Watch any of the videos of knockdown, you can see how the mech slides around and shifts. That is desync.
I don't need to watch any videos because I've actually played the game back then. Knockdown issues and its removal have nothing to do with any kind of desync. Stop making up excuses.
I'm not making up excuses, I don't understand how you didn't see the desync and how client desync is bad in a shooter; let alone how stunlock is cancer.
I'm not making up excuses, I don't understand how you didn't see the desync and how client desync is bad in a shooter; let alone how stunlock is cancer.
That is all very good, and it has nothing to do with knockdowns and why they were removed from the game.
Dear OP, You have put no thought into why melee is not desireable or effective in a realtime BattleTech setting.
Melee works in Battetech for two reasons. Firstly it is turn based. Physical combat is an attractive option that carries little opportunity cost. A mech that has no arm mounted or arm fired weapons may make a physical combat action and have no ill effects on the torso mounted weapons attacks. How would that work in a real time environment? Answer it wouldn't. A punch would necessarily look like some sort of twisting motion combined with a lunge. Why would an Orion or an Atlas give up a highly effective twist and splat motion that would necessarily prevent the normal weapons rhythm?
A mech with arm mounted UAC or RAC spam likewise will not surrender what is currently highly damaging weapon attacks for several seconds of paralysis. Physical combat can not be made unrealistically rapid either. Normal ranged weapons can be tweaked for any configuration of cooldown, range and duration. How do you tweak the skeletal animation of a giant war machine? You can't make swings arbitrarily fast or it will end up looking like a Benny Hill video. You can't extend limbs beyond fixed physical limits either. What do you imagine the reach a Direwolf making a kick is capable of with its short robust legs? Five to ten meters max I say, which is nothing.
This gets to my second point, range. The boardgame uses extreme range compression with one hex equaling thirty meters. The compression is even greater when playing the abstraction which is melee. That is all fine and good in that setting, but short range has proven highly ineffective when stock weapon ranges and mech speed were ported over. All ninety meter or shorter weapons have received substantial buffs beyond their original values because their stock values were worthless. If ninety meters was inadequate how are you going to deal with 5-10 meters for a kick? You don't.
I believe those pining for melee falsely believe they will be swatting Piranhas off them left and right. This is false. Lights control the range, not the victim. To think otherwise is folly. A standard light attack is built around the circle strafe. Staying out of melee range is no challenge for them. Also leg humping doesn't need to be made from the front. Crotch humping can easily be replaced by side or rear humping with little effort. Unlike the abstraction which is the boardgame, reacting to those angles given realtime restrictions on vision and limb reach is not possible.
MechWarrior has existed for thirty years without melee without issue. I see no pressing need to add it now.
I find melee to be stupid even though I use it a lot in Battletech, or rather in RT, I should say 'cause RT has dedicated melee weapons.
If you want melee to be an option in MWO, then you'd need dedicated melee weapons to make sure that you're not damage your own mech in the process. After all, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, right? You can't escape that. You'll need equipment to mitigate self-damage even for normal melee hits.
Say the Highlander Keeper, having an LBX 20 in the RA was to punch someone. That weapon should be getting damage damaged as well. Otherwise, it is idiocy. Give dedicated weapons like the ones found in RT and we can have melee combat. Otherwise, just leave it out of the game. It's not needed.
Yeah, those claws on the Kodiak do nothing for damage. Only looks. Would be nice when having no ammo, weapons, the claws can do damage (twisting the torso) like ramming.
Dear OP, You have put no thought into why melee is not desireable or effective in a realtime BattleTech setting.
Melee works in Battetech for two reasons. Firstly it is turn based. Physical combat is an attractive option that carries little opportunity cost. A mech that has no arm mounted or arm fired weapons may make a physical combat action and have no ill effects on the torso mounted weapons attacks. How would that work in a real time environment? Answer it wouldn't. A punch would necessarily look like some sort of twisting motion combined with a lunge. Why would an Orion or an Atlas give up a highly effective twist and splat motion that would necessarily prevent the normal weapons rhythm?
A mech with arm mounted UAC or RAC spam likewise will not surrender what is currently highly damaging weapon attacks for several seconds of paralysis. Physical combat can not be made unrealistically rapid either. Normal ranged weapons can be tweaked for any configuration of cooldown, range and duration. How do you tweak the skeletal animation of a giant war machine? You can't make swings arbitrarily fast or it will end up looking like a Benny Hill video. You can't extend limbs beyond fixed physical limits either. What do you imagine the reach a Direwolf making a kick is capable of with its short robust legs? Five to ten meters max I say, which is nothing.
