34 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Kamikaze Viking, on 04 December 2019 - 03:57 AM, said:

Yup this is what I've always said.
Its generally not noticeable until the target mech is going 140-150+ and its at is worst when a low ping fast light is hassling a high ping assault and crossing his path, particularly when close and zigzagging.

Also worth contemplating... HSR was engineered well before really fast Mechs became available. Perhaps HSR was never built to have the granularity of ticks necessary to accurately rewind fast, agile Lights.

Remember how PGI had the Flea modelled and ready to go years ago, but didn't release it because "the engine can't handle the speed"? Perhaps it was the limitations of the granularity of HSR snapshots which was a key reason for that.

As we know, PGI had pretty much stopped caring about MWO by the time they eventually released the Flea. Perhaps it was released, despite still being beyond the capabilities of HSR, because it the least effort way to release something while directing most of their development to MW5.

[Vxheous]

Appogee, on 04 December 2019 - 04:23 AM, said:

Also worth contemplating... HSR was engineered well before really fast Mechs became available. Perhaps HSR was never built to have the granularity of ticks necessary to accurately rewind fast, agile Lights.

Remember how PGI had the Flea modelled and ready to go years ago, but didn't release it because "the engine can't handle the speed"? Perhaps it was the limitations of the granularity of HSR snapshots which was a key reason for that.

As we know, PGI had pretty much stopped caring about MWO by the time they eventually released the Flea. Perhaps it was released, despite still being beyond the capabilities of HSR, because it the least effort way to release something while directing most of their development to MW5.

Not true, because the locust has always been able to go 165kph and it was released before HSR patch. I remember vaguely that PGI said something about the engine not being able to handle mechs going faster than 170kph

Edited by Vxheous, 04 December 2019 - 05:20 AM.

[Appogee]

Vxheous, on 04 December 2019 - 05:19 AM, said:

Not true, because the locust has always been able to go 165kph and it was released before HSR patch. I remember vaguely that PGI said something about the engine not being able to handle mechs going faster than 170kph

Well ok, you're right. But the same question remains: what was it about the extra 5kph of the Flea that the engine couldn't handle (but then later apparently could)? You wouldn't think 5kph would make much of a difference to anything.

[Vxheous]

Appogee, on 04 December 2019 - 06:03 AM, said:

Well ok, you're right. But the same question remains: what was it about the extra 5kph of the Flea that the engine couldn't handle (but then later apparently could)? You wouldn't think 5kph would make much of a difference to anything.

No idea, but probably that PGI was wrong about their potential 170kph cap

[justcallme A S H]

I have insta legged so many locusts over the years even at 600m+. And that's with my 250-300ms ping too.

Ping is power.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 04 December 2019 - 10:46 AM.

[dario03]

I agree with navid, a high but steady ping is fine. For landing hits I would take a steady 280 over a jumping 40-70 ping. However depending on location you could be more likely to see big ping fluncuation on a high ping server. But if that's happening you might be harder to hit (going by how teleporting mechs often have ping spikes) so it has ups and downs. I would guess a change of 30% was mostly due to other factors. Time of playing changing who you play and style, ping jitter, hardware, sun in eyes, to much blood rushing to your head because you are upside down, that kind of stuff.

[Appogee]

justcallme A S H, on 04 December 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

I have insta legged so many locusts over the years even at 600m+. And that's with my 250-300ms ping too.

This is the part where you traditionally demand the video proof or it didn't happen, isn't it?

But I have no doubt you have done it. So have I. When they're running in a straightish line, the assumed path of HSR holds true and where we aim is where the enemy actually was.

Also, no doubt we sometimes get lucky. Their zig coincides with our aim's zag, etc.

dario03, on 04 December 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

too much blood rushing to your head because you are upside down,

LOL.

Edited by Appogee, 04 December 2019 - 02:17 PM.

[Appogee]

Vxheous, on 04 December 2019 - 07:01 AM, said:

No idea, but probably that PGI was wrong about their potential 170kph cap

PGI would have been able to test the Flea internally once they had modelled it. So the 170 issue must have been genuine in some respect.

I think last year they just stopped caring about what wouldn't work, and took the opportunity to capitalise on a Mech they had already invested in developing that was sitting on ice.

[dario03]

Appogee, on 04 December 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

PGI would have been able to test the Flea internally once they had modelled it. So the 170 issue must have been genuine in some respect.

I think last year they just stopped caring about what wouldn't work, and took the opportunity to capitalise on a Mech they had already invested in developing that was sitting on ice.

IIRC they also lowered the speed of mechs when they changed the skill tree. Used to be able to get 10% speed tweak on any max skilled mech, now its 7.5% if you take that path. So mechs like the Commandos with the 240 max engine used to go 171.1 instead of 167.2, though not until after hsr since iirc we did have a 150ish speed cap for part of that time.

Point being, there did used to be mechs besides masc flea that went just over 170kph.

