Since they do not have Mechwarrior 5 forums up. Have to make this here.
Been watching MW5 beta players. And watched those tanks, and other light vehicles (even the helis) engage player Mechs. The base turrets, tanks, and aircraft's get destroyed in seconds. If you were one of those drivers, you know your life is about to go, in those last seconds. You have no chance at all. Now imagine you had no choice and given the position of a tank driver, or heli pilot. How would you engage a mech? How would you demand a formation of other pilots to engage a mech? Scary as heck. The same with MW2, 3, 4, mech commander had this same problem. Their must be a way of better survival and tactics.
The way the AI uses vehicles, they're basically destined (and designed) to be fodder. A light vehicle here and there, doing their suicidal charge. Nothing wrong with this as such, it still gives a nice sense of scale and the feel of a combined arms battlefield. But should PGI later WANT to, there are a lot more scary ways to use vehicles.
Let's have a lance of Schrek PPC carriers spawn behind a ridge line, 500 m away, and park right there, hull down. Still having fun, mechwarrior?
Depending on the source tanks are either cannon fodder or a thread.
I think it was mentioned with the Mackie that the first mech prototype was able to beat 4 heavy tanks without much problem.
The rules where also in favor of that as nearly every hit on a tank would either destroy it or at least cripple it severly like damageing the tracks or turrets turning mechancis so it becomes either a stationary target or can't fire back effectively.
Add to that, that every kind of vehicle, tracks, wheels or hover had problems with one or the other terrain while mechs don't.
But then there where for a short time some rules that helped tanks to become a more seriouse thread with a new to hit table that made them much more robust. Like going from a 4:1 to a 2:1 fighting chance.
So question is what phanatsy / lore you want to cater your game to. The power phantasy or a more realistic approach.
Personaly I would give tanks a bit more sturdieness but also have them move in formations and coodinate fire.
Todays tanks also do it and I don't see much reason to change that kind of tactic. It works today and should work as well in the future.
Since they do not have Mechwarrior 5 forums up. Have to make this here.
Been watching MW5 beta players. And watched those tanks, and other light vehicles (even the helis) engage player Mechs. The base turrets, tanks, and aircraft's get destroyed in seconds. If you were one of those drivers, you know your is about to go, in those last seconds. You have no chance at all. Now imagine you had no choice and given the position of a tank driver, or heli pilot. How would you engage a mech? How would you demand a formation of other pilots to engage a mech? Scary as heck. The same with MW2, 3, 4, mech commander had this same problem. Their must be a way of better survival and tactics.
Conversation and for Modding (future).
This is honestly an AI problem rather than a vehicle problem. There are a number of vehicles in the Battletech universe that are perfectly capable of ruining a 'mechs day and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some specifically designed for it. Heck, even infantry was a serious threat to a 'mech pilot in battletech lore. If the drivers of those vehicles were smart about use of cover, camouflage, and other common battlefield tactics they would be much more dangerous to the player's 'mech than the sort of "human wave" tactics so many games have their AI use, presumably due to a lack of ability or willingness to code more complex behavior.
Speaking of ruining a mechs day. In TT I used to have an "Von Luckern" that had some mech kills. Okay some where lucky shots like the Awesome whos head I shot off with my AC20. Aweseme kill so to say. The other player thought he had an easy kill with me beeing immobile but luckly stuck between some buildings as cover. He came around just so that he was out off is min range and lost his head while I survived.
Beside that yes, even during that periode of timeline there should be some tanks that can realy hurt a mech.
Also tactics like digging in or have LRM carriers in the second line can ruin your day.
If you were one of those drivers, you know your life is about to go, in those last seconds. You have no chance at all. Now imagine you had no choice and given the position of a tank driver, or heli pilot. How would you engage a mech?
seeing MWLL , its a good Human Pilot by a VTOL or Bomber, the Mech have no Chance against it, stand over the Mech in a High Position ,and her nothing can do, and a Platoon Yellow Jackets wrecked a Mech in Seconds ..fly in cover and Pop ups for Firing a salvo, and the Tanks in MWLL...the most very deadly.
Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 06 December 2019 - 03:28 AM.
