62 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

Nintendo gets away with some **** because they're nintendo and they have one of the best stacks of first party games in gaming history.

[Nightbird]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 August 2019 - 10:02 PM, said:

1. PGI made this decision to become EGS exclusive for profits to stay afloat. MWO wasn't raking in any money so, yeah. They decided to get paid first for a product.

This is 100% false, MWO paid for 5 years of MW5 development before the exclusivity deal, at the cost of not delivering promised features in MWO.

[MadcatX]

Nightbird, on 23 August 2019 - 05:13 AM, said:

This is 100% false, MWO paid for 5 years of MW5 development before the exclusivity deal, at the cost of not delivering promised features in MWO.

Out of honest curiosity, what promise did they not deliver on that they promised backers? I think they delivered everything... just not in the best state. I don't think additional money would have changed the decisions they made that kind of backfired.

[Nightbird]

MadcatX, on 23 August 2019 - 05:31 AM, said:

Out of honest curiosity, what promise did they not deliver on that they promised backers? I think they delivered everything... just not in the best state. I don't think additional money would have changed the decisions they made that kind of backfired.

https://mwomercs.com...-video-summary/

Here is the Faction Play promised during the Launch Event, about 10% has been delivered. Quick Play has always been and still is a bad tutorial to the game, "Community Warfare" as it was called back then was the promised content.

Of course, we know now that PGI never spent the money on MWO, but rather on developing other games.

[RickySpanish]

As a developer myself, that Indie guy was a fool. "Gamers" will turn hostile at the tip of a hat, gone are the days of anyone being reasonable in this industry as a fan, assuming those days ever were here in the first place. Nowadays gamers tend to be extremely arrogant, want things for free, have little respect for the people whose livelihoods are on the line, and usually aren't even spending their own money.

Let the salt flow.

[Nightbird]

RickySpanish, on 23 August 2019 - 05:57 AM, said:

As a developer myself, that Indie guy was a fool.

LOL.

[Nesutizale]

RickySpanish, on 23 August 2019 - 05:57 AM, said:

As a developer myself, that Indie guy was a fool. "Gamers" will turn hostile at the tip of a hat, gone are the days of anyone being reasonable in this industry as a fan, assuming those days ever were here in the first place. Nowadays gamers tend to be extremely arrogant, want things for free, have little respect for the people whose livelihoods are on the line, and usually aren't even spending their own money.

Let the salt flow.

I agree the randomness at what, when and how gamers turn hostile from one moment to the other is mindblowing.
Game XY adds a new color to its costumizer. Gamer: I don't like the new color, you devs are all idiots, a blind one could do a better job you should all get fired.
That is a real example of what gamers rant about and how. Its a total stupid thing and yet they do it.

Why are the devs not beeing more active around here? Because a lot of people here rage about nothing. MWO is a good game. Maybe not the best game or the best it could be but its solid. It was fun for several years and beside what the loud crowd here says, the patches and rebalances where good. MWO was the best mech game till now in its multiplayer part.
Again it could have been better, no question but the way people rant and rage here and with other games forums too is just out of proportions and I can understand every dev of every game that gets angry and blows of steam too.

Like with Apex where they came out and said "Ok we heard you, we are sorry that this didn't work out" and still people where, lets say, very unfriendly.

That game devs care more about makeing money is also because the gamers have become so hostile towards them that I would also turn away and see where I find the best deal for me.
You allways have two sides of a coin.

[PhoenixFire55]

MadcatX, on 23 August 2019 - 05:31 AM, said:

Out of honest curiosity, what promise did they not deliver on that they promised backers? I think they delivered everything... just not in the best state.

[Khobai]

RickySpanish, on 23 August 2019 - 05:57 AM, said:

As a developer myself, that Indie guy was a fool. "Gamers" will turn hostile at the tip of a hat, gone are the days of anyone being reasonable in this industry as a fan, assuming those days ever were here in the first place. Nowadays gamers tend to be extremely arrogant, want things for free, have little respect for the people whose livelihoods are on the line, and usually aren't even spending their own money.

Let the salt flow.

I dont find that to be the case at all. If gamers turn hostile they almost always have a good reason for doing so. And most gamers dont want things for free, they want the cost to align with the product theyre buying. PGI trying to charge $20+ for a single mech when MWO was in its prime is a good example of the price not being right.

If anything its game developers that haven taken advantage of gamers. When you bought games in the 90s you paid a fixed price for a completed game. Nowadays developers release incomplete games for full price. And the whole concept of DLC and microtransactions is cancer. Its just a way of gouging players for more money than anyone should ever spend on a single game.

