32 replies to this topic

[Colaessus]

Its called a LONG Tom.

[Black Sunder]

Just...no. Don't turn weapons into something they are not.

[Strum Wealh]

Phatt, on 27 December 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:

Just a question on your defenition of what HEAP means, do you mean High Explosive Armour Piercing or High Explosive Anti Personel?

High Explosive Armour Piercing would be completely useless as an indirect fire weapon because it requires direct contact with the armoured vehicle to work effectively.

The latest technology in projectiles is the High Explosive Incendiary/Armor Piercing Ammunition (HEIAP), but it is still useless as an indirect fire weapon.

The Longtom is some kind of HE Fragmentation round that does damage to mech armour and creates a lot of heat when one lands near you, and if your unlucky enough to take a direct hit then your going to take a lot of damage and most likely shut down due to heat.

Canonically:

• All ACs can fire high-explosive armor-piercing rounds - HEAP is the "standard" munition.
  
• Regular and light ACs (shorter barrels allow them to be lighter than the standard models, but with reduced range compared to the standard models) can also fire a number of special munitions.
  
• LB-X ACs can fire standard (HEAP) rounds and specialized cluster rounds (but not any of the specialized munitions) at slightly longer ranges.
  
• Ultra ACs can fire only standard (HEAP) rounds, but may fire at the normal ROF or double the normal ROF (usually represented in the games as a "double-tap" (firing two rounds in quick succession)) at slightly longer ranges.
  
• Rotary ACs are gatling weapons (as opposed to the other ACs, which are either single-barrel or have multiple barrels in a (presumably) non-rotating configuration) that fire only standard (HEAP) rounds, but may fire at up to six times the normal ROF at slightly longer ranges.
  
• Hypervelocity ACs have much longer ranges than the other AC classes, but may fire only standard (HEAP) munitions.

Canonically: as of the game's start point (3049), only the standard ACs, the LB-X AC-10, the Ultra AC-5, standard (HEAP) munitions, flak munitions, and tracer munitions are available to IS forces.

On the topic at hand:
I think it would be interesting to have the ballistic trajectories and ranges modeled accurately, with the listed canon ranges representing "the zero-slant range under Terran-standard gravity in Terran standard-day conditions", with local differences in planetary gravity, atmospheric density and composition, wind speed and direction, the firing angle of the attacker, the height and distance of cover for the target, and the elevation difference between the attacker and the target (and any intervening obstacles/cover) having an effect on AC performance and/or effectiveness.

Admittedly, this would give ACs (and MGs, which are basically a similar mechanism that fires bullets rather than shells) some limited indirect capability (making the weapons a bit more flexible, function-wise), while also adding some additional factors to increase the challenge to the players (so that the additional flexibility does not come without a cost, albeit one that can be partially mitigated or controlled by the players' skill and Pilot Skills - if one misses, one still does no damage to the target, but will make lots of nice holes in the ground ) and not fully replacing the "true" artillery weapons.

Your thoughts?

[Ghost73]

Strum Wealh, on 28 December 2011 - 09:53 AM, said:

On the topic at hand:
I think it would be interesting to have the ballistic trajectories and ranges modeled accurately, with the listed canon ranges representing "the zero-slant range under Terran-standard gravity in Terran standard-day conditions", with local differences in planetary gravity, atmospheric density and composition, wind speed and direction, the firing angle of the attacker, the height and distance of cover for the target, and the elevation difference between the attacker and the target (and any intervening obstacles/cover) having an effect on AC performance and/or effectiveness.

Admittedly, this would give ACs (and MGs, which are basically a similar mechanism that fires bullets rather than shells) some limited indirect capability (making the weapons a bit more flexible, function-wise), while also adding some additional factors to increase the challenge to the players (so that the additional flexibility does not come without a cost, albeit one that can be partially mitigated or controlled by the players' skill and Pilot Skills - if one misses, one still does no damage to the target, but will make lots of nice holes in the ground ) and not fully replacing the "true" artillery weapons.

Your thoughts?

I want my ballistic weapons to work like ballistic weapons. I don't think it has to be overly complicated, but ballistic trajectory first and foremost, followed by reduced damage at extreme ranges (due to slowing down).

As for range-limiting weapons, I would rather have less than perfect accuracy than my bullets magically disappearing.

[Rhinehart]

I thnik if your AC misses a target and something in the line of fire is in range it will probably hit it. Mechwarrior titles have never shied away from friendly fire.

