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Kon's Mw5Mercs Mod Plan (Consolidated) (Updated With Ai)


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#21 Nesutizale

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 02:27 AM

Interesting, yes the walking *****....Stalker works well with both type of legs. Most likely because its strange shape is neither humanoid nor Marauder like.

In this image it even looks like it can bend both ways?
Posted Image

#22 Koniving

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 03:12 AM

View PostNesutizale, on 07 December 2019 - 02:27 AM, said:

Interesting, yes the walking *****....Stalker works well with both type of legs. Most likely because its strange shape is neither humanoid nor Marauder like.

In this image it even looks like it can bend both ways?
Posted Image


In many of the images, it usually has one leg bent forward and the other backward.

Even with the torso removed by destruction.

It was the weirdest thing to ever behold.

Posted Image
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The ever rare, better art that favors humanoid leg movement usually centers the torso just a bit more.

But many keep that complete defiance of gravity pose as the very first drawing was done that way, and like the original Commando with the head turned 90 degrees to look to its left, some BT artists thought it was a one-eyed look...and even MWO has the one eye look.

In this case, many stalker artists tend to depict the Stalker with the same leg craziness.

Of interesting note, MWO's Stalker follows the Stalker 2 design of the 32nd century

Posted Image

#23 Nesutizale

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 07:10 AM

The original artwork in this case is...not so good. ^_^
I like the Stalker2 or MWO design a lot more. Now that I look at the images...I think I would go with Stalker2. Somehow the chicken legs make a much more stable impression to me than human legs. Espacialy with the long nose on the Stalker.

#24 Karl Streiger

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 08:27 AM

View PostKoniving, on 06 December 2019 - 01:37 PM, said:

Incomplete and in need of polish, but mine is only 220 polygons. The block is there as a size reference and is not staying with it.
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Well my current hellstar can be found here:
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https://www.thingive...m/thing:3671995

Other shot Highpoly -6mm print of the Partikill at the left side
Posted Image

Edited by Karl Streiger, 07 December 2019 - 10:40 AM.


#25 Koniving

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 12:16 PM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 07 December 2019 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well my current hellstar can be found here:
Posted Image
https://www.thingive...m/thing:3671995

Other shot Highpoly -6mm print of the Partikill at the left side
Posted Image

For a printout, you're lacking the square-grid structure that'll help it withstand the test of time (as is it'll be fragile). Though another thing I looked up has the same issue, so I guess it's common. (We professionally 3D print miniature rotomolding visual samples of products to showcase to big buyers.) And is it the thingviewer or is the actual model doing the artifacts?
Posted Image
Because in comparison, a lower poly weapon I found of 1/1000th the file size with multiple weapons and the full mech.
Posted Image
isn't suffering the banged up edges (yes it's got the heavy aliasing).

I like it, yours is using the Shrek PPC carrier which is one of those things that brings up the main issue with variations of the same weapons. I've only been using a liberal license in cases where the weapon is so generic I can't find a cool looking unique appearance (i.e. every. single. minigun/gatling gun. in BT 3026).
Posted Image

For example, there's 4 versions of the GM Whirlwind/5... two versions of the GM Whirlwind/L.. The full details here.

