53 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

John McClintock, on 03 July 2019 - 12:41 PM, said:

You ain't seen nuthin yet, sweetheart. Eff the meta.

Well... the meta is to max out your armor on your torso. Why don't you go nekked then, since you don't want to do that?

Meta=common sense

[Prototelis]

All games have a meta.

ALL GAMES.

[gooddragon1]

Prototelis, on 03 July 2019 - 03:29 PM, said:

All games have a meta.

ALL GAMES.

MWO somewhat tries to make the meta less reliable with different environmental heat, terrain, and mission objectives. Not sure how effectively, but it's something.

[VonBruinwald]

Nightbird, on 03 July 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

Well... the meta is to max out your armor on your torso. Why don't you go nekked then, since you don't want to do that?

Meta=common sense

Meta=Try-hard builds

PUG-Life = Atypical builds

Potato Tier = The Nekkid build

The confusion lies with the try-hards who believe atypical builds are potato tier. It's an easy mistake to make, when you're incapable of playing off-meta.

[Prototelis]

Most atypical builds ARE potato tier because they aren't optimized or completely lack weapon synergy.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Felbombling, on 03 July 2019 - 03:55 AM, said:

Beyond that, I'm not certain a marriage between Heavy PPC weapons and stealth armour will be a successful one, Frag. Remember, Stealth Armour hampers your heat dissipation to a large degree.

The Stealth armour is only 'cause I sort of want to experiment with it on an assault mech and also 'cause there is tonnage and slots for it. I intend to stay 500m away and use my ECM shield to blast my HPPCs and MRM 20 and only use stealth when closing the distance and switch it off when engaging at 150m. It's wonky, I know. It's mainly for "science" lol. The only other stealth mech I have is the Paralyser.

Jackal Noble, on 03 July 2019 - 10:10 AM, said:

Lol, who actually gets builds off of Grimmechs? (Oh that’s right, the atm36 Veagle tards) And if you do, you are missing out on half the fun of actually figuring stuff out on your own. Besides many of the builds are off.

Grim Mechs is a solid enough site for information. I tried their 2 UAC5 + 1 UAC10 dakka Black Widow and I didn't like it one bit. I changed the loadout completely whereas the recommendations for other mechs on there are pretty good. So, we can't just outright ignore what's on there based off of what one or two builds that "we" think are silly.

[Prototelis]

There are not enough slots on an IS assault for stealth armor to be viable. You severely compromise the amount of firepower, engine, and cooling you can bring by running stealth.

There is no point in playing an assault with stealth outside of memes. You're basically relegating yourself to the loadout of a bad heavy for a niche gimmick better suited towards smol fast bois.

Edited by Prototelis, 03 July 2019 - 08:34 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Prototelis, on 03 July 2019 - 08:25 PM, said:

There are not slots on an IS assault for stealth armor. You severely compromise the amount of firepower, engine, and cooling you can bring by running stealth.

There is no point in playing an assault with the loadout of a bad heavy for a niche gimmick better suited towards smol fast bois.

Well, that ECM Hatamoto loadout that I posted can be tweaked by going with only Light Ferro for 1 extra DHS and stripping a tiny bit more armour or leave that DHS out and go with stealth. Or than that, I could put SRM 6+As instead of 2 MRM10s with Endo and skip on some DHS 'cause there aren't enough slots but a lot of tonnage. I could go heavy on bigger MRMs and some MLs but I already have the Marauder 9M(s) doing the same. I haven't found a build on Grim Mechs for any Hatamoto apart for the 27W. So, I'm open to ideas.

[Prototelis]

That hot tomato build you posted has poor sustained DPS either way.

You can do the same build on a grasshopper with better mounts, more cooling, better speed, and probably more lasers.

Edited by Prototelis, 03 July 2019 - 08:45 PM.

[Flyby215]

Jackal Noble, on 03 July 2019 - 10:10 AM, said:

Wow, the dumb vitriol in this thread is real.
H-27 can run a pretty solid Rac2x3 with 4 er meds while going just shy of 70 kph and has major armor quirks.