This gets to my second point, range. The boardgame uses extreme range compression with one hex equaling thirty meters. The compression is even greater when playing the abstraction which is melee. That is all fine and good in that setting, but short range has proven highly ineffective when stock weapon ranges and mech speed were ported over. All ninety meter or shorter weapons have received substantial buffs beyond their original values because their stock values were worthless. If ninety meters was inadequate how are you going to deal with 5-10 meters for a kick? You don't.
I believe those pining for melee falsely believe they will be swatting Piranhas off them left and right. This is false. Lights control the range, not the victim. To think otherwise is folly. A standard light attack is built around the circle strafe. Staying out of melee range is no challenge for them. Also leg humping doesn't need to be made from the front. Crotch humping can easily be replaced by side or rear humping with little effort. Unlike the abstraction which is the boardgame, reacting to those angles given realtime restrictions on vision and limb reach is not possible.
MechWarrior has existed for thirty years without melee without issue. I see no pressing need to add it now.
@Prototelis: Please be less vague. How quick do you imagine a heavy 100 ton mech moving? Physical combat needs to involve moving at human like speeds to be plausible in realtime. Clearly that is not the case on what we see for assault class rates of torso twist, arm movement and acceleration. Magically when punching an Atlas will move with the speed of a Commando? That would look naff.
Speed of movements only matters if you really are going for a fighting game vibe, with mind games in what essentially is a high-speed rock/paper/scissors contest, trying to read your opponent and anticipate what they'll do, etc.
If speed of movements is slow, the punches and kicks might take longer to connect, but then your own ability to block or parry or dodge those punches and kicks are also equally slow, so instead of a system where you are forced to anticipate or guess your opponent's moves, you can actually react upon seeing the moves.
Like, in boxing, the boxers don't actually reactively dodge jabs. Those jabs happen too dang fast. Boxers are actually moving in anticipatory ways, to minimize the chance of a jab landing, or if it does land, makes it likely to deflect or slip off, reducing the damage.
But there's no reason to try to make this into a fighting game, so the movements don't actually need to be at human-like speeds.
you punch with a small Hand with many little Parts and joints against a massive Amor with the Power of a 00 t tank thats drives with 150kmh ...what is with the Hand ?! or you must make the hand like a massive Wrecking ball and the Axe from the Axeman? ...what ist with the Axe...??? you punch with that Axe and the Kinetic energy of 2ot with 60 mh against massive amor..
Mechs not Humans , no Soft Parts thats reduce and absorbs the Power and kinetic Energy ...and Boxers ...why use Boxing Gloves ?!!!!!!!! by a soft Body of opponent
and in MWO to many problems
Animations
controlling
and we have no IK ,while make many problems with Collision and Hitzones ...now 24 mechs with each 11 Hitzones in melee...is the hand now Punch the left arm of mech 1 , the left Sidetorso ? and Front or Back???? or hit the Hand more the mech 2 next mech 1 ????? unrealistic Dreams today ,its ok by a game with only 2 opponents ,not with 24 and how many Hitzones and without all IK mechanism from the engine..A lot of Glitches, Hitproblems, Rubberbanding, Collisionsproblems
Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 12 October 2019 - 09:25 PM.
If you have severely high ping (which you can artificially induce with numerous downloads while playing), it can take up to 20 seconds to "zoom" after hitting the key, as your ability to zoom in is server authorative.
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How can they make it that crazy?
Easy. They didn't want the game to be plagued with the amount of hacking issues that most F2P games have.
It isn't a perfect defense, but it has prevented quite a few issues.
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Does the host state rewind play into this?
Slightly. IK itself works just fine, as does collisions. The conflict is when IK takes over and the fact that server's non-rendered geometry and actual geometry that we see do not match. I recall at one point the server recognizes only about 1/8th of the polygons existing in the levels (which is why invisible walls are such an issue, why many things that appear like you should be able to shoot around or through you simply can't even though they are 3D rendered and not just textures on a flat plane, etc).
Here's an example of IK at work. Note that after the collision we do not stand up where we are shown to fall but instead where the Server decided that we fell. This is also why once when my Commando was knocked with the IK of a Dragon with a then available 400 standard engine (and single small laser) I was thrown across the map, bounced off the edge, fell into the middle and sloped into a ditch.. where I then teleported about five steps away where I stood up just to be kicked (rammed) again.