Quote

I came across a projectile size conflict of particularly interesting note. (First up, the GM Whirlwind for AC/2s is either GM Whirlwind/L or Whirlwind/L for short, never seen it referred to as Whirlwind/2 though I understand the confusion because of Whirlwind/5.. Which brings up another interesting conflict of an identical nature which I'll get to in a second.)
So first tidbit first. We have the caliber(s) of the Blackjack's GM Whirlwind/L. Two different ones. Interestingly.. both are identified as GM Whirlwind/L or Whirlwind/L. Both are written by the same Author, Loren L Colemen. Their settings are 3-4 years apart. I need to look back to find out if it is the exact same Blackjack variant, but it is identified as the same weapon. The sizes are 30mm (Binding Force) and 32mm (Threads of Ambition). Thoughts? It's kinda similar to the M1100-Heavy (regular) MG with 12.5 and 12.7 but at least that's different authors.
So that brought up a second thing of interest but AC/5: GM Whirlwind/5 120mm Marauder (the obviously common use with multiple authors including Wolves on the Border) and GM Whirlwind/5 on a Marauder at 50mm (The Killing Fields) [Huh, Loren again...] and the Whirlwind (as opposed to GM Whirlwind/5 or Whirlwind/5) Wolverine 90mm (Wolves on the border) and again Wolverine simply identified as Whirlwind (Price of Glory) at 60mm.
Given that the Marauder and Wolverine versions of the GM Whirlwind are structurally very different, I think it's safe to say they are different weapons under the same brand name, like Heckler and Koch's MP5 and MP7, similar function but different structure entirely. Then among identical models but vastly different calibers, we have Heckler and Koch's UMP and how some versions use 9mm while some use .40 caliber (10.16mm) or .45 caliber (11.43mm). These variations are distinguished as UMP9, UMP40 and UMP45/USC. So I know we just make a note until they officially give them differing names as opposed to making our own named distinctions, but if you were to make a distinction for them when comparing side by side in a store or something, what would it be? (It'd be useful for my planned MW5 mod as I plan on including all the variations)--Koniving1 (talk) 18:53, 16 October 2019 (EDT)

So there's 120mm and 50mm used by Marauder. Then there's 60mm and 90mm used by Wolverine.
Use them as separate weapons? Combine and pick one? Etc.

In those cases, I did separate them weapons.
In Magna Hellstar, use just the one to standardize them, or modify so that the Shrek PPC carrier's version needed some physical tweaks in order to work with say a lower power fusion engine (having the particles spend more time getting excited as they build up in longer chambers) or as modifications in order to be able to use all three at once with the barrels facilitating a longer range as well to compensate for the delay?

Also the picture I dug up kinda ruins the color I was going to give the Hellstar PPC by giving it the generic PPC blue.

The second image you shared didn't show.
Just reads "Posted image."

#26 Koniving

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 12:22 PM

On a different note, a meander tells me I need to have some Clan weapons ready to go.

Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 07 December 2019 - 12:24 PM.


#27 Koniving

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 12:26 PM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 07 December 2019 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well my current hellstar can be found here:


A quick thought.. Given that it's a high poly model I was wondering how you are accounting for the recoil of PPCs?
Or did you edit that out with the science?
(That's where mine is lacking polish as I need to separate the final ring at the base to allow the PPC to have animated pull back to show the recoil not only in how the mech moves but in the weapon itself).

The reason I ask is given that the PPCs are structurally connected and supported by the tank's armored frame (making it a real pain to replace the barrels but giving them much needed additional support), there is no accounting for allowing the barrels themselves draw back in order to reduce the stress on the rest of the vehicle when firing. Though PPCs fire streams of energy and superheated particles, they are stated to have a kinetic element that pushes the target (and thus gives the PPC recoil strong enough to jerk the arm of a Warhammer).

There's a point on the barrel's support where if modified to have a sliding action, the barrels could be allowed to slide back a bit. (That's actually where the longer barrels make the most sense compared to a mech's version, to have room for them to recoil so they don't kill the gunner and commander inside the turret).

Edited by Koniving, 07 December 2019 - 12:31 PM.


#28 Karl Streiger

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 12:57 PM

View PostKoniving, on 07 December 2019 - 12:26 PM, said:


A quick thought.. Given that it's a high poly model I was wondering how you are accounting for the recoil of PPCs?
Or did you edit that out with the science?
(That's where mine is lacking polish as I need to separate the final ring at the base to allow the PPC to have animated pull back to show the recoil not only in how the mech moves but in the weapon itself).

The reason I ask is given that the PPCs are structurally connected and supported by the tank's armored frame (making it a real pain to replace the barrels but giving them much needed additional support), there is no accounting for allowing the barrels themselves draw back in order to reduce the stress on the rest of the vehicle when firing. Though PPCs fire streams of energy and superheated particles, they are stated to have a kinetic element that pushes the target (and thus gives the PPC recoil strong enough to jerk the arm of a Warhammer).

