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Different kinds of AC/20's? Not just LBX or Ultra...


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#1 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 11:42 AM

The official rules state that auto cannons come in many different calibers and firing rates.

For example, an AC/20 could be a 150mm or a 185mm, just with different firing rates for each; the point is that as long as it deals out 20 damage points per unit of time, then it's an AC/20, regardless of the actual gun caliber.


So... might we see different kinds of AC/20's, such as slow-firing versions with heavy slugs and fast-firing versions with lighter slugs? Or should we just expect a single kind of Inner Sphere AC/20, and a single kind of IS LBX AC/20, and a single kind of IS Ultra AC/20?



(For Example - A Mk44 Bushmaster II chain gun fires 200 rounds of 30x173mm per minute, but the GAU-8 Avenger cannon shoots the same round at 3900 rounds per minute, so the Mk44 would be an AC/1 and the GAU-8 would be an AC/20 even though they shoot the same bullet... I know that "range" has to be factored in and all that for BattleTech, but this is just a thought exercise)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 28 December 2011 - 11:54 AM.


#2 Kaemon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 11:59 AM

View PostAegis Kleais™, on 28 December 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

Aside from the fact that the devs stated they won't necessarily be 1:1 converting over things from TT rules to MWO, I would welcome not only different AC/20 calibers, but ammunition and manufacturers. Certain combinations could make it so that a round is X% shorter in range but Y% more powerful, etc. The customization possibilities become almost exponential. Makes you feel like a custom-tuned loadout is an extension of the pilot. :)


But if it's more powerful, then it does more damage, correct?

Wouldn't that make it no longer an AC/20?

Otherwise you're just doing 20dmg/minute, whether it's slug, incendary, tracer, Sabot, 00, etc...

Unless we're talking about penetration power, then that's a different story.

#3 Kaemon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:11 PM

View PostAegis Kleais™, on 28 December 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

Only if you feel power is analagous for damage. Power is sometimes an intangible thing. With ballistics, usually the larger the caliber weapon, the more damage it does, but it takes more power to move something heavier at ranges that say an AC/5 could reach. (but understandably we lose some damage with that as well)

Nor are basllistics an exact science. The proposition I was making was that a +/- 5% variance on specs depending on the manufacturer you select might be a nice was of customizing a loadout to what matters most to you. For example:

MFG ALPHA BRAND AC/20 have:
+3% more damage
-1% accuracy
-2% range

MFG BETA BRAND AC/20 have:
+2% jamming-resistant
-2% reload rate

...and so on. There are lots of unique properties for weapons/ammo that can allow for a lot of unique combos.

This would allow you to shop for the type of AC/20 you feel is most beneficial to the type of play that chassis performs without the variances making too powerful a difference (for example, NO brand of AC/10 will EVER come close to doing damage an AC/20 can)


without penetration values in game, yes I consider more power = more damage.

Are we applying this principle to other weapon systems as well?

i.e. LRM/SRM have +/- % to guidance vs. damage.

Then we apply this to armor as well (ablative vs. reactive) and apply the debuffs to the weapons above.

I wonder if this will start to turn into a spreadsheet mess, I'd rather not have to fire up the SQL Deathbase everytime I build a mech.

Edited by Kaemon, 28 December 2011 - 12:12 PM.


#4 MaddMaxx

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:26 PM

View PostAegis Kleais™, on 28 December 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

Only if you feel power is analogous for damage. Power is sometimes an intangible thing. With ballistics, usually the larger the caliber weapon, the more damage it does, but it takes more power to move something heavier at ranges that say an AC/5 could reach. (but understandably we lose some damage with that as well)

Nor are ballistics an exact science. The proposition I was making was that a +/- 5% variance on specs depending on the manufacturer you select might be a nice was of customizing a load out to what matters most to you. For example:

MFG ALPHA BRAND AC/20 have:
+3% more damage
-1% accuracy
-2% range

MFG BETA BRAND AC/20 have:
+2% jamming-resistant
-2% reload rate

...and so on. There are lots of unique properties for weapons/ammo that can allow for a lot of unique combos.

This would allow you to shop for the type of AC/20 you feel is most beneficial to the type of play that chassis performs without the variances making too powerful a difference (for example, NO brand of AC/10 will EVER come close to doing damage an AC/20 can)


Sadly doing that would just have everyone finding the best MFG Brand when it came to damage vs any other 2 variables. Damage is King and no alternative pair of variants will offset more Damage unless you go radical and by doing so you kill the Damage variable in its tracks.