And the real travesty is that steam/epic both suck. There needs to be a better alternative for indie developers than having to choose between draining your blood or selling your soul.

Edited by Khobai, 23 August 2019 - 07:07 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Nesutizale, on 23 August 2019 - 06:35 AM, said:

I agree the randomness at what, when and how gamers turn hostile from one moment to the other is mindblowing.
Game XY adds a new color to its costumizer. Gamer: I don't like the new color, you devs are all idiots, a blind one could do a better job you should all get fired.
That is a real example of what gamers rant about and how. Its a total stupid thing and yet they do it.

Why are the devs not beeing more active around here? Because a lot of people here rage about nothing. MWO is a good game. Maybe not the best game or the best it could be but its solid. It was fun for several years and beside what the loud crowd here says, the patches and rebalances where good. MWO was the best mech game till now in its multiplayer part.
Again it could have been better, no question but the way people rant and rage here and with other games forums too is just out of proportions and I can understand every dev of every game that gets angry and blows of steam too.

Like with Apex where they came out and said "Ok we heard you, we are sorry that this didn't work out" and still people where, lets say, very unfriendly.

That game devs care more about makeing money is also because the gamers have become so hostile towards them that I would also turn away and see where I find the best deal for me.
You allways have two sides of a coin.

All too often gamers forget that game developers are people too. They have families and bills to pay, and their salaries are on the low end of what they would expect if they took their skills to any other industry. They make games because they love them, yet the audience tends to just spew vitriol in return, and often are out looking to jump on any little mistep. Meanwhile, a select few developers are idolized beyond any reasonable level, Valve software would be a good example. Their actions toward other game studios and even their fans have historically been rather greedy, yet Steam appears to be the gold standard for game delivery. Of course, everyone has long forgotten how Valve acquired its user base - by forcing anyone buying Halflife 2 to use Steam to play it.

[Nightbird]

RickySpanish, on 23 August 2019 - 07:35 AM, said:

All too often gamers forget that game developers are people too. They have families and bills to pay, and their salaries are on the low end of what they would expect if they took their skills to any other industry. They make games because they love them, yet the audience tends to just spew vitriol in return, and often are out looking to jump on any little mistep. Meanwhile, a select few developers are idolized beyond any reasonable level, Valve software would be a good example. Their actions toward other game studios and even their fans have historically been rather greedy, yet Steam appears to be the gold standard for game delivery. Of course, everyone has long forgotten how Valve acquired its user base - by forcing anyone buying Halflife 2 to use Steam to play it.

Valve offered their own game on their own launcher. MWO had it's own launcher as well before the Steam launch. There's no comparison to be found there.

You're the one making baseless accusations that people offering negative feedback don't support PGI. I've spent 500 dollars on this game, and I've only stopped making purchases recently because the content has stopped. PGI isn't a charity case, they get paid for services provided.

[Nightbird]

Devs that blame customers for negativity honestly have the same mentality as people that blame the team for losses in MWO. The world is what it is, you can only change yourself. Absorb the beneficial parts of negative feedback, improve yourself, and don't let the toxic parts stick. No other paths to success in life.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Nightbird, on 23 August 2019 - 05:13 AM, said:

This is 100% false, MWO paid for 5 years of MW5 development before the exclusivity deal, at the cost of not delivering promised features in MWO.

Uh huh. So, it's either continue to work on MWO and try to remain afloat or use some money from MWO to create a new mechwarrior game and see if that sells. Unfortunately for some, MW5 was sold straight away as an EGS exclusive.

I'm for or against PGI here. I know that they have neglected MWO for years. But my only point is that PGI could only secure some sort of a future for themselves by going EGS exclusive for a year. Will that suddenly solve the issues of MWO and have a chance at making MW5 fantastic? Absolutely not. But in terms of business aspects, going with Epic makes perfect sense. I'm not advocating for charity towards PGI here, mind you. We can either get a refund, which some of you already have or not and move on or fester some sort of unhealthy mental hate towards a company.

[Nesutizale]

Nightbird, on 23 August 2019 - 07:45 AM, said:

You're the one making baseless accusations that people offering negative feedback don't support PGI.

I think RickySpanish is talking in general terms when he said "Gamers want things for free". Its something that came with the free to play market that people wanted more and more stuff for free. You can see that kind of mindset everywhere and I highly doubt that its one the whales here have.
The amount of money some people have spend here is amazing. Still its not enough to support a company, even a small one like PGI forever. They have to look for ways to make money and sadly...they where not very good at it with just using MWO as their income base it seams.

