31 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

InnerSphereNews, on 14 June 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

ATMs (All launchers.)
3 Damage Range Zone reduced to 245 (from 270)
3 Dmg to 2 Dmg Liner Falloff Zone range reduced to 295 (from 320)
Extended Range missile type bracket damage increased to 1.2 damage per missile (from 1.0)

The Close-Range changes are dumb. Let me guess, people who actually play the game managed to get you murdered by a couple of close-ranged ATM volleys?

The Extended-Range aren't enough. You still got WAAAAAAAAAAY less ammo efficiency at that distance.

InnerSphereNews, on 14 June 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

ATM Design Notes: The core intent of the adaptation of the ATM weapon system in MWO is that it is a missile system designed to reward those that learn how to properly zone themselves from a target to maximize the various damage plateaus before the drop-offs. With the potent 3 damage per-missile zone being a "high risk / high reward" zone that rewards players who learn how to get close enough to hit the 3 damage plateau, but far enough that the opponent doesn't duck into your substantial minimum range.

While initially challenging to players upon initial release of the weapon, as the years have gone on, players have adapted to using the weapon to a point where we feel the initially released range brackets does not give us the intended "high risk" that coincides with the +50% per missile damage increase reward. So we will be reducing both the "optimal" range that provides the full 3 damage and the falloff range from 3 damage to 2 damage by 25 meters to require a bit more necessity to zone your opponent to get the maximum damage payout. At this time we are fine with the potential 3 damage per missile damage output of these weapons, but we want this to be a reward that is a bit more challenging to get. While also really rewarding those more agile 'Mechs that learn how to zone their targets with the weapon system.

So you made the ATM into a weapon that it isn't it. Well, there's your problem, the adaptation of the ATM is ****** up. People are skilled enough eventually will adapt to that sweet-spot anyways, the only real impact you could actually do is to directly nerf the close-range damage.

It's a missile system in BT that is supposed to be super-flexible as a result of it's different ammunition type. Had you implemented ammo-switching, with the 3-damage getting it's much-deserved setup, such as low ammo count, high heat, maximum range. The HE-Ammo 3-Damage would be rewarding because you managed to crawl your way into the fray.

People are already rewarded by getting their spots right, and that is not being ****** by the minimum range, and that was the point of the ability to switch to HE.

InnerSphereNews, on 14 June 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

For the range bracket that constitutes the "ER Missile" type from the lore, We are boosting the damage by 20%. Because ATMs in MechWarrior Online are a composite of 3 different physical missile types from the lore, some attributes of the weapon have to be tuned to account for the other 2/3rds of the intended weapon properties. We feel that ATMs intended vulnerability to AMS, overall velocity, and lower arcs of fire, while appropriate for the other 2/3rds of the damage brackets, have left the bracket intended to represent the "ER Missile" weapon type a little short-changed. So we want to provide a bit of a raw damage boost to the weapon to account for the other drawbacks at firing at extreme ranges to give a bit more utility to the final range bracket for the weapon.

And this is still a ******* dumb implementation because you got a completely poor efficiency in using your ammunition, to a distance that isn't exactly easy to land missiles with, while doing a stupid amount of heat and completely reduced DPS versus actual competent LRMs.

And guess what, the 2-damage bracket isn't even that far, we quite literally, might as well get a couple of steps forward to get a bit more damage boost. It's not the best, but hey it's not ER-Missile stupid. Chances are we'll be in beckon-call range anyways cause the paradigm of ATM is to maximize damage through the use of the Sweet-Spot range.

Your argument shows a complete lack of understanding in how the game is played, and how players think.

1.2 damage is still a full 60% damage decrease for ATMs. An LRM20 would still do 20 damage and 3.60 DPS at ER ranges for 6 heat and 1.081 HPS, where the ATM9 would just do 10.8 damage for 7 heat for 2 DPS, 1.296 HPS.

