22 replies to this topic

[Racerxintegra2k]

The AI really falls apart in higher difficulty missions. They simply are not effective at helping. I'm doing 2000+ damage and they can barely scratch together 400 dmg in an assault mech. Its like 3-4 lances of heavies and assaults with tanks and Choppers and i get 1 lance of Heavies and Assaults and my 40+ rated team mates cant fire more than 2 weapons at a time. This is horrible, might even be completely unplayable.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Try giving them a loadout that doesn't have different optimal ranges. I had a similar problem until I went with long range throughout. The AI still don't rack up the damage numbers but at least they don't get shot to hell and they manage to kill the tanks and VTOLs if I don't give them any commands.

[Xaat Xuun]

often wonder how they manage heat .. it's like they are waiting for the heat gauge to go all the way back down before firing again

[Koniving]

Xaat Xuun, on 24 December 2019 - 08:32 PM, said:

often wonder how they manage heat .. it's like they are waiting for the heat gauge to go all the way back down before firing again

I genuinely don't believe they track heat. I'd be genuinely surprised if they do. Its more of a timing restriction more likely.

Like turrets in MWO.
Turrets in MWO don't track heat in any way shape or form. They cannot overheat under any circumstances.

I know this is the case for vehicles and turrets in MW5. This is why I believe it's also the case for AI mechs.

If anyone has ever seen the enemy AI overheat, let me know. But I doubt anyone ever has.

[Xaat Xuun]

well hell, no wonder when I'm in a panic situation, they feel like they're not doing anything.

I know those mechs they are using and the rate they are firing them, shouldn't be getting hot, so it's a timed thing eh

[Kaeb Odellas]

Koniving, on 24 December 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

I genuinely don't believe they track heat. I'd be genuinely surprised if they do. Its more of a timing restriction more likely.

Like turrets in MWO.
Turrets in MWO don't track heat in any way shape or form. They cannot overheat under any circumstances.

I know this is the case for vehicles and turrets in MW5. This is why I believe it's also the case for AI mechs.

If anyone has ever seen the enemy AI overheat, let me know. But I doubt anyone ever has.

I've seen enemy AI shut down on their own. It's exceedingly rare, but it happens.

[Appogee]

Kaeb Odellas, on 25 December 2019 - 12:16 AM, said:

I've seen enemy AI shut down on their own. It's exceedingly rare, but it happens.

Me too.

[Ilfi]

AI does well in Stalker 3Fs that boat MLs and SRMs. It's a good Mech (IMO the best Mech), but the more relevant point is that Medium Lasers are simple enough for them to actually be credit to team: no travel time, low heat, good enough range.

Give them baby weapons that don't have "hard" things like projectile speed or lock-on.

[Dee Eight]

They do well with heat efficient mechs. An SRM10 / quad medium laser quickdraw should get around 700+ usually. You also have to match the pilot skills to the mech loadouts.

[Flyby215]

I understand your complaint, and honestly I feel some mechs in MW5 are even more useless than certain mechs in MWO. I can put my lancemates in 95 ton Banshees and they'll put up 200 damage, put them in a 50 ton Hunchie and 500-700 isn't too much of a stretch.

Personally I find that many smaller weapons are superior to few large weapons for the AI. Medium Laser/SRM combinations with 2.2 cooling or better almost always put up good numbers (500-1000). ML/SRM Stalker or Battlemaster are dmg output beasts, but usually end up dead or nearly dead and need constant babysitting.

One exception to the rule: I had been driving a DualGuass/ERPPC King Crab until I found something I liked better. One mission I gave my King Crab to an AI lancemate by mistake (I would never EVER give the AI valuable Guass Rifles on purpose). Lo and behold, AI made a very impressive showing, competing with my own dmg/kills (around 2000 for that particular match).

[Sabertooth1966]

I just did a lvl 70 rank 9 asasonation mission. Used a Battlemaster, cyclops Q, Victor and quick draw. It wasn't easy but killed the target and most of the support. Managed to even make a profit on it. I ran the Battlemaster, did around 1.5K damage AI's all did 500 to around 680. I tend to be a get in their face kind of player though so...

Edited by Sabertooth1966, 25 December 2019 - 05:50 PM.

[Koniving]

Kaeb Odellas, on 25 December 2019 - 12:16 AM, said:

I've seen enemy AI shut down on their own. It's exceedingly rare, but it happens.

While firing and unrelated to anything script related?
It'd be very pleasant news if true. (MWO turrets understandably never shut down).
It'd be even less work for me to have to do.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Flyby215, on 25 December 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:

I understand your complaint, and honestly I feel some mechs in MW5 are even more useless than certain mechs in MWO. I can put my lancemates in 95 ton Banshees and they'll put up 200 damage, put them in a 50 ton Hunchie and 500-700 isn't too much of a stretch.

Personally I find that many smaller weapons are superior to few large weapons for the AI. Medium Laser/SRM combinations with 2.2 cooling or better almost always put up good numbers (500-1000). ML/SRM Stalker or Battlemaster are dmg output beasts, but usually end up dead or nearly dead and need constant babysitting.