There's a point on the barrel's support where if modified to have a sliding action, the barrels could be allowed to slide back a bit. (That's actually where the longer barrels make the most sense compared to a mech's version, to have room for them to recoil so they don't kill the gunner and commander inside the turret).

Really depends on the idea to have a animated recoil effect. I considered it for ACs and GaussRifles alike, that it consist of the actual gun barrel/accelerator and the cooling jacket. The concept might look more understandable when you look at the current Armstrong (see below)
In this case the cooling jacket remains and the gun slides internal reducing the moving mass (so the recoil of an AC5 doesn't drive 8 tons but mere some hundred kilograms)
As for the PPCs they also use different principles - the only real description is to be found in the lore of the Manticore- that's why there are those large bore heavy cooled short barreled things. They work more like a kind of soft-sicfi plasma cannon. Some other (especially the blueprints depict ppcs as kind of van-graaf linear accelerators that simple transport and direct a electric charge. As for the hellstar - I considered Mercury as a solid transportation medium - you have heavy ions that doesn't get that fast but the impulse ion impact is better and the "beam" duration is shorter, pure hydrogen protons or electrons might get much faster but you need lots of them, so you need a bigger barrel causing or a longer beam. The next is the focus it totally makes sense that ERPPCs use a kind of laser to burn a ionization path (there was a interesting video in the net showing a guy with a kind of van-graaf accelerator that used a laser to focus the charge.

So it would totally make sense to have 3-4 PPCs that behave completely different some light the LordsLight a compact weapon might have a small accelerator but some heavy storrage cells in the body for not so powerful shots but those at a high rof.

Spoiler







#29 Koniving

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 01:09 PM

Side note I wasn't planning on working this Sunday, and I didn't get a chance to post any 3D models I haven't already posted out there.

This said I've added the Omicron 3000 (was going to be handheld but Unleashed opted for the arm-strapped version) and early Diverse Optics 2 (hand-held laser) over there as well as tacked on numerous Omicron weapons, and started a new format with the Diverse Optics lasers to have the quick summary up front and the fluff in a spoiler [along with images].

(Will post back when I get a chance to read, Karl. Off to get ready for work. Sunday through Tuesday, short week with the offset of my 40 hours paid for free, yay! Gonna have lots of time to mess with stuff this week.)

#30 Koniving

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 02:33 PM

And I feel stupid -- it's Saturday not Sunday. Wife was like "Why do you need a lunch?" "It's Sunday, I gotta work today because of the inventory taking over Thursday." "Oh I thought you were going to the store. It's Saturday."

It's not visible because the file name doesn't end in the file format but letters/numbers and the link is a paragraph long...
But damn does it look good... with the issue that it has more polygons than Unreal Tournament 3 has in biggest level. (Doing that is actually good for creating "graft on" texture work like I did with the Panchor Jackhammer).
Posted Image
(from 2003, using an image of Fallout 2 to make the texture). Considering it's a less than 128x128 screen grab from Fallout 2, I'd say the texture looked decent. But a screen grab of the AC from multiple angles then placed on a 2k or 4k plane and used to graft on the texturework for the cannon, and you'd get the high poly look without the full 3D.
Can even try to have it translate into bump maping (something I can't do with wings 3D).

And the Nano MP from Red Faction 2 (made 2003, learning to get much more efficient with polygons.)
Posted Image

So taking the high poly version and using it to create the textures for the low poly versions is a good technique for consideration.

But like with this old weapon, I opted a decade and a half ago for just making the simpler model, mapping the texture and getting an artist to fill it out however they please. Its also my current approach.
Posted Image

As for the fancy unique looks, I'll get creative when I run out of good art from BT. (This said, like 90% of the vehicles have piss poor weapon art pre-1999..)

Parti-Kill Heavy Cannon actually has defined lore (as does another one that I'll have to look up).
Parti-Kill specifically fires a "bottle." Their words not mine, that it fills up with energy. Meaning it fires an actual projectile. This bottle has the issue that it completely disintegrates into an explosion at exactly 540 meters if it doesn't burst sooner. So there are others out there. In fact I believe you can find it in TRO 3026 on a tank / hovertank.