I always equated the AC's to Shot Guns. Same weapon but it can use varying ammo and each ammo is distinct in it's own ability.

Slugs for Large game AC2 (good range but accuracy can be an issue)

Bird shot for smaller targets AC5 (less range but more pellets make for better to hit odds)

20 Gauge shot for more than one target AC10 (less range again but even more pellets make for better AoE to hit odds)

12 Gauge shot for maximum AoE targets AC20 (less range but more pellets make for best possible AoE to hit odds)

Something along those lines anyways. Stopped hunting for real along time ago but I did learn quick that a 12 gauge used on a rabbit in close makes for a thin mostly vegetable stew... LOL

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 December 2011 - 12:28 PM.


#5 Kaemon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:26 PM

View PostAegis Kleais™, on 28 December 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

lol. You're a stat-monkey! (not a bad thing, you just love statistics)



Ha! I actually hate stats, that's why I bring it up, but I work with DBAs so I cannot escape.

Plus normally if they go into depth in one system, there's at least relative depth in any that correspond (i.e. weap/armor systems) to it.

Would be a bit weird to be able to custom up ammo, just to shoot at the same armor properties everyone has, no?

Not knocking the idea mind you, but just hoping if there is any, they ease into it and keep it from becoming a stat war.

Edited by Kaemon, 28 December 2011 - 12:29 PM.


#6 Kaemon

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:43 PM

I haven't gotten a good feel for the direction of the devs yet (too little info) to be able to say if they're going to go down this road (or how far), it would be nice to see a bit (and you can always scale more easily toward more customization than trying to go back if you get too much at the get go).

My only question is how much is my APCNR/HESH/00/Anti-Pony AC/20 ammo going to cost me?

#7 VYCanis

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:57 PM

<shameless reposting of what i wrote up for the diff manufacturers thread>
main thrust behind the idea is that even with different brands, there is no "best" brand as the ones with the most bonuses would nail you in the wallet. So it becomes a matter of balancing your priorities.
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it could be made relatively easily actually, at least i think so. despite this ridiculously long post

for example, lets assume most weapon functions are broken down into 8 modular stats

using ballistics as an example

damage per shot (higher the rating the more damage per shot)
rate of fire (higher the rating faster you shoot)
projectile speed/range (higher the rating the faster the bullet velocity/the farther your range/the less bullet drop you get)
accuracy (higher the rating the tighter groupings your weapon will be able to shoot)
ammo per ton (higher the rating the more rounds you have within a ton of ammo, this is modified by the damage per shot value however)
recoil compensation (higher the rating the less recoil you suffer)
heat efficiency (higher the rating the cooler the weapon runs)
resiliency (higher the rating, the harder the weapon is to break, jam, disable, or otherwise suffer problems)

Give each setting a rating between 1 and 10, 10 being the best.
Assume that there is effectively a pointbuy system in place where a limited number of points are distributed among the various stats

And influencing that pointbuy is a separate rating for Cost. The higher the cost rating, the more points there are to distribute.
So that a weapon with a cost rating of 1 (cheap trash) might have 20 points to allocate where as a weapon with a value of 10 (high end pricey stuff) might have 45, or something to that effect. So that no matter what, any given weapon that excels in one aspect has to suffer in another.

It should not be up to the player to allocate these points. Instead they should be able to buy them as is from the market. At most, if you can hire techs, depending on their skill they might be able to let you "tweak" a % of the point values a little bit, if at all.

The way this could work is that different manufacturers could release procedurally generated variants of a given weapon class on the market. Usually labeled as like ">Make< >model< >model number<"

So Ceres Metals might release a production run of Crusher Super heavy autocannons of varying performance grades and pricings, perhaps focusing on range and damage. While KaliYama industries has their own run of Kali Yama big bores of varying performance grades and pricings but catering towards a different focus, like say accuracy and rate of fire.

