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Ai Improvement


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#1 Oraeon1224

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Posted 01 January 2020 - 07:16 PM

My biggest disappointment in MW5 (which I still find fun) is the AI. All mechs regardless of loadout try to race forward and engage in a circle of death. While this was fine for classic MechWarrior I wish things had moved forward a bit. I wish the game had 3 type of AI.

Short range: AI for short range predominant mechs. Would close in and circle (current AI)
Medium range: AI would try to use cover and movement to stay out of short range. Most AI in the game
Long range: AI would jump and move to remain at long range, for mechs with PPC, AC2, LRM etc...

For mechs with mixed loadouts the AI cold be randomly selected. Also would need a switcher if ammo ran out or the weapon at the appropriate range was lost (PPC lost converts to medium range)

From the player standpoint I would like to be able to apply an AI setup to each lance mate and have commands to change their engagement class.

Finally Falcon 4.0 had several AI controls in place for some sort of strategy. I wish this game had pincher, stay on wing, an similar controls for the AI.

#2 Fippy Darkpaw

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 12:22 AM

Are you talking about lancemate AI, or enemy AI? Because I'm not sure I agree that there's only one AI strategy. Lots of mechs stand back and fire from range, especially the heavier ones. I've also had mechs run away and hide (Cicadas, Spiders, and the like), and I've had Riflemen and Jagermechs actively run backwards while firing, forcing me to chase when I don't have the range to engage them from long distance.

As far as lancemate AI, I find it frustrating that a lot of mechs I've built to tank simply won't close distance and sit back firing their longest range weapon. It's pretty frustrating watching your Atlas with the SRMs standing out of SRM range firing only his Autocannon. Personally, I find that the only way to get your lancemates in to tank at higher weights is to use waypoints to force them forward.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

#3 Vellron2005

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 01:03 AM

The ONLY thing I truly hope they change / fix when it comes to A.I. is to prevent lancemates from walking / shooting through buildings they are supposed to be defending.

Is that too much to ask?

Right now, they are more hazardous to the defending structures than the enemy..

#4 cszolee79

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 02:53 AM

Friendly fire.
On many missions my AI drones are more dangerous to each other than the enemy.

Number 4 (the "rearguard) loves to shoot the rest in the back.
I've lost Number 2 and 3 several times when Number 4 alpha striked them in the back with an Atlas.

90% of the back armor damage is due to friendly fire.

#5 Five by Five

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 07:41 AM

This seems to be the best MechWarrior AI I've seen in the series. I've actually seen mechs retreat. That's a first for MW. I've seen LRM support mechs try to stay at range and lights with mg's circle strafe. Best AI around, oh no, not even close. Best AI in a MW series, probably so.

#6 OmniFail

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 05:38 PM

F3 is hard.

#7 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 06:55 PM

You have to micro-manage a lot during missions. If you leave them on their own, then things don't necessarily sail smoothly. I suggest using "Voice Attack"

https://mwomercs.com...attack-for-mw5/

#8 Necroconvict

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 12:39 AM

Better options for people without mics, or people that can't talk have to be out there than voice attack. Voice attack is good in it's own right though. Then people also live with family, or roommates, or have neighbors...Could wake a lot of people up if you start barking commands excitedly. It would be terrible to explain Voice Attacks as a reason for a divorce!

#9 Vellron2005

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 03:38 AM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 02 January 2020 - 06:55 PM, said:

You have to micro-manage a lot during missions. If you leave them on their own, then things don't necessarily sail smoothly. I suggest using "Voice Attack"

https://mwomercs.com...attack-for-mw5/


Voice attack sounds great, but as I mostly play while my Fiancee is sleeping behind me, it would be counter-productive to her sleep cycle :D

Would be great to have such a feature in-game though..

#10 Koniving

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 03:49 AM

View PostFippy Darkpaw, on 02 January 2020 - 12:22 AM, said:

Are you talking about lancemate AI, or enemy AI? Because I'm not sure I agree that there's only one AI strategy. Lots of mechs stand back and fire from range, especially the heavier ones. I've also had mechs run away and hide (Cicadas, Spiders, and the like), and I've had Riflemen and Jagermechs actively run backwards while firing, forcing me to chase when I don't have the range to engage them from long distance.