MW Waldorf Statler, on 05 December 2019 - 10:00 PM, said:
seeing MWLL , its a good Human Pilot by a VTOL or Bomber, the Mech have no Chance against it, stand over the Mech in a High Position ,and her nothing can do, and a Platoon Yellow Jackets wrecked a Mech in Seconds ..fly in cover and Pop ups for Firing a salvo, and the Tanks in MWLL...the most very deadly.
that's because in living legends they had to really boost the other vehicles to be even remotely fair. in other mechwarrior games they were just things to step on.
Since they do not have Mechwarrior 5 forums up. Have to make this here.
Been watching MW5 beta players. And watched those tanks, and other light vehicles (even the helis) engage player Mechs. The base turrets, tanks, and aircraft's get destroyed in seconds. If you were one of those drivers, you know your life is about to go, in those last seconds. You have no chance at all. Now imagine you had no choice and given the position of a tank driver, or heli pilot. How would you engage a mech? How would you demand a formation of other pilots to engage a mech? Scary as heck. The same with MW2, 3, 4, mech commander had this same problem. Their must be a way of better survival and tactics.
Conversation and for Modding (future).
MW5 mechs have 2x armor structure. The vehicles generally don't even have 1x armor/structure values, and many don't even start at full health. So it isn't surprising.
So, while the tier 1 AC/20 hits like an AC/10 in that 20 damage to an Atlas with 604 armor rather than 302 armor is like hitting it with 10 damage (and the tier 5 burst fire AC/20 in the walkthrough video hits with 42 damage, making it hit like an AC/21)..
If you were to hit a hundred-ton tank with it in MW5, it'd hit like 20 damage should...assuming it actually had the 302 stock armor.
But scorpion tanks with 16 armor on the front are exploding from a single AC/5 shell. So while the 2x armor/structure standard should give that tank 32 armor on the front, it's apparently got less than 5 armor. It's true that when you see one at full health you might need two shots...meaning its total front armor and structure value is less than 10. Considering its 16 armor front, 16 armor turret, 11 armor left, 11 armor right, and 10 armor rear (64), not to mention the structure, that 25 ton tank even at 1x armor should have a better chance. If up to snuff with the standard armor/structure of the mechs at 2x, it'd be 32 front, 32 turret, 24 left, 24 right, and 16 rear.
To be honest, however, HBS vehicles also tended to explode awfully easily (if you did internal damage to their mobility it instantly destroyed them).
Meanwhile, this one tank with twin AC/10s and 4 LRM-5s is tracked (the track is destroyed/disabled and the crew can't get out to fix it) within the first shot... From there, it holds off and destroys an Atlas and either destroys or disables an additional seven 50 ton Enforcers before it is taken down.
(The Commando is obliterated in the next turn, as is the Atlas).
(Also to note, in this ten second time slice, only the green arrow aimed at grid 0904 misses. All arrows being fired by the tank aside from the one pointed at the Atlas are LRM-5s. That means multiple below minimum range LRM-5s fired with most hitting their target and doing damage.)
(Helicopters are instructed to favor driving in front of the player... and recent testing shows the attempts to evade LRMs from trailers is either out or disabled. I know they had issues where they'd crash into buildings trying to get away but that's more satisfying than "Huh, a missile." Boom.)
Vehicles and helicopters, based on the model names, aren't driving nearly as fast as their tabletop/lore counterparts.
Vehicles can be dangerous. But only if the game brings what they can do to the table. These vehicles were designed to make you feel awesome by letting you bully the little guys as easy kills.
But it doesn't feel that way when you know.
One last edit: That specific Behemoth tank is the armor variant, where the weapons are neutered to pump it full of armor.
Vehicles (tracked vehicles) can carry more armor than mechs of equal weight.
Specifically it has 74 front, 61/61 sides, 66 rear and 74 turret.
336 (max for a 100 ton mech is 312).
In MWO/MW5 standard 2x armor, that's
148 front, 122/122 sides, 132 rear, and 148 turret.
Or 672 armor.
Now to be fair, a 100 ton tank has only 50 points structure (so 100 points in 2x standard MWO/MW5 set by their mechs).
