229 replies to this topic

[denAirwalkerrr]

Best part how he talks off his *** with 0 proofs of cheating in game.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 01 March 2020 - 03:07 PM.

[Buster Machine 0]

Brauer, on 01 March 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

1. Why would people cheat in a niche dying game? Why do you want/expect PGI to devote resources to adding a public anti cheat system (that imo is unnecessary) when they already are neglecting the game? Wouldn't you want them to devote any meager resources tossed towards MWO to content instead as that's the only hope of the game seeing any resurgence?
2. Just because some players are bad enough that they think competent, or highly skilled, players are cheating, does not mean more resources need to be devoted to anti-cheat. If anything it's an indictment of the matchmaker which was always intended to lump everyone into tier 1 eventually.
3. People already moan about Solaris city, lrms, and plenty of other things killing their fps, why the heck should pgi cripple those further with this anti-cheat albatross?

Bottom line no anti cheat system (retroactive or proactive) is perfect, but we don't have a cheating problem in this game of any notable magnitude, so there's no need for a change. Instead maybe focus on teaching the mechanics of the game. Learning to at least better understand the game will ro more to keep a player from making hackusations than some janky anti-cheat program.

This justification right here and thinking is what led MWO to its current state.

1. People cheat regardless of the game population. They cheat because they don't have enough skill to play the game, the same applies to smurf accounts. If PGI wants to make this game a success wouldn't it make sense to adopt a system that 100% of all competitive PVP arena shooters have?

2. It's important to instill confidence in the product, otherwise people will justifying /uninstall MWO because it's filled with "cheaters". And I'm sure it happens.

3. What's more important? Having a feature that all mainstream games have? Or having features that people "Might" want.

Of course no anti cheat system is perfect, but having one is better than none. Or at least publicly announcing that there are anti cheat measures in place. Cheating and learning how to play are two separate things, it is human nature to automatically blame the game or other players instead of themselves when they hit a wall in the learning curve. It is important for the longevity of the game to instill confidence in it, otherwise they will start blaming things other than themselves.

[denAirwalkerrr]

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

This justification right here and thinking is what led MWO to its current state.

1. People cheat regardless of the game population. They cheat because they don't have enough skill to play the game, the same applies to smurf accounts. If PGI wants to make this game a success wouldn't it make sense to adopt a system that 100% of all competitive PVP arena shooters have?

2. It's important to instill confidence in the product, otherwise people will justifying /uninstall MWO because it's filled with "cheaters". And I'm sure it happens.

3. What's more important? Having a feature that all mainstream games have? Or having features that people "Might" want.

Of course no anti cheat system is perfect, but having one is better than none. Or at least publicly announcing that there are anti cheat measures in place. Cheating and learning how to play are two separate things, it is human nature to automatically blame the game or other players instead of themselves when they hit a wall in the learning curve. It is important for the longevity of the game to instill confidence in it, otherwise they will start blaming things other than themselves.

There are measures in place. Called report button and support email adress if you have proof of someone cheating.

P.S. Since freaking Civil War update over 3 years ago game only had minor bad balance tweaks and mechpack which aren't happening for half a year at this point. Hmmm... I wonder why game is dead.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 01 March 2020 - 03:44 PM.

[Brauer]

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

This justification right here and thinking is what led MWO to its current state.

1. People cheat regardless of the game population. They cheat because they don't have enough skill to play the game, the same applies to smurf accounts. If PGI wants to make this game a success wouldn't it make sense to adopt a system that 100% of all competitive PVP arena shooters have?

2. It's important to instill confidence in the product, otherwise people will justifying /uninstall MWO because it's filled with "cheaters". And I'm sure it happens.

3. What's more important? Having a feature that all mainstream games have? Or having features that people "Might" want.

Of course no anti cheat system is perfect, but having one is better than none. Or at least publicly announcing that there are anti cheat measures in place. Cheating and learning how to play are two separate things, it is human nature to automatically blame the game or other players instead of themselves when they hit a wall in the learning curve. It is important for the longevity of the game to instill confidence in it, otherwise they will start blaming things other than themselves.

1. It doesn't seem like PGI gives a damn what happens to the game at this point. Also, just because other games have it does not mean MWO needs it. It does mean it's an option if there's a need, but again where is the need? You have a solution in search of a problem, and that's no way to make decisions.
2. People are uninstalling because PGI has basically abandoned the game. Anti-cheat has nothing to do with it.
3. All games also have content, but pgi isn't adding any more of that. Think about this. What's more better having a perfect anti cheat and no content, or great content and our current reporting options?

If you can name one instance of cheating in recent days that has gone unaddressed I'd love to hear about it. I doubt you can.

I'd also argue it is not human nature to blame the game, cheaters, etc., that's just a crutch people rely on to soothe their egos if they aren't willing to examine their own performance or improve.

[Kurlon]

RE the theoretical lack of an anti-cheat system, PGI's own words on the topic:

https://mwomercs.com...party-programs/
https://mwomercs.com...on-cheat-tools/

https://mwomercs.com...d-for-cheating/

TLDR - Don't expect Punk Nuker 3k ™ logos at boot, but also don't be confident that there isn't anything happening to catch you being naughty.