Also, in the same video, note that after I stand up, I guesstimate where he actually is, firing FAA~~~R ahead of him to the point of completely missing BEYOND HIS RIGHT side, and you will see I am hitting him on his LEFT Arm and Left Torso. This would be what Host State Rewind is currently fixing, as the lag between server and client was so great that people were not where they appeared even at slow speeds, as such faster speeds were impossible to deal with (the Dragon I mentioned earlier would likely be invincible until he slowed down, as where he seemed to be and where he actually was could be hundreds of meters apart).
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Do you know if CryEngine itself and any other limitations in the engine play into this?
It isn't so much CryEngine but the Server Authority. MWLL for example has absolutely None of these issues and it, too, runs on the CryEngine. No other CryEngine game has this issue, except Star Citizen do to its Server Authority. They migrated an Amazon-owned variant of the CryEngine and between that and their own upgrades, it runs considerably better though it still has issues. For both Star Citizen and MWO the issues are with the server authority and how it is implemented, and of the two Star Citizen's is handled far more competently as IK is fully enabled and functional.
The issue with MWO's "IK" isn't the IK itself, but the fact that players would be pissed off that if they go to shoot a leg that is raised up due to IK...and they hit nothing. Or you see an enemy knocked down and you go to shoot him and suddenly he teleports 200 meters behind you because that's where he ACTUALLY fell and what you saw was because the IK on your client doesn't have the same geometry as the server's map so rather than somersaulting forward as you saw, he face-planted instead.
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I guess I have a hard time understanding when it really is not super hard to do in a lot of other engines, even in some older engines that are server authoritive. I am genuinely curious.
Most other games are not server authoritive, and those that are do not have it to the extent MWO does. For example Battlefield which runs its games off of a server -- Bad Company 2 has a lot of IK. Running up and down hills behind someone is really satisfying as their animation both changes to the situation and their feet connect perfectly.
If you actually shot his leg, though, nothing would happen.
Most games that have such an authority still aren't making their IK universally synced. Games where the effect is heavily prevalent such as Halo have a map that's 100% identical for all involved, there is no RAM-saving techniques being used, and in many of the earlier Xbox games you were actually running your game off of the host's machine (which is why the host always had authority when it came to melee strikes; the host would win any simultaneous strikes unconditionally because he was the host and as such, had zero latency compared to anyone else. (Ever wonder why the host always won chainsaw duels in the first Gears of War when it was he who strikes first wins and yet you went at each other at the same time? That's why. In fact that's why the actual "Chainsaw duel" was put in to later installments, to negate the host's unconditional advantage to insta-gib anyone in that regard.)
Anyway, back to Battlefield, try that same thing of shooting over the ledge in BF3, and you will simply float in the air if you're "on the ledge" or your leg will go through the ledge if you're looking over it
Rather than sync IK, they simply removed it in regards to how you stand. As such running up and down hills looks the same as running straight.
Legs pierce through walls, looking absolutely stupid and allowing you to shoot them despite the fact that they are behind the wall in their vision.
What's more, environment IK is also not synched. If you knock a chair or a box toward something and point it out to your friend, unless they literally saw you do it, they would have no idea what you're talking about because there is no box or chair there. And that sneaky disguise you think you have hiding behind a bunch of crates you piled up in a corner, nobody else can see that but you.
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Did not realize IK is still in the game, I thought the mechs flopped about because of model ragdoll physics, or assumed that.
Ragdoll physics is a part of IK.
IK is the bodies of objects and actors reacting to 'physical' entities such as the ground, other machines, etc. If the foot remains planted but the rest of the mech slumps, its because the foot is still reacting to the fact that it is on the ground until the other limbs pull it off.
A character in Resident Evil 1 remake, 0, RE 2 remake, RE 4, 5, 6 or enemies in 7 on stair cases lift their legs to suit the steps of the stairs due to IK, as it modifies existing animations. To ragdoll is simply to turn off the animation (or weaken its priority) and let IK take over.
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Does CryEngine require IK for that effect?
Every game does. The only way to do that without IK is instead of ragdoll physics, have predetermined death animations.
The very first "pre-alpha" trailer gameplay of MW5 Mercs had this in fact. Notice the Raven's death indicates a running death where it looks like it trips. The animation isn't consistent with the slow speed it was actually going, and the entire sequence was scripted rather than ragdoll / IK. They wanted it to look good. And it did.
