448 replies to this topic

[Kubernetes]

Tiantara, on 17 August 2019 - 11:12 PM, said:

- Hm, why? I'm comfortable in my tier2, I love play with mech with non-meta builds mostly for fun not for hardcore. When need - I choose my powered mech and grind my damage score (damage score, not match score). My prefers - heavy and assault. Why push to way where game become work and give no happiness?
Not to mentioned that most of tips based on group play, not random team where half of the tips won't work.

Good grief. You are a bad player. You are below average in every possible metric. If PSR weren't so borked you should be Tier 4 at best.

I get it, you have fun in your own way. That's fine. But don't give advice when you have no basis for doing so. You play badly for a reason; don't spread your badness to hapless noobs who might come in here and get the notion that you know what you're talking about.

[Tiantara]

Kubernetes, on 17 August 2019 - 11:27 PM, said:

Good grief. You are a bad player. You are below average in every possible metric. If PSR weren't so borked you should be Tier 4 at best.

I get it, you have fun in your own way. That's fine. But don't give advice when you have no basis for doing so. You play badly for a reason; don't spread your badness to hapless noobs who might come in here and get the notion that you know what you're talking about.

- Wow, why so? Because I don't use everytime high skilled mech with meta-builds or prefer use my own skill independent of random team skills? I'm below because I use any mech, not only I good at. But yes, I got tier2 not for nothing. Maybe I should get tier4, why not.

- I give advices which work not only in your meta-rule-world when all your teammate have voice and play as solid group. I give advices for players who play in random team and really "share armor and get killed by covering useless low damage mech". I give advices for players who play also solo to not make mistakes and play better in solo games. Like - cover your teammate, focus longrange fire to one most dangerous target, lock targets to show where enemy moves on maps, use same speed as slowest mech in march, take cover and sheild yourself by arms, use advantage of assault mech and do massive damage when it go through enemy. All that advices bad? Really? And I don't count such thing as using tag, killing UAV, cover by ecm near standing mech and put some useful modules in light-medium mech instead of enormous weapon (like whole 13 damage in spider). So I know about what I talking.

- And yes, I always ready for duel if you want so

Edited by Tiantara, 17 August 2019 - 11:47 PM.

[TheArisen]

For fun I've compiled the W/L of players on each side of this debate which imo does provide a statistical trend highlighting which train of thought is correct.

The "Armor sharing does not drive wins" crowd
- 1.08%
- 0.95%
- 1.03%
- 0.83%
TBH these are the only ones here I could 100% define as being in agreement with the OP more or less.

"Armor sharing does help"
- 1.47%
- 1.52%
- 1.33%
- 1.17%
- 1.30%
- 1.32%
- 1.22%
- 1.23%
- 1.83%

These are all individual W/L and as you can see the numbers favor the armor sharing crowd quite decisively. /thread

Edited by TheArisen, 17 August 2019 - 11:52 PM.

[Tiantara]

- Yeap. You share armor and die without weapon, or you deliver damage. One thing, not both. So if team share your mech with damage power = 78, team lost same amount of damage for nothing. Most power have assault and heavy. If they share armor and die for nothing, team god defeat, users of that mech got lower score and get worse statistic. So If assault go in attack and have no cover - useless sacrifice. If longrange have no cover and die from light mech (skilled pilot can kill light anyway) - team got defeat. Something wrong with it?

[Kubernetes]

Tiantara, on 17 August 2019 - 11:44 PM, said:

- Wow, why so? Because I don't use everytime high skilled mech with meta-builds or prefer use my own skill independent of random team skills? I'm below because I use any mech, not only I good at. But yes, I got tier2 not for nothing. Maybe I should get tier4, why not.

- I give advices which work not only in your meta-rule-world when all your teammate have voice and play as solid group. I give advices for players who play in random team and really "share armor and get killed by covering useless low damage mech". I give advices for players who play also solo to not make mistakes and play better in solo games. Like - cover your teammate, focus longrange fire to one most dangerous target, lock targets to show where enemy moves on maps, use same speed as slowest mech in march, take cover and sheild yourself by arms, use advantage of assault mech and do massive damage when it go through enemy. All that advices bad? Really? And I don't count such thing as using tag, killing UAV, cover by ecm near standing mech and put some useful modules in light-medium mech instead of enormous weapon (like whole 13 damage in spider). So I know about what I talking.

- And yes, I always ready for duel if you want so

You can look me up. All I've done is Solo Queue the past year. In the past five months I've done 90% of my games in a 40 ton Vulcan. 30pt alpha, 280m optimal. Look at my stats vs you in heavies and assaults. My heavy and assault stats are also worlds better than yours. The fact is, you're not a good player. You're significantly worse than pretty much everyone you're purporting to lecture.