And for a little added uniqueness, you can have small perks/quirks that cost or free up points on the pointbuy system but don't really have a rating. Like having the AC only operate in burst fire, or having faster or slower ammo type switching, or having a larger than usual muzzle flash, or having more or less knock factor for its class, etc.

with energy it could be

Damage per shot (same as above)
rate of fire (same as above)
range (how far your weapon can reach)
Optimization (higher the rating, the less damage dropoff you get at range, and additionally in the case of PPCs, the smaller your minimum range)
Delay rating. (higher the rating the less of a charge delay you have between trigger pull and actually firing)
duration/concentration rating (higher the rating, the shorter the laser duration has to be to total up the damage, in the case of PPCs a higher rating concentrates the damage into a smaller area more)
heat efficiency (same as above)
resiliency (same as above)

perks/quirks might include: invisible to visual spectrum (lasers only) (nonstandard wavelength (different color than usual))
(poor insulation, suffer light EM fx each time fired)

Missiles

Damage per shot (ditto)
rate of fire (ditto)
range (ditto)
Missile speed (higher rating makes for faster missiles)
Guidance rating (higher rating makes for better tracking)
Stabilization (higher rating makes for straight direct flights, lower rating makes for squirrelly zig zaggy missiles)
heat efficiency (ditto)
resiliency (ditto)

perks/quirks might include top attack (missile flies high above target before dropping), visually guided, fire and forget style guidance, ripple fired, salvo fired, single fired, dumbfired,

gauss rifles probably need their own set of stats since they are a combo of ballistic and energy weapon.

Damage
rate of fire
Kinetic force (how much knock force you impart on a target)
projectile speed/range
ammo per ton
delay rating
recoil compensation
resiliency (higher rating in this also reduces capacitor explosion damage)

perks/quirks could include cosmetic variances in the projectile trail fx that make your firing position more or less obvious.


Note though, the +/- values should be tweaking a baseline for that weapon class. So that even an AC20 that only has 1 point in damage per shot is still hitting hard, and a PPC with a 10 in heat efficiency is still going to tax heatsinks, only that an ac20 with a 10 in damage is going to hit a lot harder and a PPC with a 1 in heat efficiency will run a lot hotter.

Edited by VYCanis, 28 December 2011 - 01:04 PM.


#8 Dlardrageth

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 01:39 PM

Something akin to this was implemeted actually as eartly as the initial P&P MechWarrior RPG systems. You didn't have just one laser pistol type. You had different ones, which were fairly balanced out, some having better accuracy or more shots (RoF) or higher DPS. So you had to make your pick if you preferrred the Nakajima model or the Starburst one. As long as the balancing against each other leave them on even footing, would be a nice concept for Mech weaponry as well. Of course that balancing part is the real meat here, will surely take a while to get it right and not to turn just one model into "FOTM" and the others redundant.

#9 MaddMaxx

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 06:08 PM

View PostAegis Kleais™, on 28 December 2011 - 12:29 PM, said:

Well, not to be confrontational in anyway, but I am of the belief that Damage is not king. (Though I understand what you're saying) In order to offset Damage bonuses, damage could be a unique trait, where usually when you +something by X%, you make sure something else is -something by the same amount. Maybe damage bonuses could have a higher "cost". For example, +2% damage could have a -6% range and -4% accuracy to offset it (just an idea).


No worries. I do wonder that having that type of Ammo system in place would not force a need for more Armor types. If we get just the basic 3, Reactive, Reflective and Ferrous, what is the point of adding complexity just for the sake of having it in?

The BTU already has a plethora of weapons and ammo and armor. The Dev have to decide how to select the best combination in order to best be able to Balance them in the end game. Added extra stats with + gives and % takes still invariably end up with a "best of" with the rest being ignored to the point of wondering why they even bothered with them (the ammo or weapons)

Best to keep it nice and neat and more precisely Balanced across the board. (no pun intended)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 28 December 2011 - 06:09 PM.


#10 guardiandashi

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 07:49 PM

well in regards to armor, the easy stats to "tweek" would be:
ballistic/impact resistance
energy resistance
and whatever resistance would be most effective against missiles

other places for "variables"
thermal transfer (higher % means it acts as if the mech has addititional heatsinks (I would expect very large % to have relatively small effects IE no more than an effective 1-2 extra HS or so

reactions to various sensors IE larger/smaller em/optical/ir/radar etc signature

armor per ton etc

I could see increased armor/ton being fluffed as proto ff armor
I could see anti penetration armors being precursors to "hardened" or ferro llamelor armors etc.
a slight energy resist being proto reflec armor etc.





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