One exception to the rule: I had been driving a DualGuass/ERPPC King Crab until I found something I liked better. One mission I gave my King Crab to an AI lancemate by mistake (I would never EVER give the AI valuable Guass Rifles on purpose). Lo and behold, AI made a very impressive showing, competing with my own dmg/kills (around 2000 for that particular match).

The skill level of the AI lance-mates along with the loadouts also matter quite a lot. I have several, nearly maxed out 57 rated lance-mates and having long-range loadouts throughout has helped me a lot.

[Nesutizale]

Xaat Xuun, on 24 December 2019 - 08:32 PM, said:

often wonder how they manage heat .. it's like they are waiting for the heat gauge to go all the way back down before firing again

That is actualy a good question. My impression is also that they don't use the mech to its full extend because they stay to much on the save side of the heat scale.

My guess is that they are programmed that way because they can't recognize a situation of beeing a long battle or a short one. In a shorter battle they could just fire away while in a longer engagment it makes sense to hold your fire back a little.

Also how does the heat system work in this game anyway? I find the "you have a heat of 2.0" kinda saying nothing to me. Mostly I go by testting the mechs to see if they "feel" right. I kinda miss a more detailed way of knowing how much heat a mech build up in a given situation.
Do you remember the old mechconstruction tool for TT where you would get a curve for how much heat your mech can dissapate each turn and you can then select groups of weapons to see when you would go over the curve?
That would actualy be helpfull.

Also, does the AI make use of the firing groups right? Have you experimented with it to see if they would fire more if you chainfire for example or have several smaller weapongroups?

[DrxAbstract]

Koniving, on 24 December 2019 - 08:48 PM, said:

I genuinely don't believe they track heat. I'd be genuinely surprised if they do. Its more of a timing restriction more likely.

Like turrets in MWO.
Turrets in MWO don't track heat in any way shape or form. They cannot overheat under any circumstances.

I know this is the case for vehicles and turrets in MW5. This is why I believe it's also the case for AI mechs.

If anyone has ever seen the enemy AI overheat, let me know. But I doubt anyone ever has.

I have seen them OH and shutdown, primarily in Battlemasters and Banshees--Your team AI, and the enemy AI, are restricted by heat generation just like you and I.

Finally got my hands on a Butter Bee to compliment the Golden Boy SRM brawler one of my AI is using. Loaded it with 4 ML and 4xSRM6-Artemis launchers and ran it for a couple missions... Damage was abysmal until I ditched the Medium Lasers and gave it more Heatsinks on a hunch. Lo and behold, its damage sky rocketed. As far as I've seen, the AI handles weapons with different effective ranges quite well, in the sense it will use them when the opportunity presents itself. However, as mixed-ranged builds always have, it will suffer from jack-of-all-trades syndrome.

Weapons I would not recommend using on AI-assigned Mechs are Burst-fire ACs, LRMs, Machine Guns, Small Lasers/Small Pulse Lasers or Flamers. ESPECIALLY Machine Guns and Flamers. Because your AI will dive headfirst into every pack of enemies and bad situation it can... And usually get itself exploded in the process.

Weapons I would highly suggest using are SRMs(Preferably w/ Artemis) and LB-10X Cluster/Slug, or an AC10/20 Single-shot if you don't have LB-10Xs yet, and Gauss Rifles. Medium/Large Lasers are passable, as are PPCs, but Medium/Large Pulse seems to do better for them... And lots of Heat Sinks... LOTS More than you personally would use on the build. The Stalker 3F with 4xSRM6-As is a devastating Mech in the hands of an AI teammate. Once you get into the 3040's you'll start finding "rare" weapons-a-plenty in Hubs. Gauss, Pulse Lasers and Artemis SRMs become a common commodity.

Edited by Jeffrey Dahmer The People Nommer, 26 December 2019 - 08:54 AM.

[Racerxintegra2k]

Jeffrey Dahmer The People Nommer, on 26 December 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

I have seen them OH and shutdown, primarily in Battlemasters and Banshees--Your team AI, and the enemy AI, are restricted by heat generation just like you and I.

Finally got my hands on a Butter Bee to compliment the Golden Boy SRM brawler one of my AI is using. Loaded it with 4 ML and 4xSRM6-Artemis launchers and ran it for a couple missions... Damage was abysmal until I ditched the Medium Lasers and gave it more Heatsinks on a hunch. Lo and behold, its damage sky rocketed. As far as I've seen, the AI handles weapons with different effective ranges quite well, in the sense it will use them when the opportunity presents itself. However, as mixed-ranged builds always have, it will suffer from jack-of-all-trades syndrome.

Weapons I would not recommend using on AI-assigned Mechs are Burst-fire ACs, LRMs, Machine Guns, Small Lasers/Small Pulse Lasers or Flamers. ESPECIALLY Machine Guns and Flamers. Because your AI will dive headfirst into every pack of enemies and bad situation it can... And usually get itself exploded in the process.