[Buster Machine 0]

Prototelis, on 01 March 2020 - 02:54 PM, said:

Ever hear of hit boxes? You should look them up.

Yeah, that's why you torso twist to shield damaged hitboxes.

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Memory scanning is performance heavy, inefficient, an ineffective.

There are anti cheat companies that have developed more streamlined methods for anti-cheat, PGI could easily license their technology instead of developing their own.

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lol, more tin foil. This game is dying because it lacks new content.

This game is dying because PGI developed cash grab content instead of content that would ensure its longevity.

[denAirwalkerrr]

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 04:21 PM, said:

This game is dying because PGI developed cash grab content instead of content that would ensure its longevity.

Wait I though it was absence of anti-cheat.

[Prototelis]

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yeah, that's why you torso twist to shield damaged hitboxes.

Yeah, thats why a corsair is naturally less adept at using an ISXL engine because the right torso hit area is HUGE.

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There are anti cheat companies that have developed more streamlined methods for anti-cheat, PGI could easily license their technology instead of developing their own.

No benefit to the cost; current system works fine.

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This game is dying because PGI developed cash grab content instead of content that would ensure its longevity.

ITT; your assertions that people leave the game due to cheating are proven wrong by.... yourself?

[Buster Machine 0]

denAirwalkerrr, on 01 March 2020 - 04:25 PM, said:

Wait I though it was absence of anti-cheat.

You don't think Anti-cheat is content? And no. Multiple things killed MWO, not just one thing.

[Brauer]

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

You don't think Anti-cheat is content? And no. Multiple things killed MWO, not just one thing.

Anti-cheat is not content.

Nobody plays a game because it has a great a anti-cheat system. They will leave a game if cheating is rampant, but it isn't so no worries there.

Edited by Brauer, 01 March 2020 - 04:35 PM.

[Buster Machine 0]

Prototelis, on 01 March 2020 - 04:26 PM, said:

Yeah, thats why a corsair is naturally less adept at using an ISXL engine because the right torso hit area is HUGE.

Which helps with spreading damage because once again lrms can't pinpoint.

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No benefit to the cost; current system works fine.

Sure, which is why people are complaining about the lack of an anti cheat and cheaters.

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ITT; your assertions that people leave the game due to cheating are proven wrong by.... yourself?

Are you so desperate to win this argument that you're going to start arguing semantics? You don't think video games can contain an anti-cheat system?

[Brauer]

People complain about cheaters because they get dunked on and aren't willing to recognize their own mistakes or when they have been outplayed. The software's not the problem and I seriously doubt that people would stop complaining about cheaters if there was more public anti-cheating efforts.

[Buster Machine 0]

Brauer, on 01 March 2020 - 04:34 PM, said:

Anti-cheat is not content.

Nobody plays a game because it has a great a anti-cheat system. They will leave a game if cheating is rampant, but it isn't so no worries there.

I disagree, do I have to break out a dictionary link? Video games can "contain" an anti-cheat system, and you're right, nobody plays a game because it "contains" an anti-cheat system, but people do stay and keep on playing because having one inspires player confidence in the product.

ITT: people try to argue that games can't contain anti-cheat systems because it's not content.

[Buster Machine 0]

Brauer, on 01 March 2020 - 04:47 PM, said:

People complain about cheaters because they get dunked on and aren't willing to recognize their own mistakes or when they have been outplayed.

I agree, people are quick to blame others instead of facing their own mistakes. It's human nature, just like counter clockwise Nascar rotations.

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The software's not the problem and I seriously doubt that people would stop complaining about cheaters if there was more public anti-cheating efforts.

No, but it'd definitely shut up all the people that say there are cheaters because there is no anti-cheat system, even a publicly stated anti-cheat system logo on the startup splash would work. A win win for everyone and a significant reduction in hackusation posts on this forum.

[Kurlon]

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 04:48 PM, said:

ITT: people try to argue that games can't contain anti-cheat systems because it's not content.

It's not content. Maps, Mechs, Skins, Game Modes, those are content. Anti-cheat is a buzzword/feature. The two are separate. Adding anti-cheat doesn't change the game play at all. (Again, in this case it's there so it's even less, it'd just be adding a logo to the splash screen.) As noted on Reddit, complaints of rampant cheating persist even in the 'top tier' examples of F2P games, paid games, any game where it's player vs player, and even some that are PvE. Adding it won't change that dynamic, as noted above the vast majority of people calling "Cheater!" are incorrectly attributing hacks to what is actually a mix of opponent skill, luck, or player mistakes. So yes, if there are dev cycles available for MWO, having them go to actual content that alters game play, like maps, game modes, etc would keep me playing vs hearing they've spent that same time poking at an anti-cheat knob.

To be honest, about the only time I ever think about anti-cheat engines with other games is when I have to put in stupid anti-virus exceptions for them just to play the dang game, which as an IT and security eng pisses me off and is pretty much a guaranteed way to get me to uninstall. Outside of that, I just don't think about it.

