6 replies to this topic

[Drenzul]

Its not a BAD game, but it feels really rushed/half finished.

The maps themselves are quite good, but the enemies are horrible.
AI-wise and level design wise. Quite often they will just decide to
randomly swarm you from everywhere on the map at once.

The AI barely works, light mechs stand in front of assault mechs and
try to go toe to toe. LRM mechs charge in and stand there uselessly,
sniper mechs core their buddies from behind.

Spawn mechanics are horrible. Don't drop a full lance literally right on
the players head with no warning.

The development side to both your character and the others in the game
and the acquirement of new mechs are boring and not something
the player can control. Random hero mechs popping up on the map
is not a great mechanic. So many better ways to do this.

The absolutely gimped customisation options basically your mechs have
a fairly fixed loadout, not much choice. Can't even modify engine sizes.

And the UI.... omg, it makes me thing of this:
https://assets.amuni...224005056a9545d

Sensor mechanics vary between strange and nonexistent as well. Often
i'm looking at a flyer but can't actually target it....

This feels more like Mechwarrior - Arcade than a really mechwarrior game
as well.

[Peter2k]

Shrugs
The spawning has been acknowledged, and I think patched as of today or yesterday

The AI in the beginning is all pug bottom skill, except lights definitely circle my mechs

The vehicle AI in older games wasn't really exceptionally, will see when difficulty ramps up, but frankly with the sheer numbers sometimes I'm glad the AI isn't on par with elite human players, loosing enough arm weapons as it is

Only nagging I have is the acknowledged issue of AI not using JJ

Sensor range of that old tech base is kinda terrible
I'd be glad for a 360° sensor suite already, but we don't have that in MWO either

Whishing there would be skills like in mech commander or in a cut down state like MWO to lvl up pilots (or like Battletech for that matter)

Can't wait for the mechlab to be modded
Gonna play through it standard at least once

[Koniving]

Drenzul, on 20 December 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

Its not a BAD game, but it feels really rushed/half finished.

1) The maps themselves are quite good, but the enemies are horrible.
AI-wise and level design wise. Quite often they will just decide to
randomly swarm you from everywhere on the map at once.

2) The AI barely works, light mechs stand in front of assault mechs and
try to go toe to toe. LRM mechs charge in and stand there uselessly,
sniper mechs core their buddies from behind.

3) Spawn mechanics are horrible. Don't drop a full lance literally right on
the players head with no warning.

4) The development side to both your character and the others in the game
and the acquirement of new mechs are boring and not something
the player can control. Random hero mechs popping up on the map
is not a great mechanic. So many better ways to do this.

5) The absolutely gimped customisation options basically your mechs have
a fairly fixed loadout, not much choice. Can't even modify engine sizes.

And the UI.... omg, it makes me thing of this:
https://assets.amuni...224005056a9545d

6) Sensor mechanics vary between strange and nonexistent as well. Often
i'm looking at a flyer but can't actually target it....

7) This feels more like Mechwarrior - Arcade than a really mechwarrior game
as well.

It is unfinished. There's a lot of unused animations, such as people being set on fire, crew members doing pullups, etc. Issues PGI had with its level generation system and AI led them to eat up a lot of time on those rather than polish the other stuff, so much that the deal with Epic wasn't just about some guaranteed sales or an initial payout but the engine support it comes with (since you're not entitled to engine support for the Unreal engine given that its license is free unless you sell more than a certain amount), further bogged down by a forced release window that's standard for contracts with Epic, Steam, etc. (must release within 6 months of signing the deal, extensions possible but pretty hard to get.)

1) When they spawn further away they do perform a bit better. As you approach places that you think will have enemies, look away.. They won't spawn while you are looking at their spawns -- and the game does not take into account any obstructions so that giant cliff face blocking off where the enemies would spawn doesn't count because PGI didn't factor it into their quick patchwork frankenstein. Just look the other way -- literally -- and they can appear out to 900 meters away (provided you're 900 meters from their spawn points).

2) If a light is doing this, one of a few things happened. A] You broke his circle of death. B] Something else broke his circle of death. C] It ran into something and derped. D] It couldn't decide what it wanted to be based on its loadout. E] You're too close. Seriously it breaks if you get too close to a light. F] It ran out of ammunition/weapons. The instant they don't have a way to fight they give up on life. LRMs don't count toward this; even if they have LRMs they give up on life.

3) See number 1. Just look away and they will spawn. Do this far earlier.

4) Completely agree. Will be working on changing this. Russ's "You're gonna like what we've done" implication suggested something far better than what we got...and no, random heroes being available in stores before the heroes even exist is not liking what was done.