If the numbers tell you that your way of playing leads to more losses than wins, more deaths than kills, and more dying than surviving, what on earth has convinced you that you know what you're talking about? Feelings? Good grief, look at the facts.

Why is MWO so full of walking, talking Dunning - Kruger cases? Why do so many objectively bad players persist in the delusion that they're secretly good? It's looney tunes out here.

[Y E O N N E]

What if I told you you need armor to fire, and that it's more effective to fire your weapons when you have friends exposing with you to dilute incoming damage instead of trying to 1v12?

What a concept!

[Tiantara]

Kubernetes, on 18 August 2019 - 12:04 AM, said:

You can look me up. All I've done is Solo Queue the past year. In the past five months I've done 90% of my games in a 40 ton Vulcan. 30pt alpha, 280m optimal. Look at my stats vs you in heavies and assaults. My heavy and assault stats are also worlds better than yours. The fact is, you're not a good player. You're significantly worse than pretty much everyone you're purporting to lecture.

If the numbers tell you that your way of playing leads to more losses than wins, more deaths than kills, and more dying than surviving, what on earth has convinced you that you know what you're talking about? Feelings? Good grief, look at the facts.

Why is MWO so full of walking, talking Dunning - Kruger cases? Why do so many objectively bad players persist in the delusion that they're secretly good? It's looney tunes out here.

- And let me ask you, on how many different mech you play in whole? Only on two mastered? You are not good player only because you choose some mech you play with good and use them everytime. Numbers can be better If you play more often too, so that also play role. But okay - if team got defeat, how can I stay alive? Run away and shoot-down mech in the border of map? Like most light-medium do? I go to battle to provide team all possible firepower, not sheild for their guns.
And ok - you think you so good? Lets duel! We have plenty empty rooms in Solaris now - you can call me anytime when I in game.

[Y E O N N E]

Kubernetes plays, like, everything. You play less variety than he does.

[Tiantara]

Y E O N N E, on 18 August 2019 - 12:21 AM, said:

Kubernetes plays, like, everything. You play less variety than he does.

- Besides that, really all that advices so bad?

Quote

Like - cover your teammate, focus longrange fire to one most dangerous target, lock targets to show where enemy moves on maps, use same speed as slowest mech in march, take cover and sheild yourself by arms, use advantage of assault mech and do massive damage when it go through enemy. All that advices bad?

[Y E O N N E]

So, let's go over what just happened in that Frozen City match we were just in:

Your team had one, sometimes two 'Mechs engaging our group of 7 or so at any given time. You tried to sit at the front by yourself and got demolished.

This is not armor sharing, that's you being stupid and taking damage unnecessarily.

Armor sharing is what my team was doing. We had several 'Mechs at once, creating a massive armor pool to have to chew through at once. When some of us got hurt, we dropped back and let somebody else take point. Guess what? We won 12-4.

[Tiantara]

Y E O N N E, on 18 August 2019 - 12:38 AM, said:

So, let's go over what just happened in that Frozen City match we were just in:

Your team had one, sometimes two 'Mechs engaging our group of 7 or so at any given time. You tried to sit at the front by yourself and got demolished.

This is not armor sharing, that's you being stupid and taking damage unnecessarily.

Armor sharing is what my team was doing. We had several 'Mechs at once, creating a massive armor pool to have to chew through at once. When some of us got hurt, we dropped back and let somebody else take point. Guess what? We won 12-4.

So, what happens in Frozen City. I go first to flank with rapid fire on new mech with not well done collision models. When I see many enemy mech and try to take cover, I stuck in building (which many times was mentioned on that map as problematic spot). When I unstuck from it - I got focused fire and died. I call that unluck and usually quit game to take part in another or sit and watch how others play. Yeap, that not armor sharing, that simply unlucky consequences.
Yeap you won. Not to mention that our team have less assaults and less firepower.

Edited by Tiantara, 18 August 2019 - 12:46 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Your team had the same number of assaults. Match-maker always balances the 'Mech classes in solo queue.

Bottom line, though, is that nobody on your team presented as a group. They all tried to engage one at a time and died for it.

[Tiantara]

Y E O N N E, on 18 August 2019 - 12:48 AM, said:

Your team had the same number of assaults. Match-maker always balances the 'Mech classes in solo queue.

Bottom line, though, is that nobody on your team presented as a group. They all tried to engage one at a time and died for it.

- And that happens often. So, nothing depends on me in that case. If I don't stuck, maybe I kill 1-2 most dangerous mech before get killed. But that not happens. Match-maker sometimes put heavy in charlie lance, so enemy can have 4 assaults, and we - 3 assaults and close to assault heavy with high power. Check that strange thing next time.

[Alienized]

Y E O N N E, on 18 August 2019 - 12:48 AM, said:

Your team had the same number of assaults. Match-maker always balances the 'Mech classes in solo queue.

