26 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

Insignus, on 31 July 2019 - 07:18 AM, said:

From a franchise standpoint - one of the dividing lines between Japanese Mecha and Real Robot type IPs and more western IPs like BattleTech is the usage of melee - Mecha and RR favoring more conventional melee designs such as swords, axes, etc that require human-like motions, which make for great fights/duels, so they emphasize melee, whereas BattleTech is a lot more flexible on how melee is employed, even though it de-emphasizes it, because it focuses a lot more on the militaristic aspects of Giant Robots.

Go Nagai's giant robots (Mazinger Z, Steel Jeeg, UFO Grandizer, Great Mazinga, Getta Robo, etc,.) never use a gun, a rifle or a cannon. Every thing is physical combat, swords, axes, saw blades, scythes, giant drills. If there are any ranged weapon, its usually an axe thrown at you, rocket punches, chest beams and missiles, The result is that everything felt like there was steel and weight; robots show the breaks and cracks of combat, limbs gets torn off, wires dangle from the wounds, arcing and sparking as liquids flow out like blood.

The success of Go Nagai's giant robots ushered in Japan's golden era of giant robots and mecha. The usage of guns actually demean the sense of the giant robot, the idea that it can be brought down a by a few shots, which happened by the time you reached Gundam and Macross, just didn't feel as awesome as having a giant robot so invincible, you need to hack it up piece by piece.

The main difference between Giant Robot vs. Mecha is that Giant Robots are unique. Giant Robots are one of a kind, they don't make copies, not mass produced, so special they are unique, even god like. Mecha are mass produced and they are common. In terms of narrative, giant robots are extremely difficult to destroy, but mecha are blow up as often as common fodder, unless its said hero mecha.

1970s was Japan's Era of Giant Robots, but the 1980s was the Era of Mecha.

Generally, by the time you are in the Mecha era, the reason for using swords is for the Rule of Cool and Japanese anime fixation with samurai and all that. Sword has a much deeper meaning in Japanese culture than it does with the West, a context that can also be spiritual.

In terms of genre, Gundam is Mecha. So is Macross. But Neon Genesis Evangelion and Gurren Laggan are Giant Robots.

Edited by Anjian, 04 August 2019 - 12:04 AM.

[Anjian]

NFSRacer, on 30 July 2019 - 11:16 AM, said:

So, I've been toying around with the idea of making a Steel Battalion-inspired MechWarrior VR project that I've had rattling around in my head since late March. Issue is, there's a few things that I'm highly curious about with the lore of MechWarrior, namely just how often melee/hand-to-hand combat was in the series. I know the Hatchetman is often viewed as the first actual BattleMech to feature melee combat, however I'm referring to eras such as during the Clan Invasion and even within the Third Succession War. Does anyone know anything about this aspect of 'Mech combat?

Gladiatorial combat like on Solaris should see melee happen. Its the reason why Yen Lo Wang carried a shield.

PC Battletech game, melee is definitely one of the tools you have, and you will be amazed at the animations that show one mech kicking another mech right at the crotch, or something smaller, like a Jenner, ram its head at the crotch of a bigger mech.

Death From Above is a standard thing with Clan Jade Falcon, although there is nothing stopping anyone from using it. Later, Clan Jade Falcon even created mechs that were optimized for DFA.

Elementals are said to cling to the backs of mechs, and tear the armor up piece by piece.

Edited by Anjian, 04 August 2019 - 12:13 AM.

[Khobai]

Melee should be added to MWO.

However it should only be added for new mechs like the Hatchetman that specifically use melee weapons.

Because adding melee for every single mech in the game is simply not feasible.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Khobai, on 04 August 2019 - 05:27 AM, said:

Melee should be added to MWO.

However it should only be added for new mechs like the Hatchetman that specifically use melee weapons.

Because adding melee for every single mech in the game is simply not feasible.

I think the Hatchetman would have been a cool addition to MWO if melee was added (and it worked well). I'm still hoping it makes it's way into MW5 somehow, and that the HBS version makes it in. The HBS version does look similar to the PGI aesthetic and that Hatchet animation (although not canon) does look amazing...




I could see something similar for the Axman as well.

[Koniving]

Anjian, on 03 August 2019 - 11:42 PM, said:

Go Nagai's giant robots (Mazinger Z, Steel Jeeg, UFO Grandizer, Great Mazinga, Getta Robo, etc,.) never use a gun, a rifle or a cannon. Every thing is physical combat, swords, axes, saw blades, scythes, giant drills. If there are any ranged weapon, its usually an axe thrown at you, rocket punches, chest beams and missiles, The result is that everything felt like there was steel and weight; robots show the breaks and cracks of combat, limbs gets torn off, wires dangle from the wounds, arcing and sparking as liquids flow out like blood.