The problem with your iteration is that, the ER-Missile would be balanced as if it's an HE-Missile, and as a result it has a completely lower DPS and higher heat-generation than the LRMs when used at those ranges.

Those numbers above are a piss-poor trade. Don't give me ******** about "You have damage-ramp-up with ATMs", because that self-defeating argument means that ER-Missile would barely get used anyways. Had you actually implemented Ammo-Switching which means the ATM could function as three different weapons at once, you could play around different heat-generation and DPS as a result:

e.g.

Quote

HE-Ammo: 0-270m, Velocity: 130m/s, Damage: 36/27/18/9, Volley Interval: 0.1s, CD: 7/7/7/7, Heat 9/7/5/3, 60 Ammo/Ton

STD-Ammo: 180m-540m, Velocity: 240m/s, Damage: 24/18/12/6, Volley Interval: 0.1s, CD: 5/5/5/5, Heat 6/4.67/3.33/2, 90 ammo/ton
ER-Ammo: 270m-1150m, Velocity: 400m/s, Damage:12/9/6/3, Volley Interval: 0.1s, CD: 3/3/3/3, Heat 3/2.33/1.67/1, 180 ammo/ton

Look at that, you got proper differentiation.

HE-Missiles are designed for short-range, and is adequately vulnerable to AMS, because it's quite powerful. For comparison the 2x ATM3 does 2.5 DPS versus the SSRM6 doing 2 DPS. SSRMs still have better velocity and bone-tracking. The 2x ATM9 does 6.923 DPS versus 3x SSRM6 doing 6 DPS.

ER-Missiles are designed to hit at longer ranges and is less vulnerable to AMS as compensation for more exposure time, they also have the lower Heat and Cooldown. To put that into perspective the LRM20 does 3.6 DPS with 1.081, while the ATM9 would do 2.37 DPS with 0.613 HPS, the ATM12 is at 2.92 DPS with 0.732 HPS, and right now ATM9 does 1.67 with 1.296 HPS and ATM12 does 2.16 DPS with 1.621 HPS.

STD-Missiles are actually competitive against LRMs at their mid-range bracket, the LRM20 does 3.6 DPS, but the ATM9 does 3.1 DPS, the ATM12 does 3.93 DPS. To be fair, they are competitive right now in terms of output damage, but the heat is killing it's use.

With the scheme I just provided, you got adequate differentiation with different ATM ammo competitive to their range-bracket. HE did suffer a massive nerf, but hey it is different. The use of different ammunition means the ATMs are efficient with their ammo used, the HE missile is penalized by low-ammo count that requires boats to allot more tonnage, likewise it's not a complete waste to use the ATM at ER-Ranges because you aren't idiotically using only 33.33% - 40% of your damage potential -- leading to a waste of 66.66% - 60% of damage.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 June 2019 - 06:12 PM.

[FupDup]

This doesn't really change much. Just walk 35 meters closer to the target and you get your uber damage again.

And really, you don't need to be this amazing "person who knows how to play the game" to do well with ATMs. They're harder than Lurms because you have to consider range and obstacles more but otherwise it's still an auto-aim weapon that puts huge damage in the target's center mass without you needing to actually point your crosshair on the center mass.

That's not to say I like the changes. My reaction is meh. The same design flaws and ridiculous max potential remain and thus this really is not going to have a very noticeable impact in the grand scheme of things. As such I cannot muster much enthusiasm or outrage over this.

Edited by FupDup, 14 June 2019 - 05:31 PM.

[GottFaust]

It does show a surprising lack of knowledge as to how they're played. The 2 damage range is now basically pointless, and anyone using a mobile ATM carrier like the VGL-3 will just need to get slightly closer than they were prior. All this does is punish the heavier ATM mechs like the NGT-D and the SNV-A into going back to LRM spam, and they weren't the "problem" to begin with.

