32 replies to this topic

[FRAGTAST1C]

I'm constantly seeing Charlie Lance unable to break 500 damage combined regularly now.

[TheMundaneYesYes]

Wait, what? I have not been really around for the last three months so I am assuming this means tiers don`t mean anything with the match makers anymore?

Edited by Number767, 16 August 2019 - 07:49 PM.

[Feral Clown]

I think it still is needed?

There are definitely maps/modes where I personally believe drop zones could use adjustment.

They also do allow a much broader tonnage than they used to. With this event I am seeing everything from having eight assaults per side to 30% lights, 40% mediums and the rest mixed.

The state of the game is what it is though and guys who insist on bringing 48kph 100 ton mechs all the time unless very good are in general going to have a bad time at it.

[FRAGTAST1C]

What I meant by the op is that Tiers are merged 'cause the population is low. As such, there are pilots who can barely bring a proper loadout into a match let alone break 300 damage in assault mechs. I'm talking about quad AC5 and 1 LL (Yes, quad AC5, not UAC5) Fafnir 5 and things like that.

So, why bother sorting by tonnage? Just sort by player skill or something. There's no point in saddling one side with 4 100 ton assaults that have terrible loadouts and in pilots' hands who can't shoot straight only for them to further make things worse by hiding in the back.

Furthermore, if a team has a decent pilot in a Heavy Gauss Fafnir against a team whose only assault is an Executioner mixed with people who'd rather sit and hide, then it aggravates the situation even more.

I wouldn't mind if a team consisted of decent pilots all in Light and Medium mechs go up against some assaults and heavies if the skill is evenly distributed.

/rant.

[Feral Clown]

Oh then no.

PSR is broken so all the tier ones can't be separated based on skill because the gap is enormous.

Teams are better off being evenly divided tonnage wise.

[Tarl Cabot]

Number767, on 16 August 2019 - 07:49 PM, said:

Wait, what? I have not been really around for the last three months so I am assuming this means tiers don`t mean anything with the match makers anymore?

Tiers using PSR is essentially an experience bar. The Solo Queue MM only utilizes Tier level + matching weight classes to form up teams. It is sad when players moan about the MM opening up, taking anyone due to low population when the PSR itself has low thresholds for upward movement, which eventually almost everyone whether with an avg 500 MS or a 170 MS, it will simply take more games for that 170 MS player to hit Tier 2 then Tier 1.......

Or to put it another way, a player killing light blue NPCs in a game will take much more kills but will eventually level up to the highest level, while players killing dark blues/yellows will get their quicker. And/or the player wearing starter gear dies more often fighting dark blues but is not able to get a rez each time vs the player wearing top group/raid gear. The poorly geared player will eventually level out, it will simply take more kills (most rez do not give back 100% health)...

Go to Jarls lists and sort by games played. Of the top 10 with the most games, 5 are under 190 MS. Of those 5, 3 have opted in to show their Tiers on the forums with two being Tier 1 and the other Tier 2, with average MS ranging from 171 MS to 188 MS. Essentially Tier 1 and 2 is a a microcosm of the Tiers themselves.

And those players who are still here and in Tier 1 and 2, are they ecstatic they are in Tier 1, or have they come to terms that will not change but enjoy piloting a mech? Of said players, how many have left because it is BS? It would be akin to having a new expansion come out with harder hitting mobs and dying much more often while closing down previous expansions zones where the mobs were still dark blue but do not hit as hard. There are "challenges" then there are challenges.

When MW5 comes out, there will be those who will want to try out MWO because it is PVP, and imho MWO is not in a good position to retain those players.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 17 August 2019 - 04:59 AM.

[LordNothing]

this game does do a good job of avoiding the bigger is better trap of other mechwarrior games. i dont think ive ever had as much fun in lights for example. its one of mwo's few redeeming qualities.

people get the biggest mech they can find load it up with guns and think that somehow they are going to have an advantage. then you drop and die to what you think is the weakest mech in the game. its a great way to subvert expectations.

as for the sorting by tonnage i think that does something else entirely. mostly to keep lances together. you don't want locusts and annihilators in the same group because all sense of lance cohesion goes out the window. not that lances mean much in this game, you could probably get rid of it and nobody would notice. i think sorting by top speed would make more sense as there are slow lights and fast assaults. but again lances would need to serve a purpose.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 August 2019 - 06:41 AM.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

LordNothing, on 17 August 2019 - 06:32 AM, said:

this game does do a good job of avoiding the bigger is better trap of other mechwarrior games.

But in QP "bigger is better" was replaced by "faster is better".

I'd say QP teams should be balanced on mech speed, instead of mech weight.

And Livaria made an even better suggestion by saying Charlie lance should be dropped further forward in QP, so QP teams blindly chase after Charlie lance instead of blindly trying to catch up with Alpha lance

[Y E O N N E]

LordNothing, on 17 August 2019 - 06:32 AM, said:

as for the sorting by tonnage i think that does something else entirely. mostly to keep lances together. you don't want locusts and annihilators in the same group because all sense of lance cohesion goes out the window. not that lances mean much in this game, you could probably get rid of it and nobody would notice. i think sorting by top speed would make more sense as there are slow lights and fast assaults. but again lances would need to serve a purpose.

It may just be my imagination, but I could swear it actually does do some sorting on speed. When I drop in my LFE180 Blackjack, at 64.8 kph, it puts me with the Heavies and sometimes the Assaults. When I play the LFE265 Blackjack at 102 kph, it sticks me in with the Mediums and sometimes the Lights.

I should start keeping tally and see if it's actually a thing or all in my head.

[LordNothing]

Humble Dexter, on 18 August 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

But in QP "bigger is better" was replaced by "faster is better".

I'd say QP teams should be balanced on mech speed, instead of mech weight.