The success of Go Nagai's giant robots ushered in Japan's golden era of giant robots and mecha. The usage of guns actually demean the sense of the giant robot, the idea that it can be brought down a by a few shots, which happened by the time you reached Gundam and Macross, just didn't feel as awesome as having a giant robot so invincible, you need to hack it up piece by piece.

The main difference between Giant Robot vs. Mecha is that Giant Robots are unique. Giant Robots are one of a kind, they don't make copies, not mass produced, so special they are unique, even god like. Mecha are mass produced and they are common. In terms of narrative, giant robots are extremely difficult to destroy, but mecha are blow up as often as common fodder, unless its said hero mecha.

1970s was Japan's Era of Giant Robots, but the 1980s was the Era of Mecha.

Generally, by the time you are in the Mecha era, the reason for using swords is for the Rule of Cool and Japanese anime fixation with samurai and all that. Sword has a much deeper meaning in Japanese culture than it does with the West, a context that can also be spiritual.

In terms of genre, Gundam is Mecha. So is Macross. But Neon Genesis Evangelion and Gurren Laggan are Giant Robots.

For what you're explaining, the more common terms are..
(For mecha) "real robot" (think gundam's Universal Century universe in which their machines are ground in so many rules)
(for giant robot) "super robot" (think power ranges, Voltron)

(Sorry for the necessary edit, but I see how tired I was got the worst of me below.)
Though not every series of gundam is in the real robot genre. Many of them bridges the two and then pushes hard into super robot. Gundam 00 for example starts by introducing us to machines of the typical real robot genre. And immediately slaughters them with superb levels of ********.
Then there's Gundam G-fighter. While there's certainly some governing rules, some of the machines might as well be using magic and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

---------

Anjian, on 04 August 2019 - 12:11 AM, said:

Gladiatorial combat like on Solaris should see melee happen. Its the reason why Yen Lo Wang carried a shield.

Worth noting, the Yen Lo Wang (#1, 2 and 3) did not carry a shield. Not once in the entire span of the 31st century (3000 to 3099). The 32nd century, sure.
Yen Lo Wang #4 did sometime after 3127 (it is worth noting this is the same exact machine as the Yen Lo Wang over a hundred years prior...), when female pilot Danai Liao-Centrella had one put on in order to better withstand heftier ranged firepower. Doing so also made the arm useless for what the two pilots before her often used the left arm for, vicious melee strikes.

Yen Lo Wang 4th retrofit.
(2 and 3 done by Kai Allard. The original from a Centurion CN9-A was done by Justin Allard.)

Justin's version had titanium "nails" added to the fingers (a Freddy Krueger claw, effectively which MWO kinda pays homage to reflects on every Centurion), which he used to great effect when his autocannon jammed while facing Billy Wolfson.
Kai's version adopted a hatchet (that could be released and picked back up or thrown) initially, dropping the nails. (YLW# 2, or simply 'YLW' for any imitations. Imitations were typically made out of Centurion AH as opposed to the Centurion A that Yen Lo Wang was made from, and feature a different brand name autocannon twenty). The primary reason was for a bit more reach to help make up for how slow the Yen Lo Wang really was. Though it could be thrown I never seen anything where he did that, but he has put the axe down a time o two. It is often expressly stated that Axes, Hatchets, etc. are "welded dead weight" permanently affixed to the machine out of fear of the weapon being used against them, so Yen Lo Wang #2's ability to ditch the hatchet was actually uncommon.

Edit: Before I move on to YLW 3, now that I'm awake I thought I'd like to point out something neat.
Yen Lo Wang is supposed to be using a Victor's lower right arm with a Pontiac 100 in it and it is modified to look like a crimson dragon's head around the barrel. When fired, the sheer volume of shells look as though the "dragon" is breathing fire. Someone quoted a novel during a debate in which Allard (can't remember if Justin or Kai) dumped his AC/20 ammo just prior to entering the arena (so as to do it in secret from his opponent) and his ammunition was described as being 3 tons, with a number over 3,000 40mm shells.
Keep in mind an AC/2's maximum shell size is 90mm, and minimum non-LBX/UAC/LightAC caliber is 30mm (where 10 shells net 2 damage). The number strikes me as odd given Pontiac 100 fires 100 shells per 'round' (reload) but I chuck that up to the author.
As it is worth noting such that the Centurion CN9-AH is equipped with the Luxor DDX5 Heavy Autocannon (AC/20). Its shells are of a considerably higher caliber at a much slower firing rate. "Heavy" ACs typically have a caliber of 100+mm. The Crusher Super Heavy Autocannon for example has 150mm shells (coincidentally specifically stated to fire a burst of 10 shells for 20 damage....The Crusher is also stated to be an artillery cannon...with an acceptable pinpoint range of 270 meters and a scattered inaccurate indirect range of "acceptable").