[RickySpanish]

Yes it does rather have a significant impact on the heavier 'Mechs, which were at least hampered by agility which made ATMs more difficult to use. That said it's not a huge impact and if you were genuinely good at using them, you will be fine. But if someone would have just about squeaked by into your minimum range before, now they will do so without a scratch.

Edited by RickySpanish, 14 June 2019 - 05:50 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 14 June 2019 - 05:11 PM, said:

That's not to say I like the changes. My reaction is meh. The same design flaws and ridiculous max potential remain and thus this really is not going to have a very noticeable impact in the grand scheme of things. As such I cannot muster much enthusiasm or outrage over this.

It's not the change I am outraged about, but the apparent lack of insight and understanding. They're in charge of the game!

They still don't get why ER-Range is a stupid distance to use the ATMs, and they still don't get why the HE-Range nerf isn't exactly significant compared to what they highlighted that 50% damage increase isn't risky enough.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 June 2019 - 05:56 PM.

[crazytimes]

Oh good, 1.2 damage for those ocassions where not a single enemy player has even 1 AMS.

These are the changes the community was crying for. MWO is saved.

[Remover of Obstacles]

crazytimes, on 15 June 2019 - 12:58 AM, said:

Oh good, 1.2 damage for those ocassions where not a single enemy player has even 1 AMS.

These are the changes the community was crying for. MWO is saved.

Let's do the math here. ATM 12 vs 1 AMS
Damage = 0

Now with the 20% buff.
0 x 1.2 = 0

...


Did I miss the part were the non-lore PGI inspired deadzone was being removed?

That was a change players actually want.

At least reduce the deadzone by the distance taken off the top end.

Still a screw ( PI x R^2 - huge area reduction), but not making the weapon system completely unappealing and outshone by similar lighter systems.

Going to see a lot more Lrms and less pilots.

[Tordin]

The6thMessenger, on 14 June 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

The Close-Range changes are dumb. Let me guess, people who actually play the game managed to get you murdered by a couple of close-ranged ATM volleys?

Agreed. Heh, not only that might be the reason, you got the same unadaptable missile whiners that hate lurms "because no skillz" that might have hooked on to mock and lobby againt the ATM too. "Because missiles"..

[LordNothing]

i consider atms a quasi-brawl weapon. in their medium range bracket they are passable, but i never use them in the extended range bracket. if the had like twice the velocity they would be better. i kind of think they should be treated like multi-stage rockets, every time you get to the end of a range bracket, they would light the next stage and pick up a little more velocity. missiles should arrive at long range targets in less time than lerms.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 June 2019 - 05:02 AM.

[Appogee]

I'm kind of tired of massed unaimed CT-seeking ATM spam. I don't see these changes will do much - if anything - to change that.

[GottFaust]

Appogee, on 15 June 2019 - 05:10 AM, said:

I'm kind of tired of massed unaimed CT-seeking ATM spam. I don't see these changes will do much - if anything - to change that.

It won't.
You'll just see less Supernovas and Night Gyrs and more Huntsmans and Vapor Eagles.
If you're tired of ATMs though just bring a single AMS. They're so insanely vulnerable to AMS that a single one can remove 2/3rds of the missiles from 2ATM12.

Edited by GottFaust, 15 June 2019 - 06:52 AM.

[Vorpal Puppy]

Just like other times, the problem (assuming their really is one) was one particular mech - the Vapor Eagle - not the weapon system.

[FupDup]

Vorpal Puppy, on 15 June 2019 - 12:09 PM, said:

Just like other times, the problem (assuming their really is one) was one particular mech - the Vapor Eagle - not the weapon system.

If we nerf the Veagle and call it a day, then what happens if we ever got another mech with similar design traits? Would we have to nerf that one too?

Your argument is basically like saying that we should have never made any nerfs to Clan tech after the initial release of the Clans, just nerf the TBR and SCR and the problem would be solved. I admit that I fell into that trap myself in the beginning, but as time went on and more mechs got released it became clear that we couldn't solve the issue by just nerfing the "Holy Trinity" mechs.

