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Teams Using Spectator Mode In Solaris

Solaris Exploit Fix

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#1 Surn

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 08:18 AM

I love Solaris!

At Mechcon it was a blast and I played a lot in season 1.

Lately, I played most of my first 10 games just for the bolt-ons. Unfortunately, I noticed a high level comp team spectating to help their players win.

Example...
I watched a stealth locust beat down a player from this team in the mech factory.

I was spectating and had the mechs colored by Q, so I could see the locust. Each time the locust hid or began to attack, the comp player turned exactly in its direction from any distance as if someone was on coms feeding info. If this happened a couple times, I could chalk it up to anticipation, but no, it happened consistently.

Finally, the comp team player forced a tie to keep the locust from finishing him by hiding.

I watched another game involving a different member of the team. Same thing happened. I jumped in the queue and played the team a couple times. Again, they knew when I was going to poke, overheat, and my position even after feints and misdirection.

I asked one of the players directly. He denied and then made a personal attack.

So, to make things more fair..as this is supposed to be a 1v1 environment...please display the number of spectators in solaris or list who spectated the match on the summary screen at the end.

At this point, it is clear the game mode is broken because of these hijinks at the top of the leaderboard. Regardless, Solaris is an amazing place to build new loadouts and help new players see some success.

We can also balance this ourselves...
Any PUG or new player that wants builds and tactical training or wants to help other Pugs, look for your nearest SRMx player. We love seeing Pugs stomp back!

The advantage you have as a PUG is that you don't have to win every game...they do

#2 G4LV4TR0N

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 08:26 AM

Happens since Season 1, whole teams helping their buddies. Not pointing at anybody because I would run out of fingers. Posted Image

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 02 November 2019 - 08:27 AM.


#3 Alcom Isst

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 12:12 PM

It's super unfair to have your own pocket-ghost-friend, but being able to anonymously shitpost as a spectator makes the whole thing extra worth.

#4 Dar1ngOne

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 10:21 PM

unsurprising to say the least.

#5 Lurm God

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 01:05 AM

Is this really the biggest issue? I have had no trouble even when people qhost and help eachother in solaris. To me the biggest issue is still the tie lockers thats the harder part for high elo pilots.

#6 justcallme A S H

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 08:50 PM

I don't think it is anywhere near as prevalent as the first post makes out.

I've never needed it and yet been accused of MH'ing plenty - all because I can easily anticipate and also have good reaction speed. Plus players sometimes think they are being smart in their moements but are actually entirely predictable.

Hell some players do the same thing every game, that's even easier.

#7 Dar1ngOne

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 12:31 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 03 November 2019 - 08:50 PM, said:

I don't think it is anywhere near as prevalent as the first post makes out.
[removed pointless ego trumpeting]


Agreed, but Surn has been around longer then you and I R1Nismoid, so I take his/her statement with some gravitas.

#8 Horseman

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 03:14 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 03 November 2019 - 08:50 PM, said:

I don't think it is anywhere near as prevalent as the first post makes out.
Prevalent probably not. Abusable, probably yes (like target spotting was in the first season)

#9 Tesunie

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Posted 04 November 2019 - 05:27 PM

View PostSurn, on 02 November 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

I love Solaris!

At Mechcon it was a blast and I played a lot in season 1.

Lately, I played most of my first 10 games just for the bolt-ons. Unfortunately, I noticed a high level comp team spectating to help their players win.

Example...
I watched a stealth locust beat down a player from this team in the mech factory.

I was spectating and had the mechs colored by Q, so I could see the locust. Each time the locust hid or began to attack, the comp player turned exactly in its direction from any distance as if someone was on coms feeding info. If this happened a couple times, I could chalk it up to anticipation, but no, it happened consistently.

Finally, the comp team player forced a tie to keep the locust from finishing him by hiding.

I watched another game involving a different member of the team. Same thing happened. I jumped in the queue and played the team a couple times. Again, they knew when I was going to poke, overheat, and my position even after feints and misdirection.

I asked one of the players directly. He denied and then made a personal attack.

So, to make things more fair..as this is supposed to be a 1v1 environment...please display the number of spectators in solaris or list who spectated the match on the summary screen at the end.