5) Technically, mercs wouldn't really be able to modify engine sizes anyway. But the lack of any depth to the mech variants, weapons, and variants of those weapons which could've made it far better isn't helping either.

For example additional hardpoints or alternatively sized hardpoints for mechs of very similar natures. Weapon variants could have included canonical undersized/oversized variants such as the Defiance Thunderbolt A5M large laser which is a compact large laser made to fit into a very small area, or the Cyclops Large Laser/PPC Hybrid compact large laser which not only ran on the Drillson but is what the first Wolfhounds came with for mercenary use (Fourth Succession War Battlepack) before changing to another large laser with better range for the 1A that the Lyrans actually use (which is not compact and has a longer protruding barrel), meaning Wolfhound 1 could have a medium slot right arm and 1A would then have a large slot, and they would have different default large lasers, with the 1A being more valuable than the 1 due to the larger slot as just one of many possible examples.

6) I have not had this issue; unless you're talking about beyond 800 meters. I've had the issue where I'm targeting a VTOL but can't find it until it flies in front of me.

7) MechAssault from an FPS view and tank controls?

Edited by Koniving, 20 December 2019 - 05:43 PM.

[Drenzul]

2) Fair enough but you get what I mean about the AI in general.
Heavier mechs will stand there and try and tank 4 enemy mechs shooting at them instead of taking cover and re-grouping.

For a game that practically makes you take AI partners, having the friendly AI not been completely incompetent would be nice!

Not been cored from behind by my team-mate with twin gauss would also be nice!

5) The mercs themselves may not be, but the industrial planets you visit can do it for a fee!
Its not that difficult to switch to a different engine. Same as it shouldn't be difficult to swap out say 2 medium lasers for a large laser or visa-versa but apparently logic doesn't apply here!

6) Yes was talking about at range.
But there is a whole bit of battle-tech lore about the sensors. What you are using is not radar but neutrino sensors, which are not precise and don't give you much a clue about what the enemy is, but at least lets you know they are there. Hence the whole power-down ambush mechanic in previous MW titles, as the only way to stop your fusion reactor from outputting neutrinos is to turn it off.
Missile Lock and actually been able to target an enemy are separate from this and do require line of sight or a buddy who can target for you.

7) I think you are misunderstanding me.
The mechwarrior titles previously always tried to be as 'sim' like as possible.

This feels more arcade like with the constant swarms of enemies right in your face e.t.c.
Was referring to the feel of the game-play rather than individual mechanics.
I don't object to 3rd person view, I just wish the drone was visible and destroy-able

[Koniving]

Drenzul, on 20 December 2019 - 07:50 PM, said:

2) Fair enough but you get what I mean about the AI in general.
Heavier mechs will stand there and try and tank 4 enemy mechs shooting at them instead of taking cover and re-grouping.

For a game that practically makes you take AI partners, having the friendly AI not been completely incompetent would be nice!

Not been cored from behind by my team-mate with twin gauss would also be nice!

5) The mercs themselves may not be, but the industrial planets you visit can do it for a fee!
Its not that difficult to switch to a different engine. Same as it shouldn't be difficult to swap out say 2 medium lasers for a large laser or visa-versa but apparently logic doesn't apply here!

6) Yes was talking about at range.
But there is a whole bit of battle-tech lore about the sensors. What you are using is not radar but neutrino sensors, which are not precise and don't give you much a clue about what the enemy is, but at least lets you know they are there. Hence the whole power-down ambush mechanic in previous MW titles, as the only way to stop your fusion reactor from outputting neutrinos is to turn it off.
Missile Lock and actually been able to target an enemy are separate from this and do require line of sight or a buddy who can target for you.

7) I think you are misunderstanding me.
The mechwarrior titles previously always tried to be as 'sim' like as possible.

This feels more arcade like with the constant swarms of enemies right in your face e.t.c.
Was referring to the feel of the game-play rather than individual mechanics.
I don't object to 3rd person view, I just wish the drone was visible and destroy-able

7)
MechAssault is a "mechwarrior" that tossed the lore and fluff out the window whenever it pleased to give an arcade action shooter experience in third person.

I got what you meant, just pointing it out with an example of something Microsoft actually wanted PGI to do with the original pre-2012 "Mechwarrior 5" according to Dev Blog 0.

2) From what I seen in the game's pak files, when exporting the UAsset for various AI trees, the mechs do in fact have a sense for their health and to leave combat.
However, two things interfere with it.
First) An enemy within weapons range of 540 or less returns that the mech must continue fighting regardless of health. Otherwise it would try to.
Second) Every single time the mech is hit, a response tree is called which then evaluates a new target. This is the reason you'll see AI derp and be unable to decide on a target like in JYI's video showing an AI lancemate derping out instead of prioritizing the most dangerous or largest target. As such if 4 enemies are hitting the mech, I doubt the pilot has any coherent thought as to what to do, so either you got a Hardcase scenario or you've got a Jag in a Big Al Interception situation, or a cocky Panther problem. No matter what...your guy is screwed.

