313 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Khalcruth, on 31 December 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

Thanks for the support Yeonne and Vxheous.

Unfortunately, Yeonne spotted my error - I DID mistype the first time, and I DO think that clan lights and mediums such as the Piranha, Huntsman, and Vapor Eagle are ridiculously superior to anything the IS has at the same tonnages. It's likely we're just going to have to disagree on that one, you're just never going to convince me any Locust or Flea loadout can hold a candle to a Piranha, for example.

Well, in that case, I would politely disagree.

For Lights, I think the Piranha is extremely good at ganking things...but it is literally the most fragile 'Mech in the game and that hurts it even in good hands because incidental damage stacks up on it rapidly. This is exacerbated by Clans not having comparable light-weight trading weapons to the IS ML and MPL; they all have too much duration or too little range or a combination of both. Only cSPL with cERuL is somewhat comparable, but only the Piranha has the hardpoints to make that work, taking us back to the drawbacks of the Piranha. The JVN-11A, WLF-2, and FLE-17 are far and away superior choices for aggressive poking due to better weapons for the task at that weight and superior survivability attributes (higher armor and/or agility). A PIR-2 has to get under 200 meters to deal 40 damage using cSPL and cERuL and under 150 meters to do 50 points with HSL and cERuL. The JVN-11A can do 35 from 310 meters, the WLF-2 can do 36 from 253 meters, and the FLE-17 can do 28.5 from 230 meters (or 35 from 310 if you want to eat ghost, but why?).

The Incubus with 5 cMPL or 6 cERML is, I guess, OK at poking, but the heat means it's not that great at the point in the match where you would typically drop Light. And none of the Clan SRM bomber Lights are really good. The JVN-10P with 6 SRM2 is superior to any other Light SRM carrier.

For Mediums, Vapor Eagle and Huntsman are certainly strong and versatile, but can get out-classed when min-maxing. The BJ-3 can trade at-range better thanks to superior mounts and hilariously faster ERPPC velocity; even at mid-range, swapping into HPPCs the BJ-3 will go toe-to-toe against both with ease. The Dervish hero is a direct competitor to the Huntsman hero for SRM bombing, with tangibly superior SRM spread. The direct IS answer to ATM spam would be a Wolverine using MASC and MRMs. It's not the same, no, but the farm is just as high and it has no min range weakness. The IS also have the Assassin, more than a match for the Arctic Wolf SRM bomber, and the Vulcan 5T (and UZL-6P)...which has no Clan analogue. There's also the Bushwacker, notoriously hard to kill quickly and with enough firepower to chew up the smaller Clan HP pools and trade tonnage favorably.

TL;DR: IS are extremely good at aggressive poke, and aggressive poke is extremely versatile. Clans have MGs and extreme alphas and that's about it.

[Prototelis]

That post had nothing to do with who you are willing to accept into the unit lol.

(lol, he deleted his post)

Edited by Prototelis, 31 December 2019 - 04:38 PM.

[Extra Guac]

Vxheous, on 31 December 2019 - 12:43 PM, said:

Flea vs Piranha, in pure backstab no, but in sheer mobility, yes. Flea with 2 med pulse 5 small laser will outlast the Piranha over time (not head to head per se) since the Flea and masc dance peek poke, and the piranha cant. In terms of Vapor Eagle vs any IS medium I agree, but that's where the IS +10 tonnage deck comes along. Clan going 90/90 in assaults (Mad Cat MK II/Blood Asp) vs IS going 90/90 in Assaults (Dual Sleipnir), puts Clan at 55 Veagle, 20 Piranha to finish the 255, vs the potential of IS going 65 Roughneck/Thunderbolt/Jagermech/(60) Quickdraw IV4, and dropping to 20 flea, or splitting that last 75 tons into Vulcan+ Wolfhound, which taken together is stronger than Veagle + piranha.