At this point, it is clear the game mode is broken because of these hijinks at the top of the leaderboard. Regardless, Solaris is an amazing place to build new loadouts and help new players see some success.

We can also balance this ourselves...
Any PUG or new player that wants builds and tactical training or wants to help other Pugs, look for your nearest SRMx player. We love seeing Pugs stomp back!

The advantage you have as a PUG is that you don't have to win every game...they do


I would add that spectating could still be a thing, but PGI could delay the "footage" for spectators by 30 seconds to even upwards of a minute. If this is happening (and I'm not saying it is or is not, but the fact it's a possibility is worrisome), a delay in intel delivery can easily make said intel nearly useless. The longer the delay, the more useless it makes the information gathered.

Not all that drastic of a measure either, realistically speaking.

#10 Surn

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Posted 05 November 2019 - 04:24 PM

View PostDar1ngOne, on 04 November 2019 - 12:31 AM, said:


Agreed, but Surn has been around longer then you and I R1Nismoid, so I take his/her statement with some gravitas.


Thank you for your support!

I am attempting to suggest a simple fix. List the spectators at the end of the match.

Delaying would be a problem from PGI's point of view. Would they need an additional server, what matches need recorded and rebroadcast...I write streaming software and it is not trivial.

Listing spectators requires little development change and discourages exploits because a lot of players want you to psychologically surrender. Knowing that they are using a crutch destroys that aura of superiority.

#11 Prototelis

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 07:11 AM

Sounds like a bunch of tinfoil.

Anyone bad enough to need help is probably losing more often than not anyways.

#12 Tesunie

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 08:27 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 06 November 2019 - 07:11 AM, said:

Sounds like a bunch of tinfoil.

Anyone bad enough to need help is probably losing more often than not anyways.


I think dismissing the possibility out of a slight of "tinfoil" isn't sufficient grounds to actually dismiss the possibility.

Now, I'm also not saying this is happening or not, just that it shouldn't be so easily dismissed as a possibility of it happening. The OP has seen some questionable evidence when spectating Solaris matches. It could be cheating, or could be nothing.

My personal suggestion is, if you can, record the match and submit the recording to PGI support with the question. If any one can track it down and see if it is happening, it would be them. And then they could punish anyone who is involved (I'm sure there is a log on who spectated... There is a log of everything now-a-days).

#13 Prototelis

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 06:12 PM

View PostTesunie, on 06 November 2019 - 08:27 AM, said:


I think dismissing the possibility out of a slight of "tinfoil" isn't sufficient grounds to actually dismiss the possibility.



I think I've watched many of the same matches and played with and against a lot of the people being accused.

This is baseless tinfoil.

#14 Tesunie

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 06:40 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 06 November 2019 - 06:12 PM, said:

I think I've watched many of the same matches and played with and against a lot of the people being accused.

This is baseless tinfoil.


I've weighed your evidence to support your claim... and I've determined your post is baseless tinfoil. You've used this dismissal too many times now on these forums.

So, how about actually providing reasons, dialogue, conversation or evidence that says that this "can't possibly happen". I don't believe even the OP is saying it "is absolutely happening", but that "there is a chance this could be happening, and I have some suspicions".

I'm a little concerned that this is a possibility, rather it is happening or not. I remember in the past when PGI did a mass banning of players, and some of the names were serious comp players who where using sensor or wall hacks... and their comp teammates didn't even know. (Some of said units even apologized after the banning when they saw one of their pilot names on the list.) Before the ban, people complained about said players, and other people just chimed in "they are just that good"... and yet those players that got banned "weren't actually that good". So lets try not to simply dismiss everything without actual reasons for said dismissal.

#15 Prototelis

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 06:47 PM

lol.

So because a VERY SMALL minority of comp players were cheating obviously anyone good in Solaris is.

lawl.

Great tinfoil.

#16 justcallme A S H

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 06:51 PM

So PGI adding a "viewer" list is going to... Do... What?

I'll tell you - Nothing.

If this supposed spec and info share is rife (which it isnt, and I've easily spectated 100s of matches)... Then showing who is viewing isn't going to do anything. Why?