Weapons I would highly suggest using are SRMs(Preferably w/ Artemis) and LB-10X Cluster/Slug, or an AC10/20 Single-shot if you don't have LB-10Xs yet, and Gauss Rifles. Medium/Large Lasers are passable, as are PPCs, but Medium/Large Pulse seems to do better for them... And lots of Heat Sinks... LOTS More than you personally would use on the build. The Stalker 3F with 4xSRM6-As is a devastating Mech in the hands of an AI teammate. Once you get into the 3040's you'll start finding "rare" weapons-a-plenty in Hubs. Gauss, Pulse Lasers and Artemis SRMs become a common commodity.

Speaking of the year, how do you figure out what year you are in game ?

[Hawk_eye]

Racerxintegra2k, on 26 December 2019 - 12:45 PM, said:

Speaking of the year, how do you figure out what year you are in game ?

On the Starmap, bottom right, I think, is the date.

[Koniving]

Jeffrey Dahmer The People Nommer, on 26 December 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

Weapons I would not recommend using on AI-assigned Mechs are Burst-fire ACs, LRMs, Machine Guns, Small Lasers/Small Pulse Lasers or Flamers. ESPECIALLY Machine Guns and Flamers. Because your AI will dive headfirst into every pack of enemies and bad situation it can... And usually get itself exploded in the process.

One of the prime examples of why my mod's gonna be pretty sweet for those that want it.
The base AI determines what it does by loadout range and prioritizes what it has more of (i.e. 2 MGs and 1 ML, it's gonna want to get up in someone's face because there's more MGs than ML).

Before I continue, we all know the 90 meter range gimmick on MGs, right?

Edit: had to fix the formatting.
This is a vehicle/mech MG used by infantry against infantry and low barrier armor rating vehicles (such as the J. Edgar Hovercraft and the Warrior VTOL).
Item:Machine Gun, Support^[2]
Equipment Rating: C/C-C-C/E
Armor Piercing/Base Damage: 5B/5B
Range: 45/100/250/625 meters
Shots: 100
Cost/Reload: 1750/50
Affiliation: -
Mass/Reload: 44kg/5kg
Notes: Burst 20; Recoil -2; Crew 2

And again note that ranges are just expected accurate ranges under combat conditions (where-as the AC's true range is around 2,000 meters)

Support Pulse Laser is a small pulse laser being used by infantry as a gun-emplacement against other infantry and lighter BAR vehicles.
Item: Support Pulse Laser^[3]
Equipment Rating: E/D-F-D/E
Armor Piercing/Base Damage: 5E/5B
Range: 85/310/725/1500 meters
Shots: 7 Power Points per volley
Cost/Reload: 16000/*
Affiliation: -
Mass/Reload: 150kg/*
Notes: Burst 15; Recoil 0; Crew: 2

Against a BAR of 8 or higher, i.e. heavier VTOLs, proper tanks, battlemechs... these ranges cut down to 90-to-120 meters effective range and their effects kinda degrade with distance.

Now what if MGs/Lasers were like this? Effective to much longer ranges but only against light targets (which would be much more important after infantry is implemented whether by PGI or by mods), while the ranges we're used to are the "against hard target" ranges.

So, AI using these could use them at much longer ranges without penalty against specific targets, and be told to opt-out of using them unless it has to against harder targets, and in theory I'd only have to change or modify one or two nodes in regards to how it chooses ideal range for those weapons so that it'll use "support weapons" as HBS BT called them. The change likely would be akin to "Shoot when targets are within range to be damaged by them, but never deliberately seek to get that close unless this is all the mech has."

Edited by Koniving, 26 December 2019 - 02:02 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

I'd rather have AI pilots stay at optimal range of their most damage-oriented weapon than voting on how many close-ranged weapons it has vs long range. This way, the close range weapons can be used against targets that get close-and-personal, like the light mechs and Cicadas.

I wouldn't want something like a Black Knight with 3 PPCs and ML/SMLs or an Orion Protector with Gauss + PPC and some ML+SRMs to run close to the enemies instead of letting a few them come close to us.

[DrxAbstract]

FRAGTAST1C, on 26 December 2019 - 07:36 PM, said:

I'd rather have AI pilots stay at optimal range of their most damage-oriented weapon than voting on how many close-ranged weapons it has vs long range. This way, the close range weapons can be used against targets that get close-and-personal, like the light mechs and Cicadas.

I wouldn't want something like a Black Knight with 3 PPCs and ML/SMLs or an Orion Protector with Gauss + PPC and some ML+SRMs to run close to the enemies instead of letting a few them come close to us.

Back when I had the Arrow assigned to my AIs it had the usual 6 Mguns and 2 Mls, but a PPC instead of a LL and it seemed to do just fine maintaining an appropriate distance for effective damage output. Since then, however, I've found mixed-range builds work best when it's Large Lasers paired with SRMs because unlike LRMs/ACs, the AI is more reliably positioning themselves effectively. I rarely see my Quickdraw IV using its SRMs, favoring its dual LB10s quite heavily.