On the other hand I have to say that when I compare PGIs priceing to other games like World of Warships, PGI has very moderate prices. Not the lowest out there but quite acceptable.
Mechs prices, for example, where okay. 20$ for 3 mechs compared to Warships up to 70$ for a single ship and you need constant premium time just to stay in the top 3 tiers when you are not a top player?
I think PGI was generouse with its monitasation.

Nightbird, on 23 August 2019 - 07:50 AM, said:

Devs that blame customers for negativity honestly have the same mentality as people that blame the team for losses in MWO. The world is what it is, you can only change yourself. Absorb the beneficial parts of negative feedback, improve yourself, and don't let the toxic parts stick. No other paths to success in life.

There is a line between negative feedback and just ranting. To many people today cross that line and just go nuts.
Negative feedback, as you said, should be taken in to improve and most devs try to do that. If they can do something is a completly different matter.

Not getting touched by ranting is something else. Let someone getting hit by unbased accusations long enough and it will have a mental impact. I had to experiance that myself, small stings over years can mess up your head before you even notice.
That is why we have certain ways of interaction, haveing a minimal respect for others, that is lacking on the internet more and more.

[Nightbird]

Nesutizale, on 23 August 2019 - 08:31 AM, said:

There is a line between negative feedback and just ranting. To many people today cross that line and just go nuts.
Negative feedback, as you said, should be taken in to improve and most devs try to do that. If they can do something is a completly different matter.

Not getting touched by ranting is something else. Let someone getting hit by unbased accusations long enough and it will have a mental impact. I had to experiance that myself, small stings over years can mess up your head before you even notice.
That is why we have certain ways of interaction, haveing a minimal respect for others, that is lacking on the internet more and more.

The solution is taking vacations, relaxing, maybe some self reflection to re-center yourself and really just realizing that beyond a certain point, negativity is more a reflection of the person giving it than the person receiving it.

Now, withdrawing from interacting and the possibility of negativity feedback, that's not a path to success for a business that depends on satisfying customer needs, even if addressing every need is impossible it allows finding the optimal set of services to provide within the allowed budget.

FRAGTAST1C, on 23 August 2019 - 08:30 AM, said:

Uh huh. So, it's either continue to work on MWO and try to remain afloat or use some money from MWO to create a new mechwarrior game and see if that sells. Unfortunately for some, MW5 was sold straight away as an EGS exclusive.

I'm for or against PGI here. I know that they have neglected MWO for years. But my only point is that PGI could only secure some sort of a future for themselves by going EGS exclusive for a year. Will that suddenly solve the issues of MWO and have a chance at making MW5 fantastic? Absolutely not. But in terms of business aspects, going with Epic makes perfect sense. I'm not advocating for charity towards PGI here, mind you. We can either get a refund, which some of you already have or not and move on or fester some sort of unhealthy mental hate towards a company.

All I did was reply to your claim that MWO was unprofitable. It has to have been to pay for 5 years of MW5 development. I also pointed out that MWO's decline was exacerbated by not fulfilling MWO's initial promises, leading to a loss of trust.

Edited by Nightbird, 23 August 2019 - 09:14 AM.

[Nesutizale]

@Nightbird
Well withdrawing and just reading passiv in the forums is a good way to do things when everything else would be the equivalent to talking to a wall or throwing petrol into the fire.

When gamers even take excuses from devs where they admit they made a mistake and want to redeem themself and rage against the devs then just doing nothing is the better option because everything else will just generate more conflict then solveing anything.

[WarHippy]

RickySpanish, on 23 August 2019 - 07:35 AM, said:

All too often gamers forget that game developers are people too. They have families and bills to pay, and their salaries are on the low end of what they would expect if they took their skills to any other industry. They make games because they love them, yet the audience tends to just spew vitriol in return, and often are out looking to jump on any little mistep. Meanwhile, a select few developers are idolized beyond any reasonable level, Valve software would be a good example. Their actions toward other game studios and even their fans have historically been rather greedy, yet Steam appears to be the gold standard for game delivery. Of course, everyone has long forgotten how Valve acquired its user base - by forcing anyone buying Halflife 2 to use Steam to play it.

While that is true to a point lets not pretend that the devs are not also seemingly forgetting that their customers are also people with families and bills to pay as well. All too often they seem to be under the impression they are entitled to the customers money as if they are nothing more than a ATM. Devs like to blame the players for negativity, but it almost always starts with the devs and their arrogance and entitlement. That isn't to say the players don't share in some of the blame, but lets not pretend most devs now days are doing it only because they like making games.

[Nightbird]

Nesutizale, on 23 August 2019 - 10:20 AM, said:

@Nightbird
Well withdrawing and just reading passiv in the forums is a good way to do things when everything else would be the equivalent to talking to a wall or throwing petrol into the fire.