Now if it helps... Anyone that is low on health if you want them to withdraw, need to be NOT ordered to be in formation, so you need to order them to go elsewhere and NOT attack your target. Then once enemies are outside of their weapons range, they'll try to stay in that area. Your guys cannot withdraw. The enemies can, but their withdraw actually doesn't go anywhere... They just leave the combat and go toward the edge of the map, if they do that (half can't even do this because detecting and intercepting you takes priority, just depends on the spawning "orders" given).

An engine swap isn't difficult with the equipment and the like. But while there are a lot of industrial planets, not every planet would have the facilities. And you're a mercenary, not a loyalist. Say you're in Capellan territory shooting up Capellans, now you're at a Capellan planet. "I want a faster engine so I can shoot more of your friends and family."

Don't think it'd go over too well. Could say that about Capellans while in Davion territory and they might be happy about it depending on the year.

Mentioned in another thread very recently that Neutrino sensors are not actually a thing for battlemechs themselves as well as not really scientifically possible for a battlefield sensor suite on the ground to pick up specific sub-atomic particles regardless of whether there's line of sight or not.
The phrase is "Mech Powerup detected," not "Battlemech detected."
It's the power surge of the power necessary to create the initial fusion reaction of a fusion reactor that gets picked up.
Mw2: "Enemy powerup.... Detected."
Mw3: "Mech Powerup Detected."
MW4: (variations of mech power up detected, depending on one of 5 or 6 different computer voices).
I've yet to see a novel where mechs are detected without line of sight outside of mag-scan. Though Yen Lo Wang can see mechs behind itself, this is due to a 360 degree visual holographic display, meaning Kai Allard-Liao still has to look behind himself to see the enemy though he'll get blips...and it must still be in line of sight even if that LoS is behind him, so things can and do pop out from behind buildings as a surprise at relatively close range.


(This literally happens twice in the first Blood of Kerensky novel...though once at long range to Phelen Kell when he first encounters the infamous Timber Wolf, [they don't get detected until LONG after the pilots first see them rushing over a hill at them to kill the raiders Phelen Kell and his friend came out to go get, where Phelen's friend is about to offer these strange machines the salvage rights for the kill and only then after his friend is shot and it starts chasing after Phelen Kell that the mech finally show up on sensors doing the infamous "CAT... MAD...CAT...MAD...CAT", which the mech had already reached 500 meters and and Pehelen Kell had already tried to fire earlier than this for his Cyclops Eye Large Laser to have no effect against the 'Mech given the range (then closer to 700 meters). And once to the Yen Lo Wang when a mech pops out from behind a building at sub something within autocannon range [sub 270 meters given it's an AC/20], only then to show up as a sensor target after he sees it first hand. Now, this is even more interesting when considering heights such as the Yen Lo Wang being 11 meters tall without the decorative head-piece on top (smaller than several MWO lights, despite being considered tall for its weight, and comparing the fact that battlemechs are not as tall as many believe. Wolverine. Griffin. Shadowhawk and Shadowhawk and SHD MWO comparison. Which at these sizes, certain detection tales such as Neutrinos or "we can detect their reactors all the time" are even less likely to be true, considering how much lower the power requirements of these machines would be).

[Koniving]

In the Jag in a Big Al Intercept, you may notice a few things:
The Jag in the Thor does NOT detect any of the mechs before seeing them...even as they stand right above him.
The Jag in the Timber Wolf does not detect anyone, and is GENUINELY surprised by nearly running face-first into "Big Al". This is because Big Al did not power up he's been running the entire time.
"Lance Leader" needed input from Ground Commander that the mechs were coming, meaning the mechs could not detect the mechs coming over the hill.

The Jags that came over the hill did not detect Lance Leader even as Lance Leader targeted both Jags and zoomed in to get their identification.

The ambush in the opening of Mw3 could never happen if mechs could detect neutrino emissions of other mechs.

In the opening of Mw2 Ghost Bear's Legacy, the Kodiak is detected before he appears because of...
"Mech Powerup Detected." (It's very faint because of the haunting audible sound that is supposed to be the Kodiak's reactor activating)
"Base. Picking up heat sig." [Mech is powering up]. "Cannot get lock." (Can't get a position or a fix, no visual, just a powerup).