Edit: Yeah, Parti-kill is on the manticore tank. The Krupp Kinslaughter H-class ER PPC also has a good deal of lore (Techmanual 2006?2007? under ER PPC and in a subsequent TRO 3075 or experimental I can't recall which). However, while it was originally a Krupp Kinslaughter, the entire story of Krupp industries was replaced with a new madeup factory ALSO based in Germany with the same storyline, but called "Martinson Armaments". So now it's a Martinson Armaments Kinslaughter H-Class.
Krupp lasers on the lancealot for some reason are still Krupp... when it's the same company so they should now be Martinson Armaments lasers...

Retcons piss me off.

Anyway...

Edited by Koniving, 08 December 2019 - 11:51 AM.


#31 Koniving

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 08:03 AM

For those that are looking the support the mod...

3D model goals

Needs to be able to fit-and-look-like-it-belongs on many different units. A weapon barrel that looks amazing on one vehicle or mech but can't even fit on anything else..just won't fly too well. If the weapon looks far more advanced or too alien to what is already being used, or clashes too much with the existing art style (anime super duper mega cannon for example), then it probably won't fly. This is why I'm exhausting Battletech artwork for weapons first before making original appearances. (Bit of an issue with BT artwork is some of it is very sleek and many machines are intended to be curvy, and PGI went with a blockish, unrealistic setup where the curves meant for armor protection are flat-out lost).

Needs to fit within the limitations of the polygons established by the game's models themselves. Use a model from MWO or MW5 for reference by looking at its weapon attachments. Excessive polygons can cause rendering issues and slowdown. 1,000 or less should be the ideal goal, and most weapons are less than 500 to 1000.

Need to have "Holes" established where appropriate for the meshes to avoid clipping and culling issues. The playstation 1 era is long past.

All weapons need to be centered and oriented per the direction of MW5 weaponry (I'll have to pull it to find out what the orientation is).

All parts of the weapon need to be "combined" if made out of multiple parts so it is treated as one mesh.

Do not tesselate weapons. Bump mapping is fine..though not certain if MW5 supports bump mapping.

Finished weapon needs to be texture map ready.

#32 Koniving

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 08:27 AM

Some of the changes planned in regards to HUD (sorry not the change you're looking for) and some mechanics in regards to weapons, as well as ammo types and such.
Is in serious need of formatting so spoilered for now.
Spoiler


#33 Koniving

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:15 PM

JACKPOT!

MW5 has a full suite of animations for 2 types of infantry in combat, as well as a number of "decorator" animations for the ones you see standing around looking dumb.

These animations include firing from hip, shoulder, and crouching, strafing, etc.

This just made my job to put infantry in easier.
(Also is a bit of proof that MW5 was rushed for them to be dropped.)

Infantry types include "INF" and "RKT".

It's also a bit apparent that these models perhaps proved to be too taxing on the game, as the Mw5 model is the same as the one you find in the Leopard. The detail is too high to spam these little shits all over the field to attack you with. They need a low poly solution that I think PGI just opted out of doing.

#34 Koniving

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:19 PM

Posted Image
Very upset that MW5's editor is "coming soon." and that the files are STILL locked. But given that there's only one infantry model in the game, it's very obvious "who" it is.

Also apparently they would be allowed to "exercise" as indicated by pullups.

#35 Koniving

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:41 PM

Tech Animations imply that either it was once planned that you could have Technicians working on tanks...
OR... you could find Technicians working on tanks in the field.

Tank assistant 1 - 3 animations, Tank foreman animation, Tank Loading animation, Tank Loader Walk animation, Tank under chassis welding animation..

Yeah thinking about it, these guys are just meant to be in the field, possibly during the tutorial mission.
But they're nowhere to be found.

Also, "Better Human" has a bunch of stuff that I think is supposed to be for multi-player. But this includes aiming offsets, jumping, and is different from another called third person human.