Skip to 4:33
and pay careful attention at 5:13
The Raven's movements are scripted, Russ's gameplay is choreographed (the other version of this trailer shows a little more of the destruction by focusing on it, but the Raven does exactly the same movements and the other demonstrator performs very similar movements). The Raven catches on fire the same way (Russ's play is better timed with the laser shot; in the other one it catches on fire before the laser hits it) and the AC shot to finish it off is a matter of timing.
(Most gameplay trailers are choreographed; for an obvious one Rainbow Six Siege's pre-release trailer is a good example).
If it had been IK, the AC-shell would have forced the Raven to fall diagonally, and depending on the force of the AC shell, the mech may have started a slight roll. Instead the death ignores the AC and furthermore, appears to be a steady 'glide' rather than a fall. With IK, the last animation would have still tried to play during the death as such the opposite leg would have tried to go forward with the step at least before terminating the original animation, instead it never makes the attempt and in fact drags even further backward beyond the looping walk animation's range. IK wouldn't do that.
there's still a couple edge cases for both of those. not really enough to make any sizable dent in the gameplay. but i like to point at them because its proof that authoritative or not nothing is perfect.
At the time of melee in MWO, the server was NOT authoritative.
Pretty sure that server authoritative was put in place after Ban Wave 1 (for People eating pudding in excess)
Dude in moi unit was on dat list, doh I noticed an improvement in the guys play it was marginal
At the time of melee in MWO, the server was NOT authoritative.
Pretty sure that server authoritative was put in place after Ban Wave 1 (for People eating pudding in excess)
Dude in moi unit was on dat list, doh I noticed an improvement in the guys play it was marginal
I've been here since a month before it says my name was created (as that's the profile date).
For as long as the game was in closed beta, it's been server authorative.
And yes, Melee (collisions, jumping knockdowns, knockdowns, etc.) was in at that time.
In fact, the very first match I played I jumped from a 20 dollar founder donation to an 80 dollar one, specifically because of how fun it was to ram a Jenner as a Jenner time and time again in what was one of the most thrilling 97 kph chases of my life.
And at the time not only was the game server authorative, it was blamed by PGI as the reason for numerous issues such as teleporting when knocked down, hit registration issues, the "0.5 second delay" between pressing the forward throttle and the mech starting to move or pressing A or D to turn and the delay before the mech actually turned.
In the post directly above yours, I even showed it at work after a head-on collision in which the server authority teleports us in opposite directions from where we fell, AND how with the server authority you have to shoot 4 or 5 inches across the screen ahead of the enemy and completely miss on purpose in order to hit the tail end of the enemy.
For as long as MWO had left alpha, it's had a server authority and anything I ever seen on the subject suggests it was there before the beta, even if it wasn't there for 100% of the alpha it was a necessary component before the beta.
HSR was made BECAUSE of the issues the server authority had,in 2013.
Ban wave 1 didn't happen until after the Clans were released in 2014 as up until then PGi was in complete denial about the possibility of cheating because they had so much confidence in their server authority they thought it was impossible.
HSR and override's first implementation, January 2013.
July 11th, 2012, lag induced by server authority and poor DirectX 11 implementation
(Note it wasn't uploaded on July as the NDA was up and kinda aggressive, but instead uploaded when people were crying about a lack of DirectX 11 and trying to say it never had DX 11.)
Someone else's footage. Sever authority lag heavy during the Jenner run after 4 minutes in. Lots of server-side instilled teleporting and "correcting" against his movement.
And some more of my own.
Slower mechs didn't really notice it much, in fact many heavy/assault players probably thought it was deliberate to make them less maneuverable
Heavily visible here, Recorded days before HSR's implementation, which HSR is lag compensation for the server authority.
Teleporting allies, twitchy movement, the works. This is after knockdowns were taken away from us.
I will re phrase, less server authoritative than later, after the 1st ban wave for example, to remove client side hacks that were the reasons for said Ban waves.
Ban o/
Yeah I remember the teleporting
They tweaked it to make it less noticeable, but its still there.
Its enough to get ya fragged and drive one nuts. Calm Panda Calm.
Enough to make one not try and become a filthy casual. Coz wots the point.
For me when close its worse
Edit: They tweaked it to make it less noticeable, IMO they rather disco u than let you see that bad teleporty
IMO.
After all disco gets less heat than teleporting like that.
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PhoenixFire55, on 08 October 2019 - 12:10 AM, said:
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