Later, the Wolf's Dragoons (when Kai refused a full Daishi) had modified Kai's YLW to have a pair of Spitfire MPL, a Von Ryan Gauss Rifle, Triple Strength Myomer and a Miamata Extralite Engine. Also a set of 3 switchable heatsinks... (YLW#3).

Of interesting note, during Kai's greatest battle, he borrowed a Hatchetman.

---------------

Anyway side tracks aside, I was thinking about some special tricks of melee. I wanted to even recite from the source material fo the rules, but the site with the most affordable retail price for Campaign Operations won't take my card because of the first four starting numbers despite the fact that it is a Visa.

So I'll just have to go with Megamek examples. Anyway, mechs can do more than punch, kick and swing. They can ram enemies (charge), jumping stomp them (death from above), trip, grapple, push, and many more. Here's a few of them.

For context, I'm using 4 fleas (1 on my side and 3 on the opposing side) and 1 Wolverine with a Melee Master against 1 Griffin where the pilot's programmed some two-arm attacks despite potential risks, and after the first move apparently skilled enough to be able to use trip.

For the first move, a Flea rushes the Griffin for a charging attack. (Basically pulling an Armored Titan.)
The Griffin is attempting to counter with a trip manuever. I haven't read the results yet so I'll be learning it as I convey it.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Flea FLE-15 (Koniving)
Charging Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs 4, rolls 12 :
- Direct Blow -
Attacker takes 7 damage.

Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LA.
Armor destroyed.
2 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on LA. Roll is 8; no effect.

Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 2 damage to LT.
3 Armor remaining.

So far, the Flea slams into the Griffin with its left arm. The armor is destroyed and the actual unit's structure is reduced to 2. No actuators or weapons are broken in the process, however.
But we're not done yet. The armor of the left torso is reduced to 3 points. What about the Griffin?

Spoiler

Defender takes 17 damage .
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to LL.
13 Armor remaining.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to LT.
15 Armor remaining.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to LA.
9 Armor remaining.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to LA.
7 Armor remaining.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 0908.
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) is displaced into hex 0909.

So, the Griffin takes a lot of left side damage, with the highest amount being to the left arm.

Sounds like this happened!

But.. Before all of that, it said that the Griffin...

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Tripping Flea FLE-15 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 9 : hits.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (was charged).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 2 (was charged)); needs 7, rolls 10 : succeeds.

Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) must make 2 piloting skill roll(s) (was tripped; charging).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (was tripped) + 1 (weight class modifier +1) + 2 (charging)); needs 8, rolls 4 : falls.
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) falls on its right side, suffering 2 damage.
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 2 damage to RL.
2 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) "Kasinda Aiyetoro" must roll 8 to avoid damage; rolls 10 : succeeds.

So... the Flea's charging attack was more of a fumble? Trips apparently don't do direct damage but let the fall cause the damage. And 2 damage isn't much. But this is a high speed rush above the Flea's normal 97 kph (so unable to make any shooting attacks and funneling weapon energy into the muscles for movement and additional speed [sprinting]). And then getting tripped. So basically more force than a 14 meter freefall, which in MWO can do significant amounts of damage to the legs.
Though most of the impact was slamming into the Griffin.

Both mechs have been displaced, however. The Griffin was knocked 30 meters back, and the Flea went sideways off to the right by 1 hex as well.

Now, the Griffin has tried to kick the Flea while it tries to stand. The flea, given that apparently was spun a full 180 when it was tripped is unable to counter in any way (so I guess it literaly rolled or tumbled like a ball across the 30 meters it was displaced, then. Or did a Skyrim/Fallout-esque flip.)

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Kick (Left leg) at Flea FLE-15 (Koniving); needs 2, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - Roll #121 - range: [1,6], result: 1
hits (using Left Side Kick table) LL

Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 13 damage to LL.
Armor destroyed.
SECTION DESTROYED.
5 damage transfers to LT.
Critical hit on LL. Roll is 12; 2 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Hip.
CRITICAL HIT on Heat Sink.
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LT.
Armor destroyed.
3 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is 15; 3 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Heat Sink.
CRITICAL HIT on Heat Sink.
CRITICAL HIT on Small Laser ®.

13 damage delivered, 5 crits delivered. The Flea's left leg is completely crushed.
Flea falls over.