How can you prove they were actually cheating?
Maybe they were viewing to give feedback on the match?
Maybe they are all just friends watching each other duke it out while having a few beers? (Players could be identical units, they could not be).

There is just too much unknown and nothing proven by adding this in.


The only way would be a delay of 10s for spectators. That isn't going to happen. MWO is in maintenance mode and PGI are not going to add server overhead with holding each match and then showing it on delay each and every time on the off-chance there are spectators.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 November 2019 - 08:28 PM.


#17 Tesunie

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 07:00 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 06 November 2019 - 06:47 PM, said:

lol.

So because a VERY SMALL minority of comp players were cheating obviously anyone good in Solaris is.

lawl.

Great tinfoil.


LOL

I can see you read goodly!

Because... That's like... maybe... the opposite of what has been said here.

For a wonderful recap you wont read :
- It's been brought up that it may be possible for players to "help" one another through the Solaris Spectator system.
- No accusations have been brought that it is or is not actually happening.
- Someone is suspicious that some (not all) players may be utilizing spectator mode to help a friend gain an edge.
- Suspicion does not mean it is or is not actually happening, merely is recognizing the fact that it may be a possibility.
- If it is, in fact, possible to be done, then it should be a concern to be addressed to prevent it from happening even if it isn't actively happening.
- If it is happening, there should be ways to present the transgression to PGI for investigation, so if it is happening the parties responsible can be punished for breaking rules. If PGI finds no evidence to support this, then said "suspicious" people would be clear and "proven" innocent.
OR
If it is happening (or even possible), steps need to be taken to prevent it from happening, be it from delaying the relay of this potential information to making spectator names public.

None of this is saying anyone is or is not doing this, or that anyone is "cheating". It's merely mentioning that it's a possibility at the moment. This thread is a discussion on what, if anything, could be done to prevent this possible avenue of abuse. If you don't want to join the discussion, that is fine, but then join it. Right now you've added nothing at all to the discussion, besides a poor dismissal.

#18 Tesunie

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 07:05 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 06 November 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

So PGI adding a "viewer" list is going to... Do... What?

I'll tell you - Nothing.

If this supposed spec and info share is rife (which it isnt, and I've easily spectated 100s of matches)... Then showing who is viewing isn't going to do anything. Why?

How can you prove they were actually cheating?
Maybe they were viewing to give feedback on the match?
Maybe they are all just friends watching each other duke it out while having a few beers? (Players could be identical units, they could not be).

There is just too much unknown and nothing proven by adding this in.


The only way would be a delay of 10s for spectators. That isn't going to happen. MWO is in maintenance mode and PGI are not going to add server overheat with holding each match and then showing it on delay each and every time.


Showing a list of people spectating would only provide a list of potential "suspects" when placing a report. Proving if it's happening would be something completely different. As a player, we can't prove anything and have no ability to do anything about it. It, basically, could provide a list you could report to PGI and let them sort it out. (Of course, this is presuming that PGI doesn't already maintain a list of spectators as part of the match results on their end...)

I would like to mention, I'm not here saying if it is, or is not, happening. I'm merely acknowledging that this does seem to be a possibility, and the best counter defense to it would be to place some kind of delay on the spectators to prevent this from actually even being able to be done (if possible).

#19 Prototelis

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 07:17 PM

View PostTesunie, on 06 November 2019 - 07:00 PM, said:



- No accusations have been brought that it is or is not actually happening.


This whole threads premise is an accusation loawl

Quote

- If it is happening, there should be ways to present the transgression to PGI for investigation,


Submit match IDs and screenshots when you suspect things; don't instigate witch hunts.

#20 Tesunie

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 07:30 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 06 November 2019 - 07:17 PM, said:

This whole threads premise is an accusation loawl



Submit match IDs and screenshots when you suspect things; don't instigate witch hunts.


How about this then... Consider this thread a question: If I report a Solaris match, because I suspect a spectator is giving one side an advantage by relaying enemy positions away, are the spectators also logged into the match ID?


Also, this is the reason comp matches (or at least the ones I've been in) only permit spectators if it can be proven that the spectators are not sharing information to their teammates. (AKA: We had to show that the spectator recording our match was in a different Discord channel from the team playing.) If it's a concern there, why isn't it a concern here?





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