There's a total of 11 combat strategies, though some are just variations of others such as "ranged Circle" "Circle" and "Tank Circle" (referring to tanky mechs) and "brute force tank circle"
Posted Image

There are an additional two for lancemates (related to formation and engaging while moving to a set destination).

Yes, they can retreat though a few things will basically override that; one of them being proximity (if you're too close they won't run away).

#11 Koniving

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 03:52 AM

The Jagermech/Riflemech in your example are simply using MechCombat Ranged.
Some assault mechs like the Atlas K will also use this strategy, though Atlas K is capable of switching between it and a couple of others.

Mechs choose their strategies based on loadout and a couple of other minor factors.

This said, you can pretty much derp them out. For example if they're doing a circle of death, move so that there's a hill in their circle and they'll derp out to a crawl letting you nail in nasty shots and from there rush them. They'll be locked at a slow rate of speed as they try to figure out what to do since they can't get the circle going again.

#12 Mystere

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 04:30 AM

View PostNecroconvict, on 03 January 2020 - 12:39 AM, said:

Better options for people without mics, or people that can't talk have to be out there than voice attack. Voice attack is good in it's own right though. Then people also live with family, or roommates, or have neighbors...Could wake a lot of people up if you start barking commands excitedly. It would be terrible to explain Voice Attacks as a reason for a divorce!


If you have an iPad, get TouchControl and create your own command/control panel. As a bonus, you can even use voice control when combat gets hairy.

Edited by Mystere, 03 January 2020 - 04:30 AM.


#13 Oraeon1224

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 09:11 AM

To clarify: Mainly I would like to have more granular control over the AI engagement setup of my teammates, as then you could control a bit more how you work as a unit. I would like to be able to select specific formations for my units, line abreast, echelon, and V formation, etc... with each part of that formation being based on the launch screen teammate order (I could put LRM mechs in the back). I would also love to have a weapons free but stay in formation option to avoid the AI teammates from rushing off and getting isolated. I would like to be able to ask a teammate to cover my 6 where they would be weapons free but stayed glued to me and focus on my target until another mech targets my rear (only mechs not tanks) then break off to engage. I would also love to have a flanking/pincher command where the AI runs wide and then approaches the engagement from the side or rear.

I personally have not seen teammates or enemies with PPC or other long range weapons try to engage at a range that would minimize damage to themselves and maximize their weapon's potential. However, maybe I have just failed to notice this. I also have so far not seen the AI engage jump jets so far. I would love to see a spider use its speed to attack jump away and then return to reengage, instead of just circling me--As an aside I now it would be unbalancing to have in MWO but I wish in this game jump jets accelerated you much quicker up and forward to minimize targeting; currently they are so slow they don't really make it hard to target a mech. This could be balanced by a 2 second balance recovery on landing where you couldn't move . Also I have not noticed the AI using cover in any engagements.

I like this game and feel it is fun, and also realize AI is very limited in the real world. MWO engagements show how mechs should really be used. It is probably not replicable, but I would love to see at least a few human-like tactics available.

#14 Koniving

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:32 AM

View PostOraeon1224, on 04 January 2020 - 09:11 AM, said:

To clarify: Mainly I would like to have more granular control over the AI engagement setup of my teammates, as then you could control a bit more how you work as a unit. I would like to be able to select specific formations for my units, line abreast, echelon, and V formation, etc... with each part of that formation being based on the launch screen teammate order (I could put LRM mechs in the back). I would also love to have a weapons free but stay in formation option to avoid the AI teammates from rushing off and getting isolated. I would like to be able to ask a teammate to cover my 6 where they would be weapons free but stayed glued to me and focus on my target until another mech targets my rear (only mechs not tanks) then break off to engage. I would also love to have a flanking/pincher command where the AI runs wide and then approaches the engagement from the side or rear.

I personally have not seen teammates or enemies with PPC or other long range weapons try to engage at a range that would minimize damage to themselves and maximize their weapon's potential. However, maybe I have just failed to notice this. I also have so far not seen the AI engage jump jets so far. I would love to see a spider use its speed to attack jump away and then return to reengage, instead of just circling me--As an aside I now it would be unbalancing to have in MWO but I wish in this game jump jets accelerated you much quicker up and forward to minimize targeting; currently they are so slow they don't really make it hard to target a mech. This could be balanced by a 2 second balance recovery on landing where you couldn't move . Also I have not noticed the AI using cover in any engagements.