There's also two Garrison workers but I think this is just a couple more basic animations for the guys at the beginning of MW5.
There's a special set of animations and model for when you wake up, too.
Spears...will never move.

Fahad COULD do stuff.
Including idle0.
Chatting.
Leaning on something.
Standing... which is what he does all the time.
Weld.
and a Terminal animation that I believe is actually him pointing at a terminal instead of using it.
But Fahad doesn't.

#36 Koniving

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:56 PM

Because I know it's going to K-town or I'm deleting the original thread soon.

View PostKoniving, on 13 December 2019 - 06:50 PM, said:

I found the deathstar!
And the eyes of Sauron.
Posted Image
And yes, there's infantry animations with full combat animations (except reloading) for both rifles and rocket launchers.
But no infantry combat AI.

Comedically.
There is AI on the humans to "Check if burning" and what to do if on fire.
(Possibly for the tutorial cinematic?)

There's also AI for cowering and finding flee location, so there is enough to have civilians in the field running for their lives during the raider missions.

But before you ask.
No, there's no civilian models.

So they have a full series of AI trees dedicated specifically to having people RUN from combat and cowering... meaning they had the idea and put in the effort to have civilians in the map when you go to be the evil person you are (or the hero to save the people).

May explain why some missions even have the enemy giving a voice over telling other enemies about the need to stop you right now because you're killing civilians.

For context, I got this during an instant action mission on Demolition, where once I started destroying buildings someone said they needed to stop me right now because I'm killing civilians.
And I'm like...
This isn't a military compound?
...What civilians? Where? Am I supposed to imagine these husks are occupied?

Apparently, they were either supposed to be occupied or during destruction were supposed to spawn fleeing civilians.

Side note:
Check if on fire is actually combat-related, not just for the cinematic; PGI expected you'd set people on fire with a flamer.

Edited by Koniving, 13 December 2019 - 07:04 PM.


#37 Pseudo98

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 07:12 PM

View PostKoniving, on 13 December 2019 - 06:15 PM, said:

JACKPOT!

MW5 has a full suite of animations for 2 types of infantry in combat, as well as a number of "decorator" animations for the ones you see standing around looking dumb.


I've already been talking to a PGI dev about this, they are not implemented for performance reasons and the dev in question is still pushing internally for an implementation, temper your expectations while replying to yourself schizophrenically, this a forum not a blog.

#38 Koniving

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 07:18 PM

View PostPseudo98, on 13 December 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:


I've already been talking to a PGI dev about this, they are not implemented for performance reasons and the dev in question is still pushing internally for an implementation, temper your expectations while replying to yourself schizophrenically, this a forum not a blog.


I already stated what the performance reasons would be:
The infantry is high poly.
Individual AI infantry is untennable.

Earlier in this thread, it's actually discussed that the ideal performance scenario would be multiple infantry animated under a single AI, in units of 2, 5, or more. And the use of low poly infantry (and now civilians) for obvious performance reasons.

This is a mod thread discussing the viability of (in addition to weapons), the topic of us, the players, putting in AI infantry, and an AI HQ commanding the really basic subordinate AI (which would also significantly improve performance).

But it is cool to know that it was an idea they had, and while I sincerely do not believe PGI can manage it, I am grateful there's enough of a start for the rest of us to do it.

#39 justcallme A S H

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 07:33 PM

View PostPseudo98, on 13 December 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:


I've already been talking to a PGI dev about this, they are not implemented for performance reasons and the dev in question is still pushing internally for an implementation, temper your expectations while replying to yourself schizophrenically, this a forum not a blog.



lol

#40 Karl Streiger

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 10:20 PM

In Panzer Elite infantry was depicted as a kind of animated 2d marker, it did shoot back it moved and when you put some 75mm HE into the group plus some 8mm rounds they simple vanished.

Given that infantry would fight mainly from fortifications or buildings or mounted (ok the buildings need to become much thougher) you can use them as marker or fixed sandbag emplacement without need to add walk-cycles or to much polys at all.

There are some ways to increase performance (a LRM20 doesn't need to fire 20 missiles 4 can do the same job)





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