Spoiler

Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) must make 3 piloting skill roll(s) (hip actuator hit; leg destroyed; was kicked).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (leg destroyed); automatically fails.
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) falls on its right side, suffering 2 damage.
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 2 damage to RL.
0 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) "Kasinda Aiyetoro" must roll 12 to avoid damage; rolls 6 : fails.
Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) "Kasinda Aiyetoro" takes 1 damage (1 total hits).
Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) "Kasinda Aiyetoro" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 3 : successful!

Another 2 damage from a slump (the pilot is also injured from the impact). But we learn that a kick from 55 tons to 20 tons hurts almost as much as taking the estimated power of a Gauss Rifle slug (13 compared to the GR's rated 15). Also that broken leg on the Flea went all the way up to the hip.

But I also had one of the opposing fleas to charge a Melee Master in a Wolverine. Lets see how that turned out.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude)
Charging Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 6, rolls 8 :
Attacker takes 7 damage.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RA.
5 damage transfers to RT.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RT.
5 damage transfers to CT.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to CT.
1 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is 4; no effect.

Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to LL.
2 Armor remaining.
Defender takes 9 damage .

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RL.
11 Armor remaining.

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 4 damage to LA.
12 Armor remaining.

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) is displaced into hex 0813.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 0812.

Shorthand, the Flea tries to ram the Wolverine. I didn't actually intend to just take it but I stayed still like an idiot again and he had a 71% chance (compared to the 96% chance the Flea that charged the stationary Griffin had).

Unlike before where we can assume the attack and counter attack happened at the same time, here it's more logical that one happened after the other. Or that potentially it was Wolverine, Flea, Wolverine again given the nature of the Wolverine's attack.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Kick (Left leg) at Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude); needs 0, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - Roll #144 - range: [1,6], result: 1
hits (using Kick table) RL

Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 13 damage to RL.
Armor destroyed.
SECTION DESTROYED.
5 damage transfers to RT.
Critical hit on RL. Roll is (12+3) = 15;LIMB BLOWN OFF Right Leg blown off.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RT.
0 Armor remaining.

Noa Izumi, a recurring character in my campaigns (of Patlabor fame) delivers two left-leg kicks at the Flea. The first hits the Flea's leg so hard that the right torso jettisons all of its remaining armor.
But the followup kick...

Spoiler

Kick (Left leg) at Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude); needs 0, rolls 5 : - Direct Blow - Roll #146 - range: [1,6], result: 2
hits (using Kick table) RL

Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 13 damage to RL.
13 damage transfers to RT.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 13 damage to RT.
SECTION DESTROYED.
LIMB BLOWN OFF Right Arm blown off.
8 damage transfers to CT.
Critical hit on RT. Roll is 14; 3 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Small Laser ®.
CRITICAL HIT on Heat Sink.
CRITICAL HIT on Heat Sink.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 8 damage to CT.
0 Armor remaining.

...caves the right torso into the center torso, too, causing all of its armor to jettison.
The Wolverine, despite being rammed (like the Griffin) is still standing.
The Flea..

Spoiler

Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) must make 5 piloting skill roll(s) (leg destroyed; was kicked; was kicked; charging; 20+ damage).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (leg destroyed); automatically fails.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) falls on its rear, suffering 2 damage.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to CTR.
1 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) "Ezerhan Scholl" must roll 13 to avoid damage; rolls 4 : fails.
Pilot of Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) "Ezerhan Scholl" takes 1 damage (1 total hits).
Pilot of Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) "Ezerhan Scholl" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 5 : successful!

Ouch.

Wolverine DFA's Flea.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Attempting death from above on Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude); needs -3, rolls 5 : - Direct Blow - hits.
Defender takes 18 damage (using Rear table).
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RTR.
5 damage transfers to CTR.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to CTR.
Armor destroyed.
SECTION DESTROYED.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) has taken 6 engine hits this phase.
Checking for engine explosion on 10, roll is 3.
Engine safety systems remain in place.
*** Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) DESTROYED by damage! ***
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (5+1) = 6; no effect.

Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RTR.
5 damage transfers to CTR.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to CTR.

Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RL.
5 damage transfers to RTR.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RTR.
5 damage transfers to CTR.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to CTR.

Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 3 damage to RTR.
3 damage transfers to CTR.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) takes 3 damage to CTR.
Flea FLE-15 #4 (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 0811.
Attacker takes 11 damage.

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LL.
11 Armor remaining.

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LL.
6 Armor remaining.
Roll #218 - range: [1,6], result: 3
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 1 damage to RL.
10 Armor remaining.

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) is displaced into hex 0812.


Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (executed death from above).
The base target is 3 [2 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (cramped cockpit)].
Roll #1, (2 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (cramped cockpit) + 4 (executed death from above)); needs 7, rolls 10 : succeeds.

