32 replies to this topic

[Livaria]

Even though I disagree with the jam mechanic altogether, It doesn't look like it's going away any time soon.

(Clan or IS) UAC/2 Jams very frequently to the point where I barely get any benefit from it's rapid fire function. It almost feels like an ordinary AC/2 with how often it jams. There's plenty of ways to fix this, or balance it properly.

Here's some solutions:

- Reduce jam chance
- Minimum of 3 shots before risk of jamming occours
- Replace jam function with a clip size, removing the luck factor
(Fire rate is normal after clip is expended, the clip is replenished by not firing.)

Take your pick.

Edited by Livaria, 24 August 2019 - 11:32 AM.

[Foxwalker]

Livaria, on 20 August 2019 - 04:36 AM, said:

Even though I disagree with the jam mechanic altogether, It doesn't look like it's going away any time soon.

(Clan or IS) UAC/2 Jams very frequently to the point where I barely get any benefit from it's rapid fire function. It almost feels like an ordinary AC/2 with how often it jams. There's plenty of ways to fix this, or balance it properly.

Here's some solutions:

- Reduce jam chance
- Minimum of 3 shots before risk of jamming occours
- Replace jam function with a clip size, removing the luck factor

Take your pick.

I really like the 3 shots before risk of jamming kicks in. All UACs jam too often. The worst thing is that even on a single first click it can jam. I have the Loyalty Wolverine that has a 40% Jam chance reduction and luck of the draw, still often jams on a first single click.

Very frustrating.

[Funky Bacon]

I think some people have even said the UAC/2 have less DPS than the regular AC/2 because of the jams and jam duration.

[Shanrak]

Don't use clan UAC2s, its in a really bad place. The jam penalty is too high for too small of a gain.

Simple math, 15% jam chance, but you lose 8 cycles of shots when it does jam. So the overall net dps rate is lower than the regular AC2.

The only use for ultras is for peeking and double tapping, not for sustained fire that ac2s are good for.

Edited by Shanrak, 20 August 2019 - 08:07 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Well, the point of ultras is to have higher burst but lower sustained DPS. They have to jam enough that the regular ACs win for long term sustain, otherwise they are just strictly better than normal ACs which wouldn't be a good idea. There are som other factors too of course but generally that tradeoff has to remain. It's natural that UACs make more sense for big guns that are more burst oriented, so it's possible UAC2s need a buff idk, just be very carewful so they don't obselete regular ACs.

[Kubernetes]

They're fine, you just need to bring a bunch of them.

Every time I have tested UACs vs ACs, the ultras always put out more dps, even with jams. Obviously jams suck when you're in the middle of a fight, so you need to bring multiple guns.

(notice that no one complains when RNGeezus gives them 30 seconds of non-jamming UAC action)

Edited by Kubernetes, 20 August 2019 - 11:49 AM.

[FupDup]

RAC/2 master race.

[PhoenixFire55]

Please don't mislead people ... UACs have higher sustained DPS (yes, with consideration of jam chance and jam duration) compared to their regular counterparts.

[LordNothing]

Sjorpha, on 20 August 2019 - 08:32 AM, said:

Well, the point of ultras is to have higher burst but lower sustained DPS. They have to jam enough that the regular ACs win for long term sustain, otherwise they are just strictly better than normal ACs which wouldn't be a good idea. There are som other factors too of course but generally that tradeoff has to remain. It's natural that UACs make more sense for big guns that are more burst oriented, so it's possible UAC2s need a buff idk, just be very carewful so they don't obselete regular ACs.

if thats the design its certainly not how it works in practice, especially on the 2 and 5. one tends to boat 2s and 5s so that any jam time averages out and inevitably gives you higher sustained dps, and rarely stalling out completely (the heat usually gets you first). if you look at the amount of time you can fire sure the ac wins out, but when you look at the damage output of a burst sustained as far as it will go (due to either heat or jam) the uacs still put more damage down range and in less time.

you get up to the 10 and 20 then you got something you can peak'n'poke with. though the 20 suffers from the fact that you usually use them singularly and in a brawl, so a jam on that one can be fatal. i prefer the acs for brawling. and you do got the special case of the ultraviolet that cant tolerate the heat of 8 of the things for very long.

i think id have doubled the damage of the guns and also increase the base cd by about 1.5x. this would also come with an increase to burst size. each round would then do a 1/burstSize rng roll, the result of which accumulates in a value (lets call it cdMult). at the end of the burst the cd is determined by the baseCD+baseCD*cdMult. the resulting cd would be anywhere between 1x and 2x the base value. thus you get the burst damage niche filled but can no longer sustain barrage even while boating, and the equivalent acs can outsustain them.