For Scorpion tanks they have two variants. AC/5 + MG, and 2 ML + MG.
Full speed should be 64.8kph with cruising speed of 43.2 kph. Its speed is usually 32 kph and its top speed is 48.
Armor I mentioned (though corrected, 10 rear and 11 sides not 12 sides and 8 rear). 64 points armor, 15 points structure.
The laser variant is missing the small laser. But should still have 64 points of armor. (The saved weight is lost in power amplifiers as it still runs a gas engine and 7 tons of heatsinks. But the ton necessary for the small laser and power amplifier for it are not needed and could go to armor to bring it up to 72 points... but... the vehicle just doesn't have the armor in MW5.
Speaking of ruining a mechs day. In TT I used to have an "Von Luckern" that had some mech kills. Okay some where lucky shots like the Awesome whos head I shot off with my AC20. Aweseme kill so to say. The other player thought he had an easy kill with me beeing immobile but luckly stuck between some buildings as cover. He came around just so that he was out off is min range and lost his head while I survived.
Beside that yes, even during that periode of timeline there should be some tanks that can realy hurt a mech.
Also tactics like digging in or have LRM carriers in the second line can ruin your day.
I have the impression that vehicles have just one hitbox with less armor then even one side of the given vehicle should have. @Koniving is there anything you have found that indicates that they have different hitboxes in MW5?
There's an interesting game design dilemma with vehicles.
At least at demo stage, PGI is using vehicles two provide a progression in threats, with vehicles providing the low end of the spectrum The player needs stuff to do, so having some fodder to shoot at is useful. This is a fair.
By contrast, if we REALLY allow vehicles to play to their strengths, things could get ugly. The afore-mentioned lance of Schreks, positioned hull-down at a ridgeline, pummelling our 'mechs with 12 PPC's while showing all of 10 pixels for our mechwarriors to shoot at, would quickly show why 'mechs as frontline combat units will in fact never be a thing.
Still, I hope PGI goes for a middle ground where some vehicles are a real threat. Some legitimately tough heavy tanks, and SRM/LRM carriers for those hectic and memorable "Take it down! TAKE IT DOWN" moments.
I have the impression that vehicles have just one hitbox with less armor then even one side of the given vehicle should have. @Koniving is there anything you have found that indicates that they have different hitboxes in MW5?
I don't have anyway to tell what the hitboxes are in game without getting something to hold still and shoot it.
Looking at the models doesn't tell me how the game has their hitboxes arranged, but I would not doubt it.
If that's the case however, than the Scorpion tank literally has 10 total health or less.
I also can't pull up exact stats.
But here's a complete tank list.
Do NOT get excited about the Infantry spawner. (Edit: Thought I left the spawner folder open for the screenshot, but I see I closed it. Good thing I suppose, there's spoilers in it.)
There is no infantry files in the game, no infantry AI, and no infantry. It's likely unused, like Word of Blake. The only human AI are Techs and dropship crew.
Speaking of dropships, there's Invader, Leopard, Union, "VehicleDropship" and {Redacted: SPOILER}.
Curiously..
They have a separate PPC model for the Manticore Partikill, one for "Heavy Forearm", and different sizes for different mech mech clases in three variations each, regular and SNUB...for some reason..
(There's actually numerous references to a time close to 3060, including mechs that aren't built until post 3055 and {Redacted}).
Huh.
Wonder if Comstar came along.
There's multiple loadout variations for each vehicle (usually 2) so that helps.
There's 2 VTOL craft, if you're wondering. (Edit, it's 2, not 3...)
But each setup has a "BASE" which is necessary for creating a new vehicle, so we could put our own in. If Karl Strieger gets low poly versions of the vehicles he's been making that don't have more polygons than the 25 mechs on screen at the same time for a single wheeled APC... I'd be happy to try and stuff them into the game.
Specifically, one called "Igor"... which has no corresponding name in BT on Sarna... I have no idea WHAT it is other than likely original or misnamed.
And one called Warrior, which is the Warrior Attack Helicopter.
Combat speeds of 162 kph.
Typical speed used in MW5 combat. 48 kph. (Go any faster and you'll outpace it. Though it does short bursts of something faster but definitely not 162 kph)
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