I get annoyed with the vitriol as well; and agree with the 27W sentiment. I run mine 3xRAC2 and 4ML (no ER variant), because I'm terrible at heat management.

I enjoy it for what it is. Decent damage, kinda tanky. I run an XL engine to differentiate the mech from others in my stable that run the exact same weapons. The huge arms make it somewhat safer (not really) though based on the comments I get in matches people seem surprised I have it XL.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Prototelis, on 03 July 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:

That hot tomato build you posted has poor sustained DPS either way.

You can do the same build on a grasshopper with better mounts, more cooling, better speed, and probably more lasers.

Yes, I know that. I want something for that ECM Hatamoto however and I don't have a proper build for it except what I've posted that makes use of the quirks. Surprisingly, the Heat is manageable if you space out the HPPC + MRM fire after firing them together simultaneously the 3rd time around. It isn't the best, obviously but I guess when Grim Mechs don't have a build for it, then it just isn't worth the time. I just want it to check the stealth.

[Kubernetes]

What exactly is the "meta" these days? Is there a meta build in solo queue? I don't think so. It seems like there are "best practices" for builds, and some favored chassis, but it's not like one build just dominates games. Maybe the MC-II-B w/uac5/10 is the closest thing, but it doesn't dominate in the way some mechs and builds did in the past. The IV-4 is a top tier SQ mech using MRMs. The Top Dog and Vulcan are excellent as well, using MPLs. Vapor Eagles with UAC2s, ERPPCs or ATMs. Assaults with heavy gauss or Lbx10s. There are a bunch of other good mechs and builds out there, but those are the ones I use with some regularity.

There's no clear-cut meta anymore, not like "PPCs, gauss, and JJs on a Phract3D/Victor/Highlander," which was the meta when I first started playing. If you didn't play with those builds, you got stomped by the guys who did. These "non-meta" builds people like to post aren't non-meta, they're just bad. Think about the logic behind your builds, and then think about how games actually play out in practice.

Edited by Kubernetes, 03 July 2019 - 10:29 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Flyby215, on 03 July 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

I get annoyed with the vitriol as well; and agree with the 27W sentiment. I run mine 3xRAC2 and 4ML (no ER variant), because I'm terrible at heat management.

I enjoy it for what it is. Decent damage, kinda tanky. I run an XL engine to differentiate the mech from others in my stable that run the exact same weapons. The huge arms make it somewhat safer (not really) though based on the comments I get in matches people seem surprised I have it XL.

Ya the 27 is one of the better Hatamotos, in large part because it’s engine is less limited. Decent velo quirks to boot. I switch often between standard and ER lasers. It’s odd, when I run light engines my IS mechs seem weirdly more vulnerable to losing a torso.

[VonBruinwald]

VonBruinwald, on 03 July 2019 - 05:27 PM, said:

The confusion lies with the try-hards who believe atypical builds are potato tier. It's an easy mistake to make, when you're incapable of playing off-meta.

Prototelis, on 03 July 2019 - 08:45 PM, said:

That hot tomato build you posted has poor sustained DPS either way.

You can do the same build on a grasshopper with better mounts, more cooling, better speed, and probably more lasers.

This is what I'm on about. You're comparing an atypical build to the meta. It will never be on par because the meta is designed to be superior. That doesn't instantly make everything else a tomato build. If meta builds are all that matters we might as well as ask PGI to do a "balance pass" and remove 3/4 of the mechs from the game.

End of the day if someone can make the build work, it isn't potato-tier. Either that or the pilot is superior to you because they can.

[Kubernetes]

The build is bad not because it's non-meta or atypical, but because it's badly thought out and will play badly in practice. Sure, some people can "make it work," but those people likely have little desire to play something like that.

[John McClintock]

Kubernetes, on 03 July 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

What exactly is the "meta" these days? Is there a meta build in solo queue? I don't think so. It seems like there are "best practices" for builds, and some favored chassis, but it's not like one build just dominates games. Maybe the MC-II-B w/uac5/10 is the closest thing, but it doesn't dominate in the way some mechs and builds did in the past. The IV-4 is a top tier SQ mech using MRMs. The Top Dog and Vulcan are excellent as well, using MPLs. Vapor Eagles with UAC2s, ERPPCs or ATMs. Assaults with heavy gauss or Lbx10s. There are a bunch of other good mechs and builds out there, but those are the ones I use with some regularity.