[Brauer]

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 04:58 PM, said:

I agree, people are quick to blame others instead of facing their own mistakes. It's human nature, just like counter clockwise Nascar rotations.



No, but it'd definitely shut up all the people that say there are cheaters because there is no anti-cheat system, even a publicly stated anti-cheat system logo on the startup splash would work. A win win for everyone and a significant reduction in hackusation posts on this forum.

So since PGI already has anti-cheat efforts they should just slap a "Piranha Games Anti-Cheat System" logo up there and that will end the hackusations?

The people making hackusations are already pretty removed from reality if they think there's much cheating in this game. A splash screen highlighting piranha's efforts or a third party system wouldn't stop them. In fact, there's a good chance it'd make it worse at this point because they could argue PGI wouldn't have changed anything if there wasn't a substantial cheating problem.

[Buster Machine 0]

Kurlon, on 01 March 2020 - 04:58 PM, said:

It's not content. Maps, Mechs, Skins, Game Modes, those are content. Anti-cheat is a buzzword/feature. The two are separate. Adding anti-cheat doesn't change the game play at all. (Again, in this case it's there so it's even less, it'd just be adding a logo to the splash screen.) As noted on Reddit, complaints of rampant cheating persist even in the 'top tier' examples of F2P games, paid games, any game where it's player vs player, and even some that are PvE. Adding it won't change that dynamic, as noted above the vast majority of people calling "Cheater!" are incorrectly attributing hacks to what is actually a mix of opponent skill, luck, or player mistakes. So yes, if there are dev cycles available for MWO, having them go to actual content that alters game play, like maps, game modes, etc would keep me playing vs hearing they've spent that same time poking at an anti-cheat knob.

To be honest, about the only time I ever think about anti-cheat engines with other games is when I have to put in stupid anti-virus exceptions for them just to play the dang game, which as an IT and security eng pisses me off and is pretty much a guaranteed way to get me to uninstall. Outside of that, I just don't think about it.

noun
noun: content; plural noun: contents
the things that are held or included in something.

Why are people so adamant against something that should have been in MWO since the beginning and would have nothing but benefits for both the gameplay and community?

And once again, 100% of all successful competitive arena shooters have a proactive anti-cheat system in place. Don't you want MWO to be one of those successful arena shooters?

You need to see how this issue looks from the other side. Players defending that a this game doesn't need anti-cheat software is like asking for a law to make **** illegal, and then a bunch of individuals leap up to defend the merits of not making **** illegal. Makes all the defenders look like *********.

Edited by ChenGGez, 01 March 2020 - 05:36 PM.

[Prototelis]

ChenGGez, on 01 March 2020 - 04:42 PM, said:

Which helps with spreading damage because once again lrms can't pinpoint.

Which doesn't mitigate how terrible the corsair's hitboxes are, why running an XL in one is bad, and why you shouldn't be promoting it even if asked.

If lrms do get lrms through, the right torso is still more likely to be hit because it it's shape and size. LRMs getting through is hardly the issue however. It's just bad, and there is no reason to run or promote running XL in a corsair or any wide boy IS assult.

[Kurlon]

Context: A concept you seem unable to grasp

If you want to toss dictionaries instead of actual context, this conversation won't get far. I provided the supporting details for how I was using the words, which is supported by the dictionary too. The english language is neat like that.

To go back to the discussion, #1 as previously pointed out, there are ALREADY anti-cheat provisions in the game, PGI has publicly stated as much. Just because it's not Brand X's package doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does the lack of of anything bragging about it in game remove it from the table either.

#2 I've never said I'm against anti-cheat. I've specifically said, based on the observations that PGI DOES have anti-cheat measures on hand, uses them, has a server authoritative arch that precludes 99% of common cheats from being possible, and in game I just don't see that much 'suspicious' game play that I'd prefer what limited dev time we do get for the game to go towards adding actual game impacting content to keep the game alive. The only area outside of new content that warrants dev time at the moment, in my opinion is looking at the recent increase in heat bug incidents. Stomping that out would be a change that would actively, positively impact my game experience. Time spent bodging in someone else's anti-cheat package into an aging game engine at best does nothing to improve my game experience as I'm already not seeing cheating in action, and at worst triggers an uninstall if it behaves badly with anti-virus/etc like many do. (Just had a friend told by LoL tech support to completely disable Bitdefender when playing, not just exclude it... W T F?!)

[Buster Machine 0]

Prototelis, on 01 March 2020 - 05:29 PM, said:

Which doesn't mitigate how terrible the corsair's hitboxes are, why running an XL in one is bad, and why you shouldn't be promoting it even if asked.

If lrms do get lrms through, the right torso is still more likely to be hit because it it's shape and size. LRMs getting through is hardly the issue however. It's just bad, and there is no reason to run or promote running XL in a corsair or any wide boy IS assult.

Sure there are merits to XL builds.

1. The mech moves faster
2. The mech can carry more weapons.
3. Glass cannon builds are usually the meta in most build games.

If you know how to twist or utilize cover, XL builds are perfectly fine and survivable for casual play. I can't say anything about using one for hardcore or competitive play though.