Clan lights outside of 20 ton piranhas are significantly weaker than IS counterparts, to the point where you don't see any of them used for any competitive play (outside of an Incubus 4 for mid long range laser poking). There's no reason to play a Mist Lynx or Arctic cheetah over a Piranha, Kit Fox/Adder/Cougars are slow and get rekted by Wolfhound/Vulcans/(even Urbie K9)

This is the problem with clan lights outside of piranhas being crap (I blame the CSPL nerf down to 4 damage for the gutting of the Arctic Cheetah, prior to that, it was the 30 ton clan analog to MPL Firestarter/Wolfhounds). This reminds me back before the arctic cheetah came out, where Clans only had the choice of Mist Lynx (pre MG arms)/Kit Fox/Adder to deal with IS Wolfhound/Firestarters that went 30-40 kph faster. At least on those days, the power of Timberwolf/Stormcrow made it where Clans didn't need to bring lights per se.

Overall the balance is pretty much fine. But if you compare these 2 dropdecks, I think clans have a clear advantage:

Clan: BAS/BAS/Veagle/PIR

IS: CP-S/CP-S/Vulcan/Wolfhound

I put my money on the clan side because waves 1-3 are a mismatch. The CP-S has great mobility, but it lacks the survival quirks of most IS mechs.

The BAS is an absolute monster with an XL360 engine, ECM, significantly more firepower & range, more heat sinks, & higher mounts than the CP-S (higher mounts than anything, really). Assuming it's a mid-range fight, the IS side is going to have a rough time unless they bring some 100-tonners on wave 1.

Edited by Deepfryer, 31 December 2019 - 05:22 PM.

[Vxheous]

Deepfryer, on 31 December 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

Overall the balance is pretty much fine. But if you compare these 2 dropdecks, I think clans have a clear advantage:

Clan: BAS/BAS/Veagle/PIR

IS: CP-S/CP-S/Vulcan/Wolfhound

I put my money on the clan side because waves 1-3 are a mismatch. The CP-S has great mobility, but it lacks the survival quirks of most IS mechs.

The BAS is an absolute monster with an XL360 engine, ECM, significantly more firepower & range, more heat sinks, & higher mounts than the CP-S (higher mounts than anything, really). Assuming it's a mid-range fight, the IS side is going to have a rough time unless they bring some 100-tonners on wave 1.

Nah, the Blood Asp vs Cyclops is basically a wash, the firepower is only slightly higher on the Blood Asp (3xCUAC5 1xCUAC10 vs 4xUAC5, or.....1xCUAC20 2xCUAC10 vs 2xUAC5 2xUAC10) but IS ballistics are more pinpoint due to lesser shells, and Blood Asp has MASSIVE torsos (every smart player should always shoot Right Torso of Blood Asps, unless it's a CERLL Blood Asp, where you shoot Left torso) Also, you can go 65 Tons as 3rd wave IS, which will beat 55 ton Veagle, leaving....fleas vs piranha.

Even if you leave the deck as Vulcan/Wolfhound (which is undertonned, it would be more like double Vulcan, or even MPL crab + Wolfhound) that's enough to fight Veagle/piranha, easy. Only reason to run Vulcan/Wolfhound, or Assassin/Wolfhound would be to upton one of the Cyclops to a Annihilator.

Or....you could even go Bushwacker/Urbie K9, should also be decent against Veagle/piranha. The point is IS has many many different choices/combos for 3rd/4th wave while double Assault in 1st/2nd, while Clans doing double Assaults in 1st/2nd end up with lesser overall choices that end up being strong due to lack of strong clan lights.

Edited by Vxheous, 31 December 2019 - 05:37 PM.

[Extra Guac]

I trust your judgement, and in high-level comp play I'm sure the BAS right torso gets picked off a lot faster than in a QP or FP match with, you know, "normal" players

For the CP-S I had the 4UAC5 build in mind. 2UAC10 & 2UAC5 is painfully slow imo... it's basically an unquirked ANH-2A.

[Vxheous]

Deepfryer, on 31 December 2019 - 05:39 PM, said:

I trust your judgement, and in high-level comp play I'm sure the BAS right torso gets picked off a lot faster than in a QP or FP match with, you know, "normal" players

For the CP-S I had the 4UAC5 build in mind. 2UAC10 & 2UAC5 is painfully slow imo... it's basically an unquirked ANH-2A.

Yeah, the 2-5, 2-10 build doesn't carry enough ammo for FP. Even normal players that play FP and have to fight Blood Asp waves on a regular basis should learn to always shoot Right torso of Blood Asps, it's just part of knowing your opposition's weakness. It's not like it's hard to shoot either, those Gun mount torsos are MASSIVE from pretty much any angle.