There's no clear-cut meta anymore, not like "PPCs, gauss, and JJs on a Phract3D/Victor/Highlander," which was the meta when I first started playing. If you didn't play with those builds, you got stomped by the guys who did. These "non-meta" builds people like to post aren't non-meta, they're just bad. Think about the logic behind your builds, and then think about how games actually play out in practice.

The only meta is a personal meta.

If you prefer to brawl, your meta is different than someone who likes to snipe.

My meta involves medium pulse lasers, for the most part. But LPL and S-SRMs are also a big things for me.

I used to have a different meta.

Your meta is also based on the type of people you play with. Different tiers may warrant different meta.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 04 July 2019 - 04:58 AM, said:

This is what I'm on about. You're comparing an atypical build to the meta.

That build isn't bad because its atypical, its bad because it lacks any sort of synergy, has poor cooling, and can (minus the pointless MRMs) be done on a mech 15 tons lighter.

I know what you're on about;

[A Really Old Clan Dude]

Playing against both of these mechs I dont fear them for any reason.

Not like a vapour eagle, urbie, fafnir. All of which you have to use a different tactic with.

[MrXanthios]

People are lazy and do not feel like twisting... That's the only reason you are seeing so many critics.. both mechs are extremely solid and used in the correct way, they are devastating

[Insignus]

FRAGTAST1C, on 03 July 2019 - 02:59 AM, said:

I'm thinking of buying them. I'm sort of ok with the ECM on the 28TR Hatamoto so that I can do something like this... HTM-28TR
just to test out the Stealth Armour and defend myself with the missiles and MLs when enemies get too close for the HPPCs to be effective. I could switch the MRM 10s with SRM6s or something.

As for the Hero, I'm leaning towards LBX10 and 4 SRM6+A or 2 LBX10 and 4 SRM6+A like this... SHUGO

I'm not entirely sure what the Charger is supposed to be though.

I checked the GrimMech's database and they don't have builds for the Hatamoto variants that I'm interested (probably 'cause my choices are crap) and the Charger is treated like a poor man's Assault that didn't want to be an assault mech in the first place. I mean, the speed is slow for them to skirmish properly and they can't get enough cooling without turning into a coffin.

I run stealth mediums exclusively, but your post caught my eye for wanting to try out stealth armor, so while some valid points have been made, I'll pop in some additional info.

So, Stealth Armor as you're aware debuffs your heat dissipation. So as others have mentioned, high heat builds become problematic.
One way that folks counter this is using the stealth armor and positioning to maximize the impact of your limited shot count (Rear armor shots), but that generally only works with mechs that have the speed to flank folks, not so much with slower mechs. So this strategy is going to be non-viable with the chassis and spec in question (For Context, most flanking stealth mechs go above 100+, I personally set mine for 121.5)

The other reason folks use stealth armor is to hurt the enemies ability to target your vitals, or to make oneself less noticeable in a brawl. There's some anecdotal evidence about the former proposition, but that will dissipate at higher tiers. The latter is most useful for smaller mechs tho, so no matter if you've got a dorito or not, a PPC big boy mech is going to get targeted.

The other issue I have with your build is the choice of weapon types - if your goal is to be a sniper mech or to be unobtrusive, missiles and PPCs are immediate attention grabbers that will draw your enemies line of sight back to your firing point.

For this reason, most successful stealth builds are either ambush builds that go loud and fast with high alpha short range weapons, or what I do, which is strike and fade with less visible weapons.

HTM as a chassis lacks the speed for ambush tactics, but you could pull off the latter using pulse lasers, specifically either 4x LPLs, or 2x LPLs with 2x MPLs and an assortment of missiles.

TL;DR - Stealth assaults are pretty hard to pull off, because they lack the speed and profile to get position undetected. Only one I've seen it work decent on are things like the Cyclops 11-P.