The Flea is literally obliterated...completely, like nothing left.
Wolverine takes 11 damage to itself from the impact, but sticks the landing and remains up right.

Griffin and a second Flea go to kicking my Flea.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Kick (Left leg) at Flea FLE-15 (Koniving); needs -1, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - Roll #200 - range: [1,6], result: 5, rolls: 4, 1
hits (using Right Side table) RA
Roll #201 - range: [1,6], result: 4, rolls: 3, 1
Roll #202 - range: [1,6], result: 6, rolls: 4, 2
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 13 damage to RA.
Armor destroyed.
SECTION DESTROYED.
6 damage transfers to RT.
Critical hit on RA. Roll is (4+4) = 8; no effect.
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 6 damage to RT.
Armor destroyed.
4 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on RT. Roll is (6+4) = 10; 1 location.
CRITICAL HIT on Small Laser ®.


Physical attacks for Flea FLE-15 #3 (TheOtherDude)
Kick (Left leg) at Flea FLE-15 (Koniving); needs -1, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - Roll #206 - range: [1,6], result: 8, rolls: 3, 5
hits LT
Roll #207 - range: [1,6], result: 8, rolls: 2, 6
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 6 damage to LT.
SECTION DESTROYED.
LIMB BLOWN OFF Left Arm blown off.
3 damage transfers to CT.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is (8+3) = 11; 2 locations.
Location is empty, so criticals transfer to CT.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) takes 3 damage to CT.
5 Armor remaining.

A Flea charge and trip where the Flea misses and is hit with the attempt to trip but did not fal.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Tripping Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude); needs 2, rolls 7 : hits.


Physical attacks for Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude)
Charging Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 8, rolls 2 :
Roll #285 - range: [1,6], result: 4
misses.
Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 0806.
Roll #286 - range: [1,6], result: 9, rolls: 5, 4

Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (was tripped).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (was tripped) + 1 (weight class modifier +1)); needs 6, rolls 9 : succeeds.

Griffin attempting a charge, but Wolverine attempting to evade. Despite only 27% chance to hit, Griffin gets it.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Charging Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 9, rolls 11 :
Attacker takes 5 damage.
Roll #307 - range: [1,6], result: 3, rolls: 1, 2
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RA.
9 Armor remaining.
Defender takes 7 damage .
Roll #308 - range: [1,6], result: 6, rolls: 5, 1
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RT.
15 Armor remaining.
Roll #309 - range: [1,6], result: 5, rolls: 3, 2
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 2 damage to RL.
8 Armor remaining.

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) is displaced into hex 0804.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 0805.



Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (was charged).
The base target is 3 [2 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (cramped cockpit)].
Roll #1, (2 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (cramped cockpit) + 2 (was charged)); needs 5, rolls 12 : succeeds.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (charging).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 2 (charging)); needs 7, rolls 6 : falls.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) goes back to the hull down position instead of falling to the ground.

Wolverine firing all weapons in a turn.. and the melee master punches that follow.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Punch (Left Arm) at Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude); needs 1, rolls 4 : Roll #343 - range: [1,6], result: 3
hits (using Punch table) CT
Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude) takes 7 damage to CT.
1 Armor remaining.


Punch (Left Arm) at Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude); needs 1, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - Roll #344 - range: [1,6], result: 4
hits (using Punch table) RT

Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude) takes 8 damage to RT.
SECTION DESTROYED.
3 damage transfers to CT.
Critical hit on RT. Roll is (5+2) = 7; no effect.
Flea FLE-15 #2 (TheOtherDude) takes 3 damage to CT.
Armor destroyed.
4 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (4+2) = 6; no effect.

Griffin Initiating Grapple.
Wolverine countering with kicks.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Grappling Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 7 : hits.


Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Kick (Left leg) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - Roll #381 - range: [1,6], result: 5
hits (using Kick table) LL
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 13 damage to LL.
0 Armor remaining.

Kick (Left leg) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 5 : - Direct Blow - Roll #382 - range: [1,6], result: 3
hits (using Kick table) RL
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 13 damage to RL.
5 Armor remaining.


Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) must make 3 piloting skill roll(s) (was kicked; was kicked; 20+ damage).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (was kicked) + 0 (weight class modifier 0) + 0 (was kicked) + 1 (20+ damage)); needs 6, rolls 7 : succeeds.
Roll #2, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (was kicked) + 0 (weight class modifier 0) + 0 (was kicked) + 1 (20+ damage)); needs 6, rolls 4 : falls.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) falls on its right side, suffering 6 damage.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to LTR.
1 Armor remaining.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 1 damage to LTR.
0 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" must roll 6 to avoid damage; rolls 6 : succeeds.