It's not like ATMs are only good on the Veagle. VGL has better synergy with ATMs than any other mech by far, but you can do ATMs well enough on a number of other mechs like the Hunchie IIC, Huntsman, Night Gyr, Sun Spider, Supernova, etc. The VGL just so happens to unlock the full power of ATMs in a way that those other chassis cannot.

Conversely, the VGL has a wide variety of builds it can use but those don't get nearly as much playtime or negative attention as the ATM build. Maybe it's because the ATMs are really really strong?

Edited by FupDup, 15 June 2019 - 12:25 PM.

[MrXanthios]

am I reading complaints about the strongest, most overpowered weapon system at the moment?

[Tordin]

Yeah... owerpowered.. In that one niche bracket range and also with missiles easly getting shredded against AMS. Oh.. you didnt use AMS did you? Not to mention the velocity. Adapt, use friggin cover, AMS, ECM and so on. Be on the move, be aware. Peekaboo em, get under the min range.
Im just waiting for the fella saying LRM are OP because he forgot his head in the mech bay about how to counter em.

Edited by Tordin, 15 June 2019 - 02:24 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 15 June 2019 - 04:51 AM, said:

i consider atms a quasi-brawl weapon. in their medium range bracket they are passable, but i never use them in the extended range bracket. if the had like twice the velocity they would be better. i kind of think they should be treated like multi-stage rockets, every time you get to the end of a range bracket, they would light the next stage and pick up a little more velocity. missiles should arrive at long range targets in less time than lerms.

But the problem is that, you still get a lot of heat for what is essentially 1/3rd of the damage, you still chew up the same amount of ammunition to 1/3rd of the damage.

It's a total waste considering that you CAN just walk closer and do 2 damage anyways, and even then the 2 damage is also a bit of a waste in terms of heat when compared to LRMs at those range band.

MrXanthios, on 15 June 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

am I reading complaints about the strongest, most overpowered weapon system at the moment?

No. Complaints of why PGI's Balancing Department are shortsighted.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 June 2019 - 06:12 PM.

[LordNothing]

The6thMessenger, on 15 June 2019 - 06:05 PM, said:

But the problem is that, you still get a lot of heat for what is essentially 1/3rd of the damage, you still chew up the same amount of ammunition to 1/3rd of the game. It's a total waste considering that you CAN just walk closer and do 2 damage anyways.

theres that too, which is why its relegated to quasi-brawling (or perhaps short-to-moderate range skirmishing would be a better way to describe what its for). the weapon is very strong in the short range bracket and rewards threading the needle and punishes anyone who cant tell that its firing atms and not lerms. its functional bias is certainly slanted to the shorter range brackets. getting a bit more damage in the long range bracket helps but its still going to be stronger in the eye of the needle.

[Appogee]

Vorpal Puppy, on 15 June 2019 - 12:09 PM, said:

Just like other times, the problem (assuming their really is one) was one particular mech - the Vapor Eagle - not the weapon system.

Yep.

Which was inevitable ever since they made Hardpoint Creep a key sales strategy.

But it's been clear for some time that PGI don't actually care about MWO. "Balancing" is now just used as a surrogate for "being seen to do something".

It's sad to consider what great heights this game could achieve if its developer actually cared about it.

[Remover of Obstacles]

The6thMessenger, on 15 June 2019 - 06:05 PM, said:

......even then the 2 damage is also a bit of a waste in terms of heat when compared to LRMs at those range band.

Waste of heat and more vulnerable to AMS. So LuRMs win out again due to missile cloud count.

[The6thMessenger]

Remover of Obstacles, on 15 June 2019 - 07:36 PM, said:

Waste of heat and more vulnerable to AMS. So LuRMs win out again due to missile cloud count.

Yup.

The only niche that the ATM has is it's close-range damage, and it's a completely narrow band in comparison, but just because it's so good that people learn to put up with it.