Also was it stated that the max hsr could do was 170? I thought when they increased the cap it was said to be a tiny bit higher than that. Like 174 or something like that.

[justcallme A S H]

Appogee, on 04 December 2019 - 01:37 PM, said:

This is the part where you traditionally demand the video proof or it didn't happen, isn't it?

But I have no doubt you have done it. So have I. When they're running in a straightish line, the assumed path of HSR holds true and where we aim is where the enemy actually was.

Also, no doubt we sometimes get lucky. Their zig coincides with our aim's zag, etc.

Well it's on all on my streams so that is easily covered. They aren't just on-offs though, it's a consistent thing. I would argue strongly it's not luck at all.

I mean at LAN in Vancouver, MWO was pretty nice there was no inherent delay in weapon firing and twisting was nicer. That however is even-stephen as both players see the same then and HSR is really doing nothing at this point.

Think about it though - if high ping players were underperforming anywhere near 30%, 5% maybe. If it was 30% then AU/NZ players are the best in the game and that's just not accurate.

Also look at any players from around the world the show odd hitreg issues even with 40ms pings. Are they every day though? Absolutely not, a rarity at best.

[Appogee]

justcallme A S H, on 04 December 2019 - 05:35 PM, said:

Think about it though - if high ping players were underperforming anywhere near 30%, 5% maybe. If it was 30% then AU/NZ players are the best in the game and that's just not accurate.

I can only relay my personal experience, which has been consistent while playing a lot of MWO across three countries.

Maybe it's partly ping, partly other factors. As Navid pointed out, local jitter might be a big part of it.

But what was great about this thread was that I finally worked out why HSR is less accurate at higher pings, and against smaller, agile targets. It is at least a part of what I've experienced.

Incidentally, I wasn't implying that your ability to hit Locusts was luck. I know it's not. But I will also wager that when the Locusts are weaving - something HSR apparently doesn't account for as well - then you're probably hitting where you aimed overall less often than would usually be the case.

For my part, I've observed that trying to hit a Flea or Locust that is zig-zagging while running away from me is almost pointless. I'm generally using pulse lasers for better hitreg. I've tried aiming at it, or ahead of it, but very little of what seems to be a valid hit will register as damage. I now know that from HSR's perspective, that Flea is running in a straight line. So now I am going to try aiming for the centreline of its left and right oscillations, and maybe HSR's assumptions will actually work to my advantage LOL.

Edited by Appogee, 04 December 2019 - 06:50 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Navid A1, on 03 December 2019 - 09:25 PM, said:

Second, HSR is fundamentally designed to give higher pings the advantage of no lag gameplay... sometime even to the detriment of low ping player experience.

As someone who started playing MWO with 300ms ping, then played with 150ms ping and finally playing now with 50ms ping, I can without a shadow of doubt say that there is absolutely no reason and no willingness whatsoever for me to have higher ping since it is purely disadvantegous.

Navid A1, on 03 December 2019 - 09:25 PM, said:

So, I do believe that your statement about 30% higher damage is indeed a myth.

Believe what you will. I can only confirm what he said. For me there is a statistically significant difference ~25-30% in average damage for laservomit builds between NA (150ms) and EU (50ms) servers.

Navid A1, on 03 December 2019 - 09:25 PM, said:

A steady ~300 ping still gives you a good performance.

No it does not. Because a steady 50ms ping gives you a much better performance.

[PhoenixFire55]

Vxheous, on 04 December 2019 - 07:01 AM, said:

No idea, but probably that PGI was wrong about their potential 170kph cap

Speed was nerfed across the board at some point. Displayed value and actual value aren't same anymore. 152kph Jenner in Beta days moves about as fast as 170+kph Flea today, if not faster.

Back in CB problems started at lower speeds though. Raven was famous for its lagshield, but only displayed it with skilled speed tweak at ~148kph, while non-skilled Ravens at ~136kph were far easier to hit than a mere 8% max speed difference would suggest.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 05 December 2019 - 01:40 AM.

[Prototelis]

Just throwing this out there; Absurdly low ping. I play lights more than anything. I often eat **** moments after I've moved back into cover.

A couple of the people in this thread have done it to me. It's not worth saying anything about in game. It's 1; how HSR works 2; A ******* online game and can't be perfect.

But thats the fairest thing to expect when you play in a system designed to be fair for everyone.

NO multiplayer game has perfect hitreg, this game has very good hitreg.

The netcode is probably this game's best developed feature. I wish everything got that level of love and attention.

[Mr D One]

Appogee, on 02 December 2019 - 10:33 PM, said:

Our ping does not permit the kind of accuracy necessary for to win at high-alpha pinpoint sniping.

Yeah Appogee, not to mention the top tier Aussie players, and the super ultra top tier West Aussie player, have such massive egos that dare heads can't fit in the same virtual room without e-peen clashing.

We are like Australian Soccer (World Football) good enough to have players around the world in leagues, but will never be World Cup champions.