[Shanrak]

PhoenixFire55, on 20 August 2019 - 11:56 AM, said:

Please don't mislead people ... UACs have higher sustained DPS (yes, with consideration of jam chance and jam duration) compared to their regular counterparts.

We're talking about just UAC2s here... no one's disputing other UACs have higher DPS.

[Kubernetes]

Shanrak, on 20 August 2019 - 01:52 PM, said:

We're talking about just UAC2s here... no one's disputing other UACs have higher DPS.

UAC2 also has higher DPS. Try it out in training grounds.

Edited by Kubernetes, 20 August 2019 - 02:06 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Honestly, tabletop rules kinda cover it....moreso with the Solaris rules, which really are closer to what MWO has, with rates of fire and the heat dissipation.

There actually are rules for clearing UAC and RAC jams, giving you the chance to make the appropriate dice roll every round...or, 4 times a round with Solaris rules. I don't have a problem with the jam rate....in theory, it's simply rolling snake eyes on two die six. It's gonna happen. My problem is how long it takes to make the appropriate die roll to unjam. One would think it would be just as random.

[Shanrak]

Kubernetes, on 20 August 2019 - 02:05 PM, said:

UAC2 also has higher DPS. Try it out in training grounds.

maybe this info is out of date but it shows you lose dps when double tapping with cuac2s

https://www.reddit.c...dps_statistics/

[LT. HARDCASE]

Foxwalker, on 20 August 2019 - 05:17 AM, said:

I really like the 3 shots before risk of jamming kicks in. All UACs jam too often. The worst thing is that even on a single first click it can jam. I have the Loyalty Wolverine that has a 40% Jam chance reduction and luck of the draw, still often jams on a first single click.

Very frustrating.

Has anyone ever recorded a video of a very very first click jam? I hear the legend of this mythical beast, but it's never happened to me and I've never seen it.

[A1Ste4kSauce]

I'm a light guy, not an assault guy, but my god I bought a Daishi on sale finally and threw 6 uac2s on it, its a lot of fun. Most jams I get concurrently are two. Definitely bring them in bulk.

[Bowelhacker]

LT. HARDCASE, on 20 August 2019 - 04:48 PM, said:

Has anyone ever recorded a video of a very very first click jam? I hear the legend of this mythical beast, but it's never happened to me and I've never seen it.

Not that I have video of it, but it's sure happened to me more than once.

[Y E O N N E]

Shanrak, on 20 August 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

maybe this info is out of date but it shows you lose dps when double tapping with cuac2s

https://www.reddit.c...dps_statistics/

Academic test that doesn't take into account typical engagement windows. Rarely do you get to just sit there and pound out uninterrupted fire. Once you factor ducking into cover every now and then, the UACs win hands-down.

[Shanrak]

Y E O N N E, on 20 August 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

Academic test that doesn't take into account typical engagement windows. Rarely do you get to just sit there and pound out uninterrupted fire. Once you factor ducking into cover every now and then, the UACs win hands-down.

Granted, but the break even point is only around 5 seconds of fire, which is not that long. Yes 1-2 second snapshot opportunities happen much more often but factor in the extra heat and it's s lot more break even than the other ones. But we've known for a while clan acs needs a buff when compared to uacs...

[ShiverMeRivets]

Shanrak, on 21 August 2019 - 03:15 AM, said:

Granted, but the break even point is only around 5 seconds of fire, which is not that long. Yes 1-2 second snapshot opportunities happen much more often but factor in the extra heat and it's s lot more break even than the other ones. But we've known for a while clan acs needs a buff when compared to uacs...

There is a difference between mean dps and actual effective dps in the game - when you step out of cover you start with all your guns unjammed. This creates a bias that puts you ahead of the theoretical mean dps. This bias is then watered down the longer you shoot.

What enhances the significance of this bias is the importance of front loading your damage - 5 seconds is a VERY long time for continuous fire. By the you may duck into cover, your target may duck into cover, or it may start to twist to spread the damage. Therefore it is significant that you can overload your initial dps, at the expense of later dps that may not even be relevant.

Having said that, uac2 are garbage and so are ac2. If I can’t boat at least 6 of them I am 100% better served by using fewer bigger guns. If raw annoying dps is your thing, then go for RAC2s - much more efficient and their jams are totally predictable, so you can work it into your tactics.

[Foxwalker]

Bowelhacker, on 20 August 2019 - 05:51 PM, said:

Not that I have video of it, but it's sure happened to me more than once.

Right, and it usually happens when you first step out of cover to fire and click/jam, you are an unhappy sitting duck. If you are one of those that don't do well at games of chance, stay away from the UAC, it will bite you in the butt.