Bottom line, though, is that nobody on your team presented as a group. They all tried to engage one at a time and died for it.

well i have that alot too, it likely is a matter of mech/team conflict....
(and some personal in addition)
some just play very agressive and their loadouts/mechs show this (looking at myself here, i just love to brawl/flank :>)
but you also have to get an idea how to retreat out of it if necessary, complicated thing if you dont get support of the team.

we know that usually isnt much of the case at all ^.-

in this case it isnt fair at all for newer players to learn the nuances against players like you or HATCHET for example.
i could learn when the playerbase was much bigger so i didnt meet you top guys all damn time

about giving advice you are totally right tho.

Tia, it would be better for you to go out and seek for help on how to play different than tell others what to do.
its nothing to be ashamed of, i had the luck to A be always questioning myself on why things went wrong and how i can play better without relying on firepower (i love mobility :| ) and B been lucky to be in -42- getting to know alot of good players to seek advice about loadouts and stuff.

also, we used to run a wild mix of trashmechs in group hyper agressive just running over organized units in a tactic that was pretty much nothing else but a huge mess of chaos.

[Tiantara]

Quote

Alienized

- You also think that all my advices are bad, right?
- I have no use of pro-players tips or builds because:
1. I play solo, my unit empty right now, I have no premade team and never have last 2 years. So advices based on premade team - useless in my case.
2. I prefer longrange mech mostly or brawl if have some mood to rush into battle and do some great damage.
3. I don't like any hot builds where alpha kill you if you lost 1-2 heatsinks. So advices with hot builds I don't use at all.
4. I prefer as much armor as I can get, because noone cover me 90% of time, and I need all my weapon as long as possible.
5. I fairly often play on unpopular mech because I have them, I like them and I try do maximum of them by making own build based on playstyle good for that specific mech (like brawle on Atlas and Longrange on Dire).

So, if advices looks like "you must play as we play because that proper play and we sneeze on your problem with that and whatever your game become work and not fun" - I rather not use it. Sorry, but I want get fun from game and if something go wrong - use different mech based on current mood, not come to game like on job and be nervous about every number which go down.
- Anyway - every pilot who think he better - can freely take duel with me. That give more experience than listening about tactic in random play with pilots which damage not higher than 60.

Edited by Tiantara, 18 August 2019 - 01:29 AM.

[Feral Clown]

Tiantara, on 17 August 2019 - 11:23 PM, said:

- It means - usually when you get normal game and was not killed in head from the start, or get alpha in you back from team, or not getting blocked by teammate under fire, and not walk unde LRM shower, and take your part of action in right place in right time... right? In all that condition - its average. In all other - I got what I got.

That's not what it means sir.

Look yourself up on Jarl's and you will see what your actual average is and it is no where near a consistent 600 damage or your average match score would be roughly around 350 or so maybe even a tad higher.

You can't just throw out those games you double d as though they do not count.

[Tiantara]

Feral Clown, on 18 August 2019 - 01:58 AM, said:

That's not what it means sir.

Look yourself up on Jarl's and you will see what your actual average is and it is no where near a consistent 600 damage or your average match score would be roughly around 350 or so maybe even a tad higher.

You can't just throw out those games you double d as though they do not count.

- I said about damage only. If I get defeat as whole team, match score go down, but not damage. And I don't see damage score in that table at all.

[Horseman]

Tiantara, on 17 August 2019 - 11:00 PM, said:

- It's count all gamemodes?

It counts Quick Play, both solo and group.
If you need 600+ damage to kill anything in Solaris, you've already lost.
If you do 600-800 damage in Faction Play then you're doing 150-200 per mech and dragging down your team.

Quote

And where earlier years?

The leaderboards track since PGI instituted the monthly leaderboards, ie the last three years. Given that the meta has been changing over the time, older records would hardly be relevant anyway.

Quote

And yes, when all depends on me - it's average.

An "average" that depends entirely on special circumstances (such as using the rest of your team as ablative armor) is not a genuine average.

Quote

When nothing depends on me - not.

Something always depends on you: your contribution to your team. And your stats say conclusively that on average your presence on a team is detrimental.

Tiantara, on 17 August 2019 - 11:23 PM, said:

- It means - usually when you get normal game and was not killed in head from the start, or get alpha in you back from team, or not getting blocked by teammate under fire, and not walk unde LRM shower, and take your part of action in right place in right time... right? In all that condition - its average. In all other - I got what I got.

Patently wrong. When you make a claim to an average, you include these scenarios as well.

Quote

Like using mech on map which not good for that mech or playing with builds or weak mech just for fun. Public stats don't count many things. If I play only on mech which best for me - average damage will go up to 600+ (like when event come and I need high score and high damage) If I play for fun on mech on which I not good - score go down. Or on new bought mech which I don't know.

