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Mw5 Hardpoints, Did I See It Correct?


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#1 SantaTheBest

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 02:53 AM

Hello guys,
I don't have the game right now, because even if I'm a huge fan, I'm not sure of this game at 100%.

Let me ask you something on Hardpoints in this game.

Let's take a Jenner JR7-D for example, it should have 2 energy slots for every arm (forget about tonnage for now).
  • In BATTLETECH, from HS, I can equip 2 Large Lasers per arm, even 2 PCC if I like. Because it says 2 energy and those two can be what I like. The only restriction is number and space.
  • In MW5, looking at some streamer looks a lot different, but please let me know if I'm wrong. You can't equip 2 Large Laser, even if you have two hardpoints, but just 2 SMALL lasers or 2 medium. There is a rule where you can't put something bigger because of space restriction. Is this correct?
It looks like a huge limitation of freedom on how to build mech (I know that even sensors and engine are stripped away but is fine), because you can't much min-max and personalize them.

I don't have seen how it works on a bigger mech with more free Hardpoints, like the Thunderbolt TDR-5SS on the right arm, with 1 free Hardpoint and a PCC mounted.. what I can put in the remaining one? Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by SantaTheBest, 13 December 2019 - 02:56 AM.


#2 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 03:35 AM

Yes, hardpoints are restricted by their size (small, medium, large) and you can only put weapons of equivalent or smaller size in them. Also, the TDR-5SS only has one large hardpoint in its right arm.

#3 SantaTheBest

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 03:48 AM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 13 December 2019 - 03:35 AM, said:

Yes, hardpoints are restricted by their size (small, medium, large) and you can only put weapons of equivalent or smaller size in them. Also, the TDR-5SS only has one large hardpoint in its right arm.


Thanks for your reply. Looks a strange choice doing like that.

#4 Odanan

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 04:41 AM

View PostSantaTheBest, on 13 December 2019 - 03:48 AM, said:

Thanks for your reply. Looks a strange choice doing like that.

It's a deliberate (and lore accurate) game design choice, and I approve it entirely.

#5 The Amazing Atomic Spaniel

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 04:54 AM

It's a really good choice - stops all mechs being just "gunbags" with little variation in load-out.

#6 Prototelis

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 05:03 AM

Not a good choice, not lore accurate.

#7 Karl Streiger

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 05:23 AM

View PostOdanan, on 13 December 2019 - 04:41 AM, said:

It's a deliberate (and lore accurate) game design choice, and I approve it entirely.

Wrong, plain wrong.... its a PGI developed system to give you a half arsed difference between different variants, nothing more.

No I feel sick and dirty, have liked a Prototelis post....Posted Image

Lore Accurate would be a Field Modification Kit that allows you to replace a Large Laser with up to two medium pulse laser (same crit less or same weight - this is RefitKit A,
so far - but you can replace a AC10 with two large lasers, or a AC 5 with a PPC.... heck a more lore conform system would allow to replace the SRM4 of the Jenner with a Large Laser, or place a Large Laser in one ear and 2 SRM 6s in the other ear of your CPLT-C1.....

Edited by Karl Streiger, 13 December 2019 - 05:24 AM.


#8 Nesutizale

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:12 AM

Lore is a bit wishy washy there. On the one hand its sometimes stated that mechs are hard to modify, thats why Clan Omnitech was such a big surpise to the IS with Mechs beeing modified on the fly, so to speak.

On the other hand you have the "field kits" that allow for, sometimes, heavy modifications.

I think that a better representation would have been to say:

A) As long as you are limited to your dropship, the current MW5 mechlab will be used because you don't have the tools, personal or whatever on your ship. Lets be real, the Leo is made to bringing mechs down to a planet and back into space or move them from point A to point B on a planet.
Its far less suited for heavy modifications like you might find it on a Union or Overlord dropship.

B] When you go to an industrial HUB and have a good standing with the people there, you can do bigger modifications there like replaceing the reactor or change a large hardpoint to 3 medium or 5 small ones. It will cost you a lot of time and money but can be done.

That way you could have a lorefriendly setup as well as haveing the option to change things to your hearts contend.

Edited by Nesutizale, 13 December 2019 - 06:12 AM.


#9 Prototelis

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:14 AM

View PostNesutizale, on 13 December 2019 - 06:12 AM, said:

Lore is a bit wishy washy there.


Battlemech construction rules are not "wishy washy"

#10 Nesutizale

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:16 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 13 December 2019 - 06:14 AM, said:

Battlemech construction rules are not "wishy washy"


Construction rules are for construction, not modifying and far less are they for lore purpose but giveing tabletop players some more stuff to do.

#11 Prototelis

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:18 AM

The construction rules already reflect how long and how difficult modifications and repairs are to make.