Wolverine is locked in place by grapple. Griffin is in the prone position but still preventing the Wolverine from moving.
And for the last 40 seconds of in game time I've been trying to make a Flea self-destruct to no avail....
Wolverine is unable to fire arm weapons during a grapple. Fires SRM-6 and ML at point blank.
Griffin is unable to fire arm weapons during a grapple. Fires LRMs at point blank.

Flea Self Destructs (But wasn't close enough.)

Spoiler

Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) Checking for self destruct on 5, roll is 5: EXPLODES!
Start Secondary Damage Report.
>Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) suffers catastrophic damage, but the autoeject system was engaged.

Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check (landing in light woods).
Needs 13 [5 (ejecting) + 5 (Mech is prone) + 1 (automatic ejection) + 2 (landing in light woods)], rolls 6 : fails.

Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) "Kasinda Aiyetoro" takes 3 damage (4 total hits).
Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) "Kasinda Aiyetoro" needs a 5 to stay conscious. Rolls 7 : successful!
Pilot of Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) "Kasinda Aiyetoro" needs a 7 to stay conscious. Rolls 6 : blacks out.
The pilot ejects safely!
*** Flea FLE-15 (Koniving) DESTROYED by ejection! ***
Fire at 0909 was started due to an engine explosion!
Fire started in hex 0909.
Hex 1008: terrain takes 12 damage.
Hex 1009: terrain takes 12 damage.
Hex 1108: terrain takes 6 damage.
Hex 0710: terrain takes 6 damage.
Hex 1209: terrain takes 3 damage.
Hex 1210: terrain takes 3 damage.
Hex 0711: terrain takes 3 damage.
Hex 0607: terrain takes 3 damage.


End Secondary Damage Report.





Weapons fire for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
LRM 10 at Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 8, rolls 10 : 3 missile(s) hit.

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 3 damage to LA.
9 Armor remaining.


Weapons fire for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
SRM 6 at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs 0, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - 4 missile(s) hit (w/ +3 bonus).

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to RA.
7 Armor remaining.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to LA.
5 Armor remaining.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to LA.
3 Armor remaining.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to LL.
11 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on LL. Roll is (7+1) = 8; no effect.


Medium Laser at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs 0, rolls 5 : - Direct Blow - hits LT
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 7 damage to LT.
8 Armor remaining.

Breaking grapple (both sides opt to do it)

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Breaking grapple of Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving), no need to roll (original attacker).
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 1004.


Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Breaking grapple of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -8, rolls 8 : hits.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 1004.

Wolverine grappling Griffin.
Griffin tries to push out of it.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Grappling Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs 0, rolls 11 : hits.


Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Pushing Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 8 : succeeds: target is pushed into hex 1005.
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) is displaced into hex 1005.

Roll #455 - range: [1,6], result: 7, rolls: 4, 3, 1 (Keep 2 highest rolls)

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (was pushed).
The base target is 3 [2 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (cramped cockpit)].
Roll #1, (2 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (cramped cockpit) + 0 (was pushed) + 0 (weight class modifier 0)); needs 3, rolls 7 : succeeds.

Griffin attempts to break free of grapple.
Wolverine counters by pushing the Griffin.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Breaking grapple of Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 1, rolls 4 : hits.
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) is displaced into hex 1003.


Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Pushing Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -2, rolls 7 : succeeds: target is pushed into hex 1005.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 1005.

Roll #474 - range: [1,6], result: 8, rolls: 5, 3, 1 (Keep 2 highest rolls)
Roll #475 - range: [1,6], result: 4, rolls: 1, 3

Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (Base piloting skill).
The base target is 3 [2 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (cramped cockpit)].
Roll #1, (break grapple); needs Automatic Success, rolls 8 : succeeds.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (was pushed).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (was pushed) + 0 (weight class modifier 0)); needs 5, rolls 4 : falls.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) goes back to the hull down position instead of falling to the ground.

Griffin Zweihanded punches.
Wolverine pushes away for distance.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Punch (Left Arm) at Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 4, rolls 6 : Roll #495 - range: [1,6], result: 2
hits (using Punch table) LT
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 11 damage to LT.
9 Armor remaining.

Griffin GRF-1N is Zweihandering and might hurt itself.
Roll #496 - range: [1,6], result: 9, rolls: 3, 6
Critical hit on RA. Roll is 9; 1 location.
CRITICAL HIT on Upper Arm.
Roll #501 - range: [1,6], result: 9, rolls: 3, 6
Critical hit on LA. Roll is 9; 1 location.
CRITICAL HIT on Lower Arm.


Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Pushing Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs 1, rolls 8 : succeeds: target is pushed into hex 1006.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) is displaced into hex 1006.

