97 replies to this topic

[Jyi]

So, I decided to make a video of the bad AI.

This video is for those who haven't played the demo or those who have played the demo, but for some reason have not realized the state the AI is in.

If you still think the AI is "fine" or "good enough" after watching this, I really don't know how much lower I need to go to demonstrate how broken it is. I'm pretty sure you could complete the mission in an unarmored mech if you tried a bit.

I know there are also excellent video examples by TheB33f on this topic, but I'm not sure if he or anyone else has videos of solo play.

There are also some other "interesting" bugs in the video, but those are not a big deal. The AI is the elephant in the room.

Edited by Jyi, 04 December 2019 - 09:42 PM.

[Ilfi]

There's beauty in simplicity. Next time just drop in a Hunchback solo, stand completely still and see how long it takes three Mechs to kill you. When you're able to go AFK in an open field, grab a cuppa and come back to well-protected internals, that's when you have a problem.

[Jyi]

Ilfi, on 29 November 2019 - 08:05 PM, said:

When you're able to go AFK in an open field, grab a cuppa and come back to well-protected internals, that's when you have a problem.

Isn't that exactly what TheB33f did?

There -> https://www.twitch.t...ge=7d&sort=time

[MrXanthios]

everybody is praising the game, it's the ******* twilight zone man

[Davegt27]

can you get a refund ??

[Monkey Lover]

It's set on easy mode. I see nothing wrong with the AI. They could set it to kill you in seconds if they wanted. When the full game comes out it should have options for this.

Show me videos on the AI getting stuck behind a building, not shooting at you or something if you want to call it broken.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 29 November 2019 - 10:32 PM.

[Jyi]

Monkey Lover, on 29 November 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

It's set on easy mode. I see nothing wrong with the AI. They could set it to kill you in seconds if they wanted. When the full game comes out it should have options for this.

Show me videos on the AI getting stuck behind a building, not shooting at you or something if you want to call it broken.

I literally linked TheB33f's video, where he goes AFK while there is a fight going on and not a single enemy shoots at him.

It's broken.

[Monkey Lover]

Jyi, on 29 November 2019 - 10:40 PM, said:

I literally linked TheB33f's video, where he goes AFK while there is a fight going on and not a single enemy shoots at him.

It's broken.

Looks to me the ai is going after the team bots before the player. Again easy mode. If you really think about it programming an ai to pick one target over another just to make the player feel like he is a "mech pilot hero " isn't that easy.

This isn't broken it just a selection they picked. They could have it rush the main player and head shot him from across the map if they wanted.


Basically all you'really asking for is it to be more difficult and I would agree. Full game should be able to do this. If pgi doesn't do it modders will without much issue.

Only issue I see is they normally make it very difficult then once the players starts to die they pull the difficulty back. In this case the ai isn't this smart. I'm guessing they will go with number of waves to control the flow of the game.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 29 November 2019 - 11:07 PM.

[Nightbird]

Monkey Lover, on 29 November 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

It's set on easy mode.

Can anyone confirm the demo is stuck on easy mode?

[Monkey Lover]

Nightbird, on 29 November 2019 - 11:05 PM, said:

Can anyone confirm the demo is stuck on easy mode?

I have no idea what it's set to. Im guessing from the missng ratio. Most the shots aren't even hitting. This is just an selection.

https://youtu.be/4ybrDWjL4Jw 

They do have difficulty sliders on there mission generator. Hopefully this adjusts the ai and doesn't just go the easy way spamming mechs.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 29 November 2019 - 11:45 PM.

[Roland09]

I'm confident next year is going to be the "Year of MW5 AI Upgrade", just as 2019 is the "Year of Focus on FW/CW/whatever it's called now".

They'll fix it.

[LORD ORION]

Adaptive AI on an undetermined base difficulty setting...

Pretend you are a potato and the AI treats you like one...

[Rosh87]

Nightbird, on 29 November 2019 - 11:05 PM, said:

Can anyone confirm the demo is stuck on easy mode?

Didn't BEEF state clearly in his kind of amusing "going to go take a wizz" - clip that he had it set on Extreme Difficulty, though ?

Are people saying the sliders don't do anything - or what ?

---

Biggest important takeaway is to not let people get away with calling it a Beta.... when it's a Demo, 14-days (appx) from Full Release. The idea that tremendous changes are still underway is probably very wishful thinking.

[Nightbird]

Rosh87, on 30 November 2019 - 12:04 AM, said:

Didn't BEEF state clearly in his kind of amusing "going to go take a wizz" - clip that he had it set on Extreme Difficulty, though ?

Are people saying the sliders don't do anything - or what ?

---

Biggest important takeaway is to not let people get away with calling it a Beta.... when it's a Demo, 14-days (appx) from Full Release. The idea that tremendous changes are still underway is probably very wishful thinking.

Yep, that was my thought as well. The highest difficulty will not kill you even when you AFK for 5 minutes

[Dee Eight]

Monkey Lover, on 29 November 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

It's set on easy mode. I see nothing wrong with the AI. They could set it to kill you in seconds if they wanted. When the full game comes out it should have options for this.