#12 Nesutizale

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:29 AM

I remember cost and if stuff is avaible in a certain time periode but nothing about the time and difficulty of modifications. Where does one find these values?

#13 5th Fedcom Rat

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 07:07 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 13 December 2019 - 05:23 AM, said:

Wrong, plain wrong.... its a PGI developed system


No it's a FASA Interactive/Microsoft developed system, from Mechwarrior 4.

#14 MischiefSC

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 07:16 AM

Even the most wealthy and powerful mercs like Wolfs Dragoons didn't have 'Gunbag' mechs.

Wildly customized mechs, literally even as much as we have right now, are incredibly rare outside of Solaris and even then it's largely 'sized hardpoints'.

Absolutely and without question there's no real viable 'lore' to justify gunbag mech customization.

Beyond that it comes down to balance. The AI has stock mechs, the more customization players can do the more of an advantage the player has, the less value there is to having multiple variants of even a wide variety of mechs and the less challenge the player has in playing the game as you just need a handful of mechs you can make be vastly superior to anything the AI has.

So it'll be a thing you can do with modding but genuinely has no good gameplay reason to be in game aside from making it vastly easier for the player and eliminating progression, mech/build rarity, any point of Hero mechs and rare mech finds, etc.

It's not 'lazy'. Game balance decisions are not about difficulty but where and how the game challenges the player. MW5, much like Battletech the tabletop game, is not about 'can I spend 55 tons to build the best possible killing machine that's superior to every other killing machine' but 'I have a Griffin, he has a Wolverine, can I manage range well enough to cripple him before he gets into SRM range'. Because a Griffin and a Wolverine are specific mechs with specific profiles, strengths and weaknesses.

Put this way - take Super Smash Bros, or Street Fighter or any other fighting game. If you can just put all the moves and abilities together into whatever character you want of course you can make one that's absurdly superior to everyone else. If you enjoy that, great - but that's going to eliminate all the real challenge from the game.

MW5 is PvE. The enemy is not customizing their mechs. All the customization you get is an advantage already, comparable with what the greatest heroes on Battletech lore could do. Gunbag customization just makes that broken. Do that as a mod in your own game but for balance reasons it wouldn't work in SP.

#15 Prototelis

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 07:42 AM

Lol except most of the mechs in this game are jigglypuff.

You can have all of the things you outlined in your post without most mechs in the game being made objectively terrible. Forcing board game balance into the FPS does not work.

#16 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 07:50 AM

View PostNesutizale, on 13 December 2019 - 06:12 AM, said:

Lore is a bit wishy washy there. On the one hand its sometimes stated that mechs are hard to modify, thats why Clan Omnitech was such a big surpise to the IS with Mechs beeing modified on the fly, so to speak.

On the other hand you have the "field kits" that allow for, sometimes, heavy modifications.

I think that a better representation would have been to say:

A) As long as you are limited to your dropship, the current MW5 mechlab will be used because you don't have the tools, personal or whatever on your ship. Lets be real, the Leo is made to bringing mechs down to a planet and back into space or move them from point A to point B on a planet.
Its far less suited for heavy modifications like you might find it on a Union or Overlord dropship.

B] When you go to an industrial HUB and have a good standing with the people there, you can do bigger modifications there like replaceing the reactor or change a large hardpoint to 3 medium or 5 small ones. It will cost you a lot of time and money but can be done.

That way you could have a lorefriendly setup as well as haveing the option to change things to your hearts contend.


I don't think PGI would be too enthusiastic at having to visually represent all those hardpoints that most people will not see.

#17 Prototelis

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 07:53 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 13 December 2019 - 07:50 AM, said:

I don't think PGI would be too enthusiastic at having to visually represent all those hardpoints that most people will not see.


They can already visually represent all of the hardpoints they already have GEO for in MWO with minimal efffort.

You're going to see this in mods, and you'll see a lot of hardpoint geo mirrored or used elsewhere too.

#18 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 08:01 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 13 December 2019 - 07:53 AM, said:


They can already visually represent all of the hardpoints they already have GEO for in MWO with minimal efffort.

You're going to see this in mods, and you'll see a lot of hardpoint geo mirrored or used elsewhere too.


They'd need to transfer models from MWO then. The lack of hardpoint inflation means there's not a whole lot of mech geometry in game with extra hardpoint geometry, unless PGI included those models in MW5 for modders' sake.

#19 Prototelis

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 08:06 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 13 December 2019 - 08:01 AM, said:

They'd need to transfer models from MWO then.


Thank god it's stupidly easy to do then, right?

#20 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 08:13 AM

View PostPrototelis, on 13 December 2019 - 07:42 AM, said:

Forcing board game balance into the FPS does not work.


SP? Yes, it would.

MP focused on team-play and general optimisation of builds and what-not? Nope, it would not.





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