Mechwarrior 2 intro.
Sub 300 meters and behind a rock.
"Enemy detected" literally a second before it emerges dang near close enough to show off a handwritten message from the cockpit to alpha assault.
Bravo Cadet to Alpha Assault. "There's 3, 2 of them."
(Side note that's not commonly known, Alpha Assault's loadout is 2 ER PPCs and 2 Ultra AC/5s.. Not MGs. But the heat of firing 2 ER PPCs ensures he can't fire them for well over 10 seconds without putting himself in an even worse situation. The MW2 intro was played out in tabletop as a pre-planning stage. The missile that hit the Timber Wolf was supposed to be an Arrow IV.)

Mech Commander.
Mechs on the ground doing a sweep even with Dropship Look-Down Radar and commanders from planet's orbit, the first warning is "Movement" after the pilots are convinced there's nothing there.
"I've got something." This time it comes into visuals, but the detection is in the dead center of the street on the Look-Down Radar and the LDR didn't actually pick it up sooner.
Missiles followed by green large lasers (yes, BT LLs are generally emerald green and medium lasers are red), so the range is no more than 800 meters for the first exchange.
Hardcase drops before they identify it.

Mw III's cinematic as shown here is a different story than many of us seen, where a Thor keeps the same patrol schedule every day. A stolen Mad Dog and multiple Fire Flies set up an ambush, undetected, and watch as he walks passed...all while powered on.

Second version of MW 3's cinematic I already covered it's the Big Al Intercept.

MW4. Pilots do not know exactly what they're up against...despite the fact that the enemies are within LRM-range the instant the doors open... and they are targeted before they exit because our main characters JUST powered up. Bad guys? Completely undetected due to a lack of visual. Sadly... MW4's cinematic was something that really disgusted me. One, the woman just walked right into it, two there's a lot of mechs in that hangar, and three and this is the one that bugs me... as slow as those projectiles are, mechs attempt evasive maneuvers automatically. Yet not even an attempt was made it just walked right into them while she blabbed her mouth.
Mw4 continued: Mech approaches many mechs (a strange mix of IS and Clan mechs, too). Completely undetected until he fires upon them.

MW:LL
No story here to use as a demonstration.

MW5
Enemy not detected until UAV spots it.
Atlas not detected until point blank due to smoke (which is canonical from what can happen with sensors from William H. Keith Jr's novels).

Then in the previously shared video on the link for Panther Problems...
Jade Falcon Timber Wolf is completely oblivious to an enemy Panther standing out in the open and crushing a car under its foot, until shot by the Panther. It's noteworthy that the Timber Wolf then turns to FACE the Panther.. Range, less than 500 meters.
Seconds after it is destroyed, an Atlas K is in the smoke of the carnage up til then undetected. (You can tell it is an Atlas K by the green ER large lasers, twin rows of 10 tube racks on each ST (the LRM-20 of the Atlas K is specifically split this way). (I like the attention to detail here. The pilot seat is in the nose; as it is for all Atlases EXCEPT the D-DC).

Edited by Koniving, 20 December 2019 - 11:25 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Drenzul, on 20 December 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

Its not a BAD game, but it feels really rushed/half finished.

The maps themselves are quite good, but the enemies are horrible.
AI-wise and level design wise. Quite often they will just decide to
randomly swarm you from everywhere on the map at once.

The AI barely works, light mechs stand in front of assault mechs and
try to go toe to toe. LRM mechs charge in and stand there uselessly,
sniper mechs core their buddies from behind.

Spawn mechanics are horrible. Don't drop a full lance literally right on
the players head with no warning.

The development side to both your character and the others in the game
and the acquirement of new mechs are boring and not something
the player can control. Random hero mechs popping up on the map
is not a great mechanic. So many better ways to do this.

The absolutely gimped customisation options basically your mechs have
a fairly fixed loadout, not much choice. Can't even modify engine sizes.

And the UI.... omg, it makes me thing of this:
https://assets.amuni...224005056a9545d

Sensor mechanics vary between strange and nonexistent as well. Often
i'm looking at a flyer but can't actually target it....

This feels more like Mechwarrior - Arcade than a really mechwarrior game
as well.

Everything in the game is generated by an AI, what do you expect? the enemies and maps come from a pool and are created randomly according to algorithms, everything you want is only possible with hand-made maps and hand-placed and prepared units and scripts like all old MW titles.
Many wanted procedural terrain, now you have to live with the disadvantages of them.And PGi had hard worked to hold the deadline , so many is unfinished , not polished and other its a part for learn with timeand the "AI" never learn , its only scripted Behavior and better as in the Most other Games .

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 22 December 2019 - 03:39 AM.