Posting once in a while, "Hey, we're still reading the forums. We note all ideas, though not every idea will be implemented.", is all it takes. Keeping up appearances and all that. Devs using negativity as an excuse to not interact at all is just that, looking for excuses to not be successful.

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 23 August 2019 - 05:13 AM, said:

This is 100% false, MWO paid for 5 years of MW5 development before the exclusivity deal, at the cost of not delivering promised features in MWO.

(Note, you're pretty much correct. Also surprised at how old MWO is as I was still thinking it's only 5 years old, it's like...7 now.)

Technically...
MWO paid for 2-ish years of recovery from the failure of trying to produce a story driven MW5 by returning the money IGP was using to bail out and piggyback off of PGI...
https://mwomercs.com...-blog-0-reboot/
https://mwomercs.com...10/2-dev-blog-0
Blogs 0 through 4 tell the story, as well as all the concepts for MWO that never made it into MWO...
~most~ of which are apparently in MW5 Mercs.

At some point MWO helped to pay off IGP and then tell it to buzz off. With this cutoff, IGP's two games Mechwarrior Tactics and Battletech somethingsomething (an overhead arcade shooter with a warhammer at the front-and-center before MWO's warhammer) were killed off. I think Tactics had some potential but it was ugly as sin and had too many restrictions due to the free-to-play design aimed at finding ways to monetize a player versus player board game where each team's only allowed 4 units.

Then a brief bit of supposedly none of MWO's funds went to this, but Canada gave a grant to develop the trailer, etc. to initiate a kickstarter...and big debacle not gonna get into. Trailer's also there for fun times.
https://mwomercs.com...e-masterthread/
A lot of decent concepts were put down, though some concepts should be quite familiar due to being Star Citizen esque and the ship designs might be familiar... because it was set in the Wing Commander universe (which is two-fold why Chris Roberts was brought to show good faith).

And 4 (but yes going on 5) years for the development of MW5: Mercs.
The moment Bryan Eckman began to make himself scarce after Transverse is when MW5: Mercs started. Though he started that when they were conceiving and preplanning Transverse and simply shifted projects.
Eckman was the brains behind all the pre-planning of MWO, the design, and you will notice he is the one giving all the information on MWO's community warfare. And that stuff is in both HBS Battletech to a degree, and MW5: Mercs,.


Seriously though, listen to Bryan Eckman explain community warfare, now compare to HBS Battletech and MW5: Mercs.
Now I know Eckman got many of the ideas from the Battletech campaign stuff so you will naturally find similarities. Also interesting is while MW Tactics and HBS Battletech are the first video games in the Battletech franchise to make use of the "brand name" weapons to create weapon variants, and while Bryan doesn't touch on it specifically, he's getting into factories for specific mechs (and I believe he also mentions for the equipment to make them) which can very easily expand to company specific weaponry. So it sounds like he was aiming to do that early on.

But it was never followed through. PGI's monetization model literally obstructed any possibility for most of this design to become a reality.

Based on the info provided in that video and in the Dev Blogs...
I developed this concept: for how MWO Community Warfare could have worked assuming that it would have the following:
Players moving units across the universe map via dropships. Mechs placed on planet tiles can be moved around like game pieces on the board (Multiplayer Battletech 3025). Matches occur when rival forces bring mechs onto a planet that is already occupied with a mech force and mech force responds to the incursion.
Planetary use/claiming in the periphery could be done by small groups of mercs/pirates/solos. Big faction planets require the big planetary "victory of 100 battles." (My concept focuses the info on the small units).
Repair and rearm happens between missions provided the base has supplies. Supplies arrive periodically after being ordered with some auto-ordered as needed. (Not mentioned in the concept, but supplies could potentially be intercepted?)
Multiple drops on a planet, assuming a player limit to battles, meant that either they had to wait their turn or could drop as an additional wave if they arrived simultaneously.
Transport weight limit was for an entire group sharing the transport, not the individual player.
Drops of respawns would occur when a dropship was refilled, not each time someone died (no wasted trips). Defenders spawned in the field at scattered facilities (typically mechbays).
Walls, if built, completely destructible.

And got pissed when 3/3/3/3 basically killed any possibility for it.

Edited by Koniving, 23 August 2019 - 01:55 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

WarHippy, on 23 August 2019 - 10:42 AM, said:

While that is true to a point lets not pretend that the devs are not also seemingly forgetting that their customers are also people with families and bills to pay as well.

Seriously...

If the Dev's don't get paid they don't get to eat.

If you don't pay the devs, well, that's more food for your family... they're not going hungry in either case. If by some chance they are going hungry because you're paying devs... you've got bigger issues than this thread can contain.