Roll #504 - range: [1,6], result: 6, rolls: 4, 2

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (was pushed).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 0 (was pushed) + 0 (weight class modifier 0)); needs 5, rolls 6 : succeeds.

Griffin and Wolverine slug it out.
Since both didn't move or shoot, Griffin is able to throw in two punches.
The Melee Master in the Wolverine throws in four.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude)
Punch (Left Arm) at Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 5 : Roll #534 - range: [1,6], result: 3
hits (using Punch table) CT
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 3 damage to CT.
17 Armor remaining.


Punch (Right Arm) at Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 10 : - Direct Blow - Roll #535 - range: [1,6], result: 3
hits (using Punch table) CT
Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving) takes 5 damage to CT.
12 Armor remaining.



Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Punch (Left Arm) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 10 : - Direct Blow - Roll #536 - range: [1,6], result: 6
hits (using Punch table) HD
Roll #537 - range: [1,6], result: 8, rolls: 4, 4
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 9 damage to HD.
0 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" takes 1 damage (1 total hits).
Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 8 : successful!


Punch (Right Arm) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - Roll #538 - range: [1,6], result: 4
hits (using Punch table) RT
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 8 damage to RT.
12 Armor remaining.


Punch (Left Arm) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - Roll #539 - range: [1,6], result: 2
hits (using Punch table) LT
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 8 damage to LT.
0 Armor remaining.


Punch (Right Arm) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -1, rolls 5 : - Direct Blow - Roll #540 - range: [1,6], result: 3
hits (using Punch table) CT
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 8 damage to CT.
12 Armor remaining.


Roll #541 - range: [1,6], result: 5, rolls: 1, 4
Roll #542 - range: [1,6], result: 3
Roll #543 - range: [1,6], result: 8, rolls: 3, 5
Roll #544 - range: [1,6], result: 7, rolls: 4, 3
Roll #545 - range: [1,6], result: 10, rolls: 4, 6

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (20+ damage).
The base target is 6 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (fatigue)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (fatigue) + 1 (20+ damage) + 0 (weight class modifier)); needs 7, rolls 5 : falls.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) falls on its right side, suffering 6 damage.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to CTR.
2 Armor remaining.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 1 damage to RT.
11 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" must roll 7 to avoid damage; rolls 10 : succeeds.

While the Griffin is pointing and clicking those melee strikes, Izumi inside her Wolverine has the gloves on.
Wolverine allows the Griffin to throw the first move; a left jab to the CT. 3 damage dealt with the ever impressive battlefist, but something went wrong.
That's right when the Griffin threw that jab the Wolverine countered with a left hook straight to that round-face cockpit!!! The strike obliterates the protection for 9 damage! Transparent armor crinkles and shreds away and what was left is rendered useless! Only the frame of around the Griffin's pilot is keeping Alessia alive!
Griffin pilot manages to stay conscious by some miracle but the Griffin is staggering.
Wolverine dives in with a right upper cut into the the staggering opponent's right torso. Another 8 damage.
Griffin is now rotating to its right as the right leg plants to keep it from falling over exposing the left side.
Izumi in the follows up by throwing a left hook in her cockpit. The Wolverine in turn executes the left hook, crippling the armor of the Griffin's left torso. Whoa, 8 more damage!
Alessia's fight-or-flight manages to get the Griffin's right punch in on the Wolverine, but only she would know if that's what she was realy going for or if she was really trying to stop the Wolverine's next attack. Alessia's lucky that the primary monitor still works or else she'd realy be fighting blind.
And the Wolverine goes in for a right-handed final strike to the center torso for 8 damage like Akira from Virtua Fighter, "Whachaaa!!"

Griffin is knocked over.
In total it takes 9+8+8+8+(fall 5+1) = 39 damage from that melee combo attack from the Wolverine.
Griffin dealt 3+5 = 8 damage.
The superiority in the 'gloves'...
This movie is from the early 90s.
The glove concept was in Battletech in the late 80s as part of the fluff and used in one or more novels.
Although to be fair, the original early 80s show and late 80s early 90s US release certainly could have predated BT's use of the gloves.

BT's rules never expressly demonstrated a difference, though if there were one, the pilot skills Melee Specialist and Melee Master may make sense as using the gloves for melee combat.

Sadly I wasn't able to demonstrate any throws, or picking up and throwing things.

Wolverine, kick to the Griffin's torso followed by stomping on its hand.

Spoiler

Physical attacks for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
Kick (Left leg) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -5, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - Roll #562 - range: [1,6], result: 8, rolls: 2, 6
hits (using Left Side table) CTR
Roll #563 - range: [1,6], result: 6, rolls: 2, 4
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 14 damage to CTR.
Armor destroyed.
6 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (6+4) = 10; 1 location.
CRITICAL HIT on Standard Gyro.