And Livaria made an even better suggestion by saying Charlie lance should be dropped further forward in QP, so QP teams blindly chase after Charlie lance instead of blindly trying to catch up with Alpha lance

speed is nice but sometimes raw firepower is also nice. granted so long as you can keep it alive long enough to kill stuff.

do like the charlie leads idea. they should never be in the back of the pack and the alpha lance needs to be in the back and to the left to reduce the natural nascar tendency.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 August 2019 - 02:03 PM.

[FupDup]

It's not really "faster is better," it's finding the sweet spot that gives you enough speed for most situations while still retaining enough pod space for a good payload. Otherwise we'd see a lot more mechs packing XL400s.

[Prototelis]

:/

I dunno. I suck at assaults and don't have a problem ending up near the front in ~50 kph mechs.


HD really just saying that its harder for him to be nowhere near the team; because there are plenty of faster mechs around nowadays. Big engine stomp meta has been a thing for a long time; it isn't going anywhere.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Prototelis, on 18 August 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

I dunno. I suck at assaults and don't have a problem ending up near the front in ~50 kph mechs.

HD really just saying...

I am saying it's a QP problem.

You take a 8xERLL 45kph Supernova that sucks at QP, you bring it to FP, and it can perform much better there.

"HD is really just saying" that QP suffers from excess nascaring, the same way FP is suffering from excess ranged sniping.

[Feral Clown]

Humble Dexter, on 18 August 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

I am saying it's a QP problem.

You take a 8xERLL 45kph Supernova that sucks at QP, you bring it to FP, and it can perform much better there.

"HD is really just saying" that QP suffers from excess nascaring, the same way FP is suffering from excess ranged sniping.

Except faction play doesn't suffer from excess ranged sniping. That only happens on maps where it is appropriate. You wouldn't really know though since you only pug and don't really understand the meta and how teams and good players are using it.

[GeminiWolf]

Feral Clown, on 16 August 2019 - 07:54 PM, said:

I think it still is needed?

There are definitely maps/modes where I personally believe drop zones could use adjustment.

They also do allow a much broader tonnage than they used to. With this event I am seeing everything from having eight assaults per side to 30% lights, 40% mediums and the rest mixed.

The state of the game is what it is though and guys who insist on bringing 48kph 100 ton mechs all the time unless very good are in general going to have a bad time at it.

With new players being put into matches they don't have the C-Bills or G-Skills to buy bigger engines or even put skills into speed tweak, so yes you are going to have Assaults who do their base 40 something KPH on the field with you. Now if you do what I do and sit back with them even if you have a faster mech, then generally you can use them as a distraction from being shot and add extra firepower to their shots. Its a win win.

[Jman5]

If you think Charlie Lance is underperforming you wouldn't want a team of Alpha lance light and medium mechs because they are doing even worse. Only thing making them look good right now is that there seems to be a million people running around with Vapor Eagle ATM-boats.

If anyone is curious, I looked at my recent games and tallied up the median damage for each lance. (~100 samples per lance)

• Alpha Lance: 250 dmg
  
• Bravo Lance: 312 dmg
  
• Charlie Lance: 353 dmg

So yes, I would say it is necessary to match weight classes.

Edited by Jman5, 18 August 2019 - 05:24 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

FRAGTAST1C, on 16 August 2019 - 08:28 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind if a team consisted of decent pilots all in Light and Medium mechs go up against some assaults and heavies if the skill is evenly distributed.

No, you most certainly do not want Lights/Meds to face Heavies/Assaults with even skill distribution between the teams.

This is madness.

[Feral Clown]

GeminiWolf, on 18 August 2019 - 05:05 PM, said:

With new players being put into matches they don't have the C-Bills or G-Skills to buy bigger engines or even put skills into speed tweak, so yes you are going to have Assaults who do their base 40 something KPH on the field with you. Now if you do what I do and sit back with them even if you have a faster mech, then generally you can use them as a distraction from being shot and add extra firepower to their shots. Its a win win.

Except no it isn't a win/win.

Bringing a 40kph mech to quick play right now unless you are a top tier (who even those guys accept they're going to have bad games doing this a bunch of times) is borderline insane.

The stat of the game and the tendency towards nascar makes bringing these mech not viable.

[GeminiWolf]

Feral Clown, on 18 August 2019 - 05:47 PM, said:

Except no it isn't a win/win.

Bringing a 40kph mech to quick play right now unless you are a top tier (who even those guys accept they're going to have bad games doing this a bunch of times) is borderline insane.

The stat of the game and the tendency towards nascar makes bringing these mech not viable.

Oh I agree, if you have a choice...my statement is saying that when you just start out and you want to play a big mech you simply can't make it any faster. I have had this issue with many Smurf accounts...However I do have the knowledge about positioning and such which makes it not so bad for me. But new players don't have that insight yet. Believe it or not there are a lot of new players still. Funny thing is my kid just started playing and has done really well as a new player, he already went up two tiers in a matter of a week. Took me FOREVER to even get a kill LOL when I started, but back then I would die and then spectate the player I thought was doing the best and try to mimic what they did the next match. Hmmm I sorta got off subject anyway....

[FRAGTAST1C]

Yesterday, I played a few games to get the X2 bonus on the mechs that I'm leveling atm. All the matches that I was in had slow Assaults in Bravo Lance. I'm talking Annihilators and Direwolves in Bravo Lance. Before, this was sort of a rare thing and even I experienced this when I was leveling up my Direwolf a couple of months ago. But, this has been a regular thing throughout the matches that I played yesterday.

It's not that there were a lot of assaults in the team but we have mechs like the Executioner, Awesome, Gargoyle, etc., in Charlie Lance. I know that the MM doesn't sort the Lances like it should but yesterday was kinda funny.