ACs have always been a heavy but mostly dependable direct fire weapon that has that advantage of generating very low heat compared to comparable energy weaponry. I always thought that two words in that description are often overlooked. LOW HEAT.

In Mechwarrior heat is a huge factor in operating these machines. I never felt MW4 did actual justice to the heat costs involved, especially as all mechs had double heat sinks by default, which I suppose fits the canon of the time. But in Other MW titles you still had chassis equipped with only single heat sinks and that is where the autocannon becomes a valuable weapon. In this time frame double heat sink technology has been rediscovered but the vast majority of Inner Sphere Mechs in the field have yet to be refitted with this technology. The Clans have even more efficient double heat sinks than the rare Inner Sphere version and I always thought that this, rather than the edge in range and damage of the weapons was the decisive advantage they held during the invasion. Tactics and use of terrain can mitigate a range advantage. The only way to mitigate the heat cost is a body of water to stand the Mech in to aid cooling, but if the Clanner pilot gets there first he will be even more effectively disipating his heat.

This heat cost is what makes the AC a valuable weapon. Otherwise you'd just load up on lasers so you wouldn't have to worry about ammo cost or explosions.

Edited by Rhinehart, 28 December 2011 - 04:06 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I also hope they use real ballistic modelling instead of hitscan for all the ballistic weapons..except the gauss..the ranges we're using those at are far too short for ballistics to actually matter due to the projectile speed. That would include the fact that extreme range is just the point where that projectiles damage STARTS to drop, not the point where it turns into a marshmellow or just totally vanishes. Target Mech is 300m out(extreme range), there's another Mech 450m beyond it, I fire my AC20 and miss the target, but the LoF intersects with that 2nd Mech at 450m, it should get hit AND take damage..not the full 20, but at least 10 damage, as it IS half again the extreme range but the KE should still be high enough to do half damage. IS Tech ranges folks..lets keep that in mind, that's what we're getting to play with at launch

But..with ballistics, you aren't going to indirect fire your ACs, because the angle required to make them come DOWN behind a hill will mean they have so little kinetic energy left that they'll be totally useless against a Mech. Sure, that 200mm slug would kill any human it hits..but a Mech, with armor designed to take that 200mm slug's KE at full velocity? It'll go THUD and fall to the ground, might scare a pilot to death, but it won't do more then scratch the paint job on that Mech.

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 28 December 2011 - 04:34 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

At least it'll cost him C-Bills for a respray.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bah..pay for a quick scratch fix? What, you don't carry some cans of spray paint with you? I do..quick touch ups in the field..putting my personal tag on salvage...graffiti here and there for grins and giggles..

[Nik Van Rhijn]

How else are PGI going to make their money?

[Kristov Kerensky]

By selling me cans of spray paint..and hula girls.

[Phatt]

I would love to see realistic ballistic trajectories and projectile physics, as well as interchangeable ammunition types. However I'll be happy if the game works and I can blow lots of stuph up.

Just for those who are interested I found a definition of HEAP ammunition that explains how it works.
'High Explosive Armour-Piercing'projectiles consist of a thick-walled hardened steel case with a fuse on the base operating on a time delay. They are fired at high velocity and are designed to smash a hole through armour and detonate on the other side. They are vulnerable to shattering against face hardened armour plate, and are much less effective against highly sloped armour, but are relatively unaffected by spaced plates and composite armour.

I think that Incorporating all the extra data and calculations required to realisticly simulate HEAP being fired from AC's etc, would add a lot of extra work for the game devs, but it's not that difficult to do because it's just physics after all and these new fangled computers are realy good at dealing with ingame physics.

However none of all this flash physics stuph will mean that you can use AC's as indirect fire weapons in MWO, it just wouldn't work.

[BduSlammer]

boy did i open a can of worms with this tread , my basic thing was more or less did not want to shot say the ac-20 it misses the mech at 300m and disapears. think of if on a hill top and the mech below was 500m down the hill does that mean the gun firing down hill when the shell goes 300 it stops

[Kristov Kerensky]

Huh..Bdu..no offense, but your OP doesn't read that way so..yeah.

Damage dropping off after round hits extreme range instead of them just vanishing..yeah, we're for that, it's easy to do and should be done, same with ballistic properties instead of hitscan.

Firing over a hill and having the drop down like arty..no, not how the weapon works, there's actual arty weapons already IN the BTech universe.