[Nightbird]

Khalcruth, on 31 December 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

Thanks for the support Yeonne and Vxheous.

Unfortunately, Yeonne spotted my error - I DID mistype the first time, and I DO think that clan lights and mediums such as the Piranha, Huntsman, and Vapor Eagle are ridiculously superior to anything the IS has at the same tonnages. It's likely we're just going to have to disagree on that one, you're just never going to convince me any Locust or Flea loadout can hold a candle to a Piranha, for example.

This misunderstanding comes from never piloting Clan mechs. There is nothing on Clan side that matches 7 SPL Flea or 5MPL Vulcan. The Piranha can back stab, but the flea can easily kill laser and dakka mechs from the front as well as the back, and Vulcan's ability to farm damage in later waves is unmatched.

[Extra Guac]

Nightbird, on 31 December 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

This misunderstanding comes from never piloting Clan mechs. There is nothing on Clan side that matches 7 SPL Flea or 5MPL Vulcan. The Piranha can back stab, but the flea can easily kill laser and dakka mechs from the front as well as the back, and Vulcan's ability to farm damage in later waves is unmatched.

The superior loadouts of energy Piranhas greatly outweigh the MASC of the FLE-17.

Clans also have the Arctic Wolf, which is capable of farming much more damage than a Vulcan at 40 tons.

Notice how the FLE-17 is in Solaris D6, whereas the PIR-2 is in D3.

And the ACW-1 is in D1, but the VL-5T is a lowly D5 mech.

The Solaris divisions may not be perfect, but they are based on real stats... the relative performance of each mech, etc.

[Scout Derek]

Deepfryer, on 31 December 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

The superior loadouts of energy Piranhas greatly outweigh the MASC of the FLE-17.

Clans also have the Arctic Wolf, which is capable of farming much more damage than a Vulcan at 40 tons.

Notice how the FLE-17 is in Solaris D6, whereas the PIR-2 is in D3.

And the ACW-1 is in D1, but the VL-5T is a lowly D5 mech.

The Solaris divisions may not be perfect, but they are based on real stats... the relative performance of each mech, etc.

Imagine trying to use 1v1/2v2 balancing made by PGI to justify how the Arctic Wolf is better than the Vulcan in team play of 8-12 people on either side.

[Extra Guac]

Scout Derek, on 31 December 2019 - 11:15 PM, said:

Imagine trying to use 1v1/2v2 balancing made by PGI to justify how the Arctic Wolf is better than the Vulcan in team play of 8-12 people on either side.

He's the one who specifically mentioned damage farming as the reason for the Vulcan being the superior mech... lol

Please, explain what specific gameplay factors would make the ACW-1 such a superior mech in 1v1, but would not apply at all to later waves of FP?

[Prototelis]

Have you ever tried to fight a vulcan 1v1 in an ACW.

ACW usually loses.

The ACW is in a higher division because of it's burst damage, it doesn't get played up there anyways. They could knock it down to 4 and it still wouldn't get played that often.

[cougurt]

Deepfryer, on 31 December 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

The superior loadouts of energy Piranhas greatly outweigh the MASC of the FLE-17.

only if we're talking about a 1v1 between a piranha and flea, and even then i'm thinking it would still be pretty close.

Deepfryer, on 31 December 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

Clans also have the Arctic Wolf, which is capable of farming much more damage than a Vulcan at 40 tons.

the arctic wolf is basically in the same boat as the piranha. good for backstabbing, but its squishiness and lack of range really limit when and how you can engage. a vulcan can repeatedly poke from relative safety, continually racking up damage as long as it stays alive (something it does very well).

Deepfryer, on 31 December 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

Notice how the FLE-17 is in Solaris D6, whereas the PIR-2 is in D3.

And the ACW-1 is in D1, but the VL-5T is a lowly D5 mech.

The Solaris divisions may not be perfect, but they are based on real stats... the relative performance of each mech, etc.

there are plenty of top tier mechs that i wouldn't place in div 1 solaris. 1v1 performance is not indicative of how good a mech is.

[justcallme A S H]

The ACW is garbage to a Vulcan... How is anyone even trying to compare the two???

[Novakaine]

Prototelis, on 31 December 2019 - 03:48 PM, said:

That post had nothing to do with who you are willing to accept into the unit lol.