Kick (Left leg) at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs -5, rolls 4 : Roll #565 - range: [1,6], result: 5, rolls: 3, 2
hits (using Left Side table) LA
Roll #566 - range: [1,6], result: 9, rolls: 6, 3
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 12 damage to LA.
Armor destroyed.
SECTION DESTROYED.
Critical hit on LA. Roll is (9+2) = 11; 2 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Hand.
CRITICAL HIT on Shoulder.

Griffin can't get up.

Spoiler

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) must make a piloting skill check (Left Arm destroyed).
Roll #590 - range: [1,6], result: 9, rolls: 4, 5
Needs 12 [5 (Base piloting skill) + 3 (Gyro damaged) + 1 (fatigue) + 0 (getting up) + 1 (Right Arm upper ctuator missing/destroyed) + 2 (Left Arm destroyed)], rolls 9 : falls.
Roll #591 - range: [1,6], result: 2
Roll #592 - range: [1,6], result: 7, rolls: 1, 6
Roll #593 - range: [1,6], result: 7, rolls: 6, 1
Roll #594 - range: [1,6], result: 4, rolls: 3, 1
Roll #595 - range: [1,6], result: 10, rolls: 4, 6
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) falls on its right side, suffering 6 damage.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 5 damage to RT.
6 Armor remaining.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 1 damage to RT.
5 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" must roll 12 to avoid damage; rolls 4 : fails.
Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" takes 1 damage (2 total hits).
Pilot of Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) "Alessia Pirandello" needs a 5 to stay conscious. Rolls 10 : successful!

Summary Execution.

Spoiler

Weapons fire for Wolverine WVR-6R (Koniving)
SRM 6 at Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude); needs 5, rolls 9 : - Direct Blow - 3 missile(s) hit (using Rear table) (w/ +3 bonus).

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to CTR.
4 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (3+1) = 4; no effect.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to CTR (critical).
2 Internal Structure remaining.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (11+1) = 12; 2 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (12+1) = 13; 3 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Jump Jet.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
*** Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) DESTROYED by engine destruction! ***
*** MechWarrior Kasinda Aiyetoro (Koniving) was trapped in the wreckage. ***
CRITICAL HIT on Standard Gyro.

Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) takes 2 damage to CTR.
SECTION DESTROYED.
Griffin GRF-1N (TheOtherDude) has taken 6 engine hits this phase.
Checking for engine explosion on 10, roll is 2.
Engine safety systems remain in place.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (6+1) = 7; no effect.

After a certain point I stopped cleaning out the rolls. Between writing this and playing it out, it was about 7 hours (playing both sides can do that. Could have been a lot less, but wouldn't get the controlled strikes as I did if I let the AI play one or both sides.)

Wonder if this helps you at all.

(Can try having Noa Izumi in a Loader King [Roughneck civilian model] against a Hatchetman or Axman if anyone wants. Or perhaps put her in a version of Yen Lo Wang? Keep in mind Noa's piloting skills are exceptional, but her gunnery skills are lackluster at best.)
(While trying to find how terrible she is with a gun in a fight that also shows her melee skills, I found this from the patlabor movie I didn't see.)

Sorry Titanfall, apparently... it was done long before. Also; awkward grapple, cool one-armed break from it.

Megamek really needs critters... I want to fight a Megasaur.

Edited by Koniving, 09 August 2019 - 11:07 AM.

[Koniving]

I've forgotten to mention that both of those mechs jettisoned their arm weapons to pull off the flurry of punches. (Hand-held guns would make it rather difficult to jab, hook and uppercut).
It's also why the Wolverine's execution didn't involve the GM Whirlwind AC/5.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Problems by Melee

Each Mech must have a lot of animations

IK make great problems in MWO
Each mech has 11 hitzones ...problems with Collisionsmodels and Glitches ...the arm now hit the left Arm? left torso ? Back or Front ? and thats with 24 Mechs !!!! 24 mechs in Melee combar for extreme is a Lot of problems .

Controlling of Arms by real melee (cyberglove?) or by only 1 Animation and Meleebutton ...seeing further problems above
and really melee in robotfight is a stupid idea , each opponent take damage , only the pure kinetic Power destroy by both Mechs the structure... a modelling Hand with many little Parts and Joints and small Hitzone punching against a massive Plate of Ammor ! what is with the Hand ?let fall a 55 t Tank from 10 m against a other tank and you have a Mind from the Energy of Power

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 12 October 2019 - 09:00 PM.