I like this game and feel it is fun, and also realize AI is very limited in the real world. MWO engagements show how mechs should really be used. It is probably not replicable, but I would love to see at least a few human-like tactics available.


Considering that formation is an AI behavior tree which assigns positions based on lancemate number (so lancemate 1 is to your left, lancemate 2 to your right, and lancemate 3 is behind you -- example not necessarily actual positions), it should be relatively easy for a modder that has the knowhow to add additional command-trees to the menu to add in additional formation behaviors. The issue of them leaving formation is some strategies kind of take over...

Myself I'm not adding that to my workload, I'm at 199 weapons and I'm still not done and then when I am I gotta distribute them onto mechs and the universe....but I'm sure someone will make that mod.

You can force long range engagements by making it so that mechs exclusively have LRMs, PPCs, etc. AC/2s, ER Large Lasers, Large Lasers, and AC/5s can also illicit these behaviors. The requirement is to have at least 2 of the same weapon, and do not have them in formation (as formation overrides the "I shouldn't get close" aspect.) Enemies with these setups exhibit the Ranged combat behavior.

I'm not certain how to force the cover behavior, but I have seen enemies do this. (The Atlas K in particular).

#15 Koniving

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:39 AM

Also:
Have seen Jagermech, and Blackjack perform the cover behavior but they will lose this behavior once you get too close. So I suspect it's related to range + proximity of structures?

#16 Hawk_eye

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 12:38 PM

View PostOraeon1224, on 01 January 2020 - 07:16 PM, said:

My biggest disappointment in MW5 (which I still find fun) is the AI. All mechs regardless of loadout try to race forward and engage in a circle of death. While this was fine for classic MechWarrior I wish things had moved forward a bit. I wish the game had 3 type of AI.

Short range: AI for short range predominant mechs. Would close in and circle (current AI)
Medium range: AI would try to use cover and movement to stay out of short range. Most AI in the game
Long range: AI would jump and move to remain at long range, for mechs with PPC, AC2, LRM etc...

For mechs with mixed loadouts the AI cold be randomly selected. Also would need a switcher if ammo ran out or the weapon at the appropriate range was lost (PPC lost converts to medium range)

From the player standpoint I would like to be able to apply an AI setup to each lance mate and have commands to change their engagement class.

Finally Falcon 4.0 had several AI controls in place for some sort of strategy. I wish this game had pincher, stay on wing, an similar controls for the AI.


Just came across this vid:



From what I see there, the AI doesn't seem to be half bad.

#17 Koniving

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 12:48 PM

View PostHawk_eye, on 04 January 2020 - 12:38 PM, said:


Just came across this vid:



From what I see there, the AI doesn't seem to be half bad.


AI tactics are determined by the loadout, size of the mech, and a few other minor conditions.
There's also locked/unlocked behaviors based on pilot skills.

Also, they try to maintain at least 270 meters unless they have weapons that require them to be closer.

Edited by Koniving, 04 January 2020 - 12:50 PM.


#18 mad kat

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 04:02 PM

View Postcszolee79, on 02 January 2020 - 02:53 AM, said:

Friendly fire.
On many missions my AI drones are more dangerous to each other than the enemy.

Number 4 (the "rearguard) loves to shoot the rest in the back.
I've lost Number 2 and 3 several times when Number 4 alpha striked them in the back with an Atlas.

90% of the back armor damage is due to friendly fire.


Judging by my years in MWO real human players are just as bad as removing as much friendly armour.

So by that measure the A.I. is pretty realistic.

Edited by mad kat, 04 January 2020 - 04:09 PM.


#19 Iron Heel

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 06:58 AM

F1-F2
F1-F3
F2-F3, F3-F3, F4-F3..

You are the Commander, after all..

#20 Necroconvict

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 03:00 PM

AI that actually listen to nearly anything would be nice. You tell them where to stay.. good dog.. you turn around.. and like a puppy they venture around the hill anyway. The heck is that, they are seasoned soldiers...





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