(lol, he deleted his post)

Yes I did I saw my mistake.

[Extra Guac]

Prototelis, on 31 December 2019 - 11:52 PM, said:

Have you ever tried to fight a vulcan 1v1 in an ACW.

ACW usually loses.

The ACW is in a higher division because of it's burst damage, it doesn't get played up there anyways. They could knock it down to 4 and it still wouldn't get played that often.

It's the combination of burst damage & much higher sustained DPS.

Grimmechs lists the ACW-1 as an A-Tier short range mech, so I must not be the only one who considers it better than garbage. Edit: I just realized they've added the VL-5T and it's also A-Tier. So that pretty much settles it.

It reached D1 by winning Solaris matches over multiple seasons & always outperforming Cicadas, Assassins, Wolfhounds, etc. I expect the Vulcan to eventually reach D3 along with the better Wolfhounds, but I don't see it reaching D2 or D1. It takes too long to kill the high-tier assault mechs with a 5 MPL loadout.

Edited by Deepfryer, 01 January 2020 - 09:57 AM.

[Vxheous]

Deepfryer, on 01 January 2020 - 09:41 AM, said:

It's the combination of burst damage & much higher sustained DPS.

Grimmechs lists the ACW-1 as an A-Tier short range mech, so I must not be the only one who considers it better than garbage. Edit: I just realized they've added the VL-5T and it's also A-Tier. So that pretty much settles it.

It reached D1 by winning Solaris matches over multiple seasons & always outperforming Cicadas, Assassins, Wolfhounds, etc. I expect the Vulcan to eventually reach D3 along with the better Wolfhounds, but I don't see it reaching D2 or D1. It takes too long to kill the high-tier assault mechs with a 5 MPL loadout.

The thing with Arctic Wolf and SRM Assassins (to an extent, Assassin has better hitboxes than Arctic Wolf) is that they're meant to dive bomb bigger mechs. When those same mechs come across MPL lights and pseudo lights (Vulcan) the MPL mechs will often tear off the SRM bomber mech legs faster than a SRM bomber can kill said MPL light.

I can tell you that my threat meter goes off higher when I see Vulcans Wolfhounds and Assassins running at me as opposed to seeing the Arctic Wolf

Edited by Vxheous, 01 January 2020 - 10:43 AM.

[Prototelis]

ACW isn't in a high division because it won lots of matches lol. Like I said, they could have started it in 4 and it'd get smashed. Even in Season 1.

[Brauer]

Deepfryer, on 01 January 2020 - 09:41 AM, said:

It's the combination of burst damage & much higher sustained DPS.

Grimmechs lists the ACW-1 as an A-Tier short range mech, so I must not be the only one who considers it better than garbage. Edit: I just realized they've added the VL-5T and it's also A-Tier. So that pretty much settles it.

It reached D1 by winning Solaris matches over multiple seasons & always outperforming Cicadas, Assassins, Wolfhounds, etc. I expect the Vulcan to eventually reach D3 along with the better Wolfhounds, but I don't see it reaching D2 or D1. It takes too long to kill the high-tier assault mechs with a 5 MPL loadout.

ACW was in D1 from the start, see https://amp.reddit.c..._grabs_popcorn/

There is a pretty strong reason the Vulcan was taken far more than the ACW in Worlds. It is a phenomenal skirmisher. The ACW is a strong brawler, but it is much more one note.

Edited by Brauer, 01 January 2020 - 01:49 PM.

[Extra Guac]

Brauer, on 01 January 2020 - 01:48 PM, said:

ACW was in D1 from the start, see https://amp.reddit.c..._grabs_popcorn/

There is a pretty strong reason the Vulcan was taken far more than the ACW in Worlds. It is a phenomenal skirmisher. The ACW is a strong brawler, but it is much more one note.

Agreed.

The point is that it's still a great FP mech. Anyone who claims that it's a weak mech is simply incorrect, as evidenced by the Grimmechs tier rating.

Ok maybe it was always in D1. But it certainly would've been downgraded by now if it wasn't competitive. They've downgraded plenty of mechs that were originally placed too high.

Edited by Deepfryer, 01 January 2020 - 02:18 PM.

[Prototelis]

There are plenty of mechs in all divisions that are weak and hardly ever played.