We all do, and those scenarios count towards the average as well. They count towards mine. And YEONNE's. And Kubernetes' . And Alienized's. Just because with the right mech we can pull above 1K damage in QP doesn't mean jack if we don't do that often enough to matter.

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 12:14 AM, said:

- And let me ask you, on how many different mech you play in whole? Only on two mastered? You are not good player only because you choose some mech you play with good and use them everytime.

While I can't answer for Kubernetes, my stable consists of 271 mechs, 138 of which I've mastered, and about 80 of which I play as and when the mood takes me.

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

- Yeap. You share armor and die without weapon, or you deliver damage. One thing, not both.

Armor sharing is not about sacrificing mechs - in fact, it's the polar opposite: the point is to make sure damaged mechs that still have their weapons remain on the field and kill the enemy for as long as possible.

Let's say there are three mechs on each side, each providing 80 damage.
If one of your mechs dies first, your team is doing 160 damage against 240 damage. That's how matches start snowballing into losses.
The basic goal of sharing armor is that you switch up with your more damaged teammates so that your team ends up with three mechs all of which sustained roughly the same amount of armor damage - and which keep killing the enemy at their full firepower - rather than two fresh and one dead (and therefore down a third of your firepower because the other two players on your team were cowards).

And yes, it works for you as well as your team - when you take damage but still have working weapons, rotating with a more intact teammate keeps you and your guns on the field longer.

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 02:03 AM, said:

- I said about damage only. If I get defeat as whole team, match score go down, but not damage. And I don't see damage score in that table at all.

Score is mostly a function of damage. Double the score and you have your approximate damage.

Edited by Horseman, 18 August 2019 - 02:18 AM.

[Tiantara]

- Well ok... ~_~

[Alienized]

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 01:27 AM, said:

- You also think that all my advices are bad, right?
- I have no use of pro-players tips or builds because:
1. I play solo, my unit empty right now, I have no premade team and never have last 2 years. So advices based on premade team - useless in my case.
2. I prefer longrange mech mostly or brawl if have some mood to rush into battle and do some great damage.
3. I don't like any hot builds where alpha kill you if you lost 1-2 heatsinks. So advices with hot builds I don't use at all.
4. I prefer as much armor as I can get, because noone cover me 90% of time, and I need all my weapon as long as possible.
5. I fairly often play on unpopular mech because I have them, I like them and I try do maximum of them by making own build based on playstyle good for that specific mech (like brawle on Atlas and Longrange on Dire).

So, if advices looks like "you must play as we play because that proper play and we sneeze on your problem with that and whatever your game become work and not fun" - I rather not use it. Sorry, but I want get fun from game and if something go wrong - use different mech based on current mood, not come to game like on job and be nervous about every number which go down.
- Anyway - every pilot who think he better - can freely take duel with me. That give more experience than listening about tactic in random play with pilots which damage not higher than 60.

no i don't
look, my most played mech right now is a brawl XL victor. (ac 20, 3 srm6 + artemis)
(actually its a quickdraw-5k with more than a thousand battles but i barely play that one atm)
if you make one mistake it can be over. my aim is quite bad and and so are my reflexes.
i frequently die in seconds against the top players as their aim with dual HGausses is so superior to what i ever could do with such mechs.

so where does my matchscore etc come from?
taking chances, play agressively away from my own team or pushing into flanks rather recklessly or even run back to chase off meds that are unaware of a rather quick (71kph) high mobility (4 jj's) mech that they wont stand much of a chance against. i pick my fights and if i see its a battle i cant do much at all i charge into somewhere hope to distract.
that hurts my stats more than anything but might give the rest of the team a chance to win.

so you read some people saying i rant and rage alot (it's true after all) yet having low stats.
the thing alot of people dont understand is that i play under a tactical sight, not a pure shooter sight.

if your team lemmings after some lights i pretty much know they run into a massive firing line at some point or the enemy will be in their back already. so i turn around, try to get a few mechs with me as cover and either run into them or end up behind their firing line. both is pretty damn deadly for yourself but if you are lucky you are in the perfect spot to get a good load of shots into enemy backs.
if not, half the enemy firing line your actual team would have a fast death against turns around to kill you (which will dump your own stats pretty much), giving your chicken chasers a chance to perform better than they would against a fully settled firing line.

thats why i personally dont read too much into stats of some (they do come from somewhere) but wont ever neglect the meaning of them fully. always 2 sides to them, reading them properly needs some background information as well.


i barely play in group (its empty anyway) and play some ultra horrid loadouts everyone even of my unit laughs at
like a XL 380 hatamoto-chi with snubs and srm's.
all the highlanders.
atlai, banshee's, cataphracts, dragons, all of such mechs.
so i completely understand your point, mate and i know its rough defending that

Edited by Alienized, 18 August 2019 - 02:36 AM.