would show that. But the thing to do in QP is put yourself in a position to have a positive impact on the match, not try to help others who cannot help themselves. I am happy to provide advice to people and I try to argue against bad calls (like going basement on hpg, idling in low ground on Canyon, etc.) but I am not going to toss my match away because someone else is putting themselves in a position to be farmed, nor do I expect anyone to do that for me.

OK, i understand that. Let's say there is no moral dilemma here. You can't cover someone who is doing something bad or he is trying something at his own risk. But there is always someone who's gonna be slowest one.

Edited by Bistrorider, 19 February 2020 - 07:10 AM.

[RickySpanish]

^ It's better to leave someone behind who has gotten themselves into a bad position, and to gain a good position for yourself, rather than to stay behind and help them. This is sort of a version of the Prisoner's Dilemma - you have to assume that given the situation, the slow Assault pilot is bad and that helping them will just put you at risk. A good Assault pilot *will not* get left behind, because a) they have a build that isn't monsterously slow and b ) they know where the best positions for Assaults are on the map, and are taking the quickest route there. For example, my favourite Assault right now is the Cyclops S running 4 LB-10s. It does around 50kph at full speed. I don't get left behind, because even at 50kph that is plenty of time to run down a route that gives me cover until I'm in position. But, if I choose the wrong spot on the map to go to, I have no chance of repositioning and I only get one kill - that's my fault and the best I can hope for there is to dig in and hold out long enough to pull the enemy out of position.

Edited by RickySpanish, 19 February 2020 - 07:26 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

RickySpanish, on 19 February 2020 - 07:23 AM, said:

...

A good Assault pilot *will not* get left behind, because a) they have a build that isn't monsterously slow

Kind of a stupid assumption but...

I think it's 'monstrously' stupid to rush pell-mell to the center of the map all in a line based off of 'mech speed only to be crushed by the enemy who may have gotten there a little slowly, but as a more organized 'murder ball'...

Quote

...and b ) they know where the best positions for Assaults are on the map, and are taking the quickest route there.

Yeah... no... You still get left far behind if the average speed of your non-assaults is 60kph or faster, but after a while you just kind of shrug your shoulders and go with it, keeping your eyes on the flanks for the lights/mediums trying to get free *** shots on you.

And of course the obligatory: YOU HAVE A LOT OF NERVE SHOWING YOUR FACE AROUND HERE...

[CFC Conky]

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 07:43 AM, said:

...

I think it's 'monstrously' stupid to rush pell-mell to the center of the map all in a line based off of 'mech speed only to be crushed by the enemy who may have gotten there a little slowly, but as a more organized 'murder ball'...

...

Yup.

You don't always have to stay clustered around the assault mechs, staying within ~200m of them can work too. That said, on some maps where the main strat is 'take the top' asap (Mining Collective, HPG Manifold come to mind), you might have to leave the assaults behind for a bit.

But then again, wtf do I know, I'm T2...

BTW, for QP my min speed when running assaults is 48.6. North of 50 is better.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 19 February 2020 - 08:22 AM.

[Brauer]

Bistrorider, on 19 February 2020 - 07:03 AM, said:

Yeah, but we are talking also about efficiency here. Leaving big guy to die only because he is too "slow" is also a lose for a team. Why somebody is too slow and somebody is too fast? It's very tough question for me. QP is of course egoistic but like half of that egoism is in this game mode randomness. There is some teamplay in it however teamplay sometimes goes the other way.

[left][/size]



OK, i understand that. Let's say there is no moral dilemma here. You can't cover someone who is doing something bad or he is trying something at his own risk. But there is always someone who's gonna be slowest one.

If you play it right at least 9 times out of 10 you can be the slowest one and still be fast enough as long as you are going around 48kph. If you are severely underengined (like 32kph) or take bad paths there's really no helping the straggler in most cases, so it is best to just move on and get kills asap as the lone mech gets yanked.

The real issue with Nascar, in terms of effectiveness, is when mechs are rotating without shooting. If you're shooting and using all your heat you can still be an asset to your team, especially if you don't commit serious errors of positioning while rotating (spending time in low ground on Canyon or hibernal for example).

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 07:43 AM, said:

Kind of a stupid assumption but...

I think it's 'monstrously' stupid to rush pell-mell to the center of the map all in a line based off of 'mech speed only to be crushed by the enemy who may have gotten there a little slowly, but as a more organized 'murder ball'...

Yeah... no... You still get left far behind if the average speed of your non-assaults is 60kph or faster, but after a while you just kind of shrug your shoulders and go with it, keeping your eyes on the flanks for the lights/mediums trying to get free *** shots on you.

And of course the obligatory: YOU HAVE A LOT OF NERVE SHOWING YOUR FACE AROUND HERE...

My Sleipnir runs around 50kph and doesn't get left behind and performs well. So it sounds like you're doing something wrong if you get left behind all the time.

[Dimento Graven]

Brauer, on 19 February 2020 - 10:03 AM, said:

...

My Sleipnir runs around 50kph and doesn't get left behind and performs well. So it sounds like you're doing something wrong if you get left behind all the time.

First: You've never EVER been left behind by your team? Huh... You must be Jesus Christ or something...

Second: I don't typically have a problem with being left behind and actually somehow more often than not inexplicably will find myself at the front of the battle. Maybe by the time I get to the front, everyone has already done one lap of NASCAR and I just happen to be arriving at the beginning of the second or third lap?

Even when I have been "left behind" again, it's because almost everyone else has run up to the front at their max speed, 80 to 150kph, while I moving at my top 48, 50, 56.6, 65 kph speeds (dependent on 'mechs). Most of the time I'm not overly concerned, they get to the front and wait, and then I again end up ahead of them alphaing/DPS'ing and sharing my armor.

What is "wrong" is when/if they start engaging before the assaults have arrived, themselves get strung out due to their own differing speeds, then ***** about the assaults being in the back. It ain't because we stopped, we're not hiding, the faster pilots were just stupid. They should feel free to realize their mistake and run back to us, they've got the speed for it after all...

[Brauer]

Dimento Graven, on 19 February 2020 - 10:49 AM, said:

First: You've never EVER been left behind by your team? Huh... You must be Jesus Christ or something...

Second: I don't typically have a problem with being left behind and actually somehow more often than not inexplicably will find myself at the front of the battle. Maybe by the time I get to the front, everyone has already done one lap of NASCAR and I just happen to be arriving at the beginning of the second or third lap?

Even when I have been "left behind" again, it's because almost everyone else has run up to the front at their max speed, 80 to 150kph, while I moving at my top 48, 50, 56.6, 65 kph speeds (dependent on 'mechs). Most of the time I'm not overly concerned, they get to the front and wait, and then I again end up ahead of them alphaing/DPS'ing and sharing my armor.

What is "wrong" is when/if they start engaging before the assaults have arrived, themselves get strung out due to their own differing speeds, then ***** about the assaults being in the back. It ain't because we stopped, we're not hiding, the faster pilots were just stupid. They should feel free to realize their mistake and run back to us, they've got the speed for it after all...

I've been left behind when I make positioning errors, but then I am able to identify my mistakes and don't blame the team for my own decision to go full potato. Try acknowledging your mistakes rather than blaming the game, leg humpers, or fellow players.