Show me videos on the AI getting stuck behind a building, not shooting at you or something if you want to call it broken.

Co-op dropped friday afternoon on Violent Blue's stream with her, saltypug and mrpaladin. On the city demolition mission Salty jammed his warhammer inside the empty shell of a building after walking into it. The indestructible reinforced concrete outer columns and roof of the building were the exact size to trap his mech. I forgot to take a screen capture but I think he had his video recording so we may see it show up somewhere for others to watch.

[Dee Eight]

Rosh87, on 30 November 2019 - 12:04 AM, said:

Didn't BEEF state clearly in his kind of amusing "going to go take a wizz" - clip that he had it set on Extreme Difficulty, though ?

Its what the description of the mission called "extreme difficulty" but no where does it explain if that's an AI setting or ifs just the sheer number of enemies sent against you. There was no difficulty option available to the demo version although there is the option to change the skill level of the friendly AI pilots. Its not unusual for demo releases to operate at a fixed lower difficulty of enemy AI in order to not turn players off the game.

[Unleashed3k]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 09 December 2019 - 11:28 AM.
unconstructive, replies removed

[Daggett]

Jyi, on 29 November 2019 - 07:49 PM, said:

If you still think the AI is "fine" or "good enough" after watching this, I really don't know how much lower I need to go to demonstrate how broken it is. I'm pretty sure you could complete the mission in an unarmored mech if you tried a bit.

That's the problem, you have gone too low. You picked the easiest mission availabe (probably designed for noobs), with mostly recruit or green rated enemies. What do you expect from recruit enemies, of cause they are supposed to miss a lot. Your veteran "doppelganger" Awesome however hit a lot of his shots, just as expected. I can imagine this Awesome to kill you if you try this mission unarmored, and i can imagine a mission filled with such veterans to be more challenging.

The only really bad AI thing i have seen in your video is the locust not realizing that his friends are attacked. On the other hand, later on that locust tried to flank you while you were fighting the Archer, that's not too shabby.

In the end i'm pretty sure the demo does not feature the most difficult AI the game can field against you. So for example i have hope that light mechs on higher difficulties will stand still less often, that's what bothered me most in the demo AI. If your locust would have been on the move all the time, you would have had a very hard time hitting it.

Also i think in the demo enemy weapons simply deal less damage as they should to give us a smooth ride. This could also be very different in the final product.

Edit: Regarding B33Fs clip: It's very obvious that the AI uses an aggro system like MMORPGs do, so they attack the most dangerous threat. Since B33f did not fire, he was no threat and the AI focused on his much more dangerous buddies. That's way smarter than most MWO players who keep firing the unarmed sticks to pad up their KD ratios...

However this behaviour can probably be exploited, if they don't do proxyimity checks. I will try to do this mission with a backstabbing loadout and see if they let me do that to them if i approach them without firing...

Edited by Daggett, 30 November 2019 - 02:39 AM.

[Nesutizale]

I think what we see in B33Fs video is the Ai prioritising targets after how dangerouse they are. A mech that does nothing but standing still isn't a threat compared to the ones shooting.
Someone else allready noted that behavior when you make a run for your dropship. The Ai lets you escape as long as you don't look or fire at them. The moment you turn around and open fire it will focus back on you.

So the Ai follows a very simple pattern that is very benifitial for the player. Is that bad or broken? Well depends on the person you ask I think. Some will say its good because it can make the game easier. Like when you are heavly damaged and limp back to your drop, that way you have a chance to get there instead of beeing forced to repeate the mission or load a savegame because you where shut down on the last meter. Others will say it takes away the challange of a coordinated retreat or choosing the best path back to your ship. Like looking for cover and so on.

To me the question comes down to a design decision and that was, I think, in favor of a more accessable gameplay then hardcore simulation.

[Daggett]

Daggett, on 30 November 2019 - 02:18 AM, said:

Edit: Regarding B33Fs clip: It's very obvious that the AI uses an aggro system like MMORPGs do, so they attack the most dangerous threat. Since B33f did not fire, he was no threat and the AI focused on his much more dangerous buddies. That's way smarter than most MWO players who keep firing the unarmed sticks to pad up their KD ratios...

However this behaviour can probably be exploited, if they don't do proxyimity checks. I will try to do this mission with a backstabbing loadout and see if they let me do that to them if i approach them without firing...

Just tested my theory and sadly MW5 does NOT do proximity checks. As long as i don't fire and have lance-mates, the enemy will not harm me even if i stand right behind them. When i do backstab my target, the remaining enemies will attack me for some seconds but aggro wears off quickly and they continue to focus on my lance-mates. Which allows me to backstab the next one.

So this should be fixed. It just feels wrong if an enemy mech ignores my ANH-1X capable of one-shotting in it's back. They should open fire on you under certain circumstances even if you are not actively attacking them at the moment.

Edited by Daggett, 30 November 2019 - 03:49 AM.