226 replies to this topic

[Xaat Xuun]

looking at my Alts on jarl's, I can see which month I reached t3/2, my % is lower

[VonBruinwald]

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2020 - 03:23 PM, said:

We already know that GroupQ leads to a generally lower average match score with a higher KDR/WLR to seasons of GroupQ. Even more easily worked out now that GroupQ is non-existent.

There is nothing else left to prove or discuss.

I've seen this claim a lot but is there any proof?

[Brauer]

VonBruinwald, on 21 January 2020 - 03:45 PM, said:

I've seen this claim a lot but is there any proof?

Well it follows logically. If you are grouped with more strong players there is more competition for damage and kills and you have a relatively high chance to win compared to soloq where you can farm and win/loss can be more random. I have noticed that I have a higher wlr and kdr when I play GroupQ than soloq.

So basically the trend has been observed by many over time and there hasn't exactly been a theory to the contrary. Even the people who complain about GroupQ stats being thrown in with solo complain that it inflated kdr and wlr iirc.

[VonBruinwald]

Brauer, on 21 January 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

Well it follows logically. If you are grouped with more strong players there is more competition for damage and kills and you have a relatively high chance to win compared to soloq where you can farm and win/loss can be more random. I have noticed that I have a higher wlr and kdr when I play GroupQ than soloq.

So basically the trend has been observed by many over time and there hasn't exactly been a theory to the contrary. Even the people who complain about GroupQ stats being thrown in with solo complain that it inflated kdr and wlr iirc.

It also follows logically, that sync dropping confers an unfair advantage when teammates are stacked against pugs.

Unfortunately this logic is thrown out the window by group players because... "Proof"...

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

VonBruinwald, on 21 January 2020 - 03:45 PM, said:

I've seen this claim a lot but is there any proof?

look, there is a LIMITED amount one side can "farm" in dmg. having a good group means you share that limited dmg-pool with more competition, as everybody tries to snack as many mechs as possible. w is literally key here.
I had games where I got "more than my share" cause I simply had the faster mech; also had those matches where I dropped "too heavy" and arrived late at the party.


you see this happen in FW, too. a lot. whenever one side is clearly stronger than the other, you make win after win;
otoh, you'll find it harder to do "your damage";
example: in "normal" FW-matches, I did around 1600-2200 roughly. with really good groups (aka competition), it goes down to 1200-1600;
at the same time, you know that things go WRONG when you can do your 3K+ and victory is still hard to come by (read: you got 2 sides hiding, and games will go downhill from here on in quality).

[Prototelis]

lol, back to tinfoil.

[Brauer]

VonBruinwald, on 21 January 2020 - 04:03 PM, said:

It also follows logically, that sync dropping confers an unfair advantage when teammates are stacked against pugs.

Unfortunately this logic is thrown out the window by group players because... "Proof"...

Except that's unreliable and often ends up with players in the same group playing against each other....

FYI people from a very wide skill range sync drop from what I can tell, not just good players

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

VonBruinwald, on 21 January 2020 - 04:03 PM, said:

It also follows logically, that sync dropping confers an unfair advantage when teammates are stacked against pugs.

Unfortunately this logic is thrown out the window by group players because... "Proof"...

maybe you should do such a syncdrop yourself and see how much that confers as cheating; usually, people are quite competitive and when syncing, there is no "teamplay" behind the scenes in teamspeak;
all there is is good banter, throwing insults and having fun;
oh, and btw most of the time a harder match, as there is more competition as well as better opponents.

but feel free to dismiss that and have it your way..

[VonBruinwald]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 21 January 2020 - 04:18 PM, said:

usually, people are quite competitive and when syncing, there is no "teamplay" behind the scenes in teamspeak;

Usually... that means it does happen.

[Prototelis]

Sync dropping always turns into everyone piling on whoever the good player is on either team.

It actively hurts the WLR of a good player because it is easier to control the game and secure a win when you aren't being focused more than usual.

You also can't guarantee that everyone ends up on the same team, or even in the same game.

It confers no advantage.

[MischiefSC]

Based on total matches and the nature of group queue (top performers get a buff, everyone else a nerf) the impact of group queue on viability of stats is about 0.08%, or was as of about 6 months ago when I last charted it.

It means there's about 80 players with inflated stats from GQ and about 4k players with about the same or slightly deflated stats from GQ. It's 0 sum so all the wins those guys get come out of other peoples buckets so to speak.

In the end though the impact of GQ (back when GQ was a thing, it's really not now) is minimal. There's a few dozen people it pushed from a 2+ W/L to a 3+ w/l for a few months and a couple it pushed above that. For everyone else GQ was either comparable to their SQ results or a bit lower. Because, again, 0 sum - only X number of matches with 12 winners and 12 losers in each match. For that handful to do significantly better everyone else had to do slightly worse.

For all the concern, when you math it out the actual impact of GQ is negligible. Red herring argument.

[VonBruinwald]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2020 - 04:33 PM, said:

Based on total matches and the nature of group queue (top performers get a buff, everyone else a nerf) the impact of group queue on viability of stats is about 0.08%, or was as of about 6 months ago when I last charted it.

It means there's about 80 players with inflated stats from GQ and about 4k players with about the same or slightly deflated stats from GQ. It's 0 sum so all the wins those guys get come out of other peoples buckets so to speak.

In the end though the impact of GQ (back when GQ was a thing, it's really not now) is minimal. There's a few dozen people it pushed from a 2+ W/L to a 3+ w/l for a few months and a couple it pushed above that. For everyone else GQ was either comparable to their SQ results or a bit lower. Because, again, 0 sum - only X number of matches with 12 winners and 12 losers in each match. For that handful to do significantly better everyone else had to do slightly worse.

For all the concern, when you math it out the actual impact of GQ is negligible. Red herring argument.

Proto; it's tinfoil suppository time!

Given those numbers true it's probably safe to assume:

A few 12-mans were stomping all the smaller groups underfoot; this can be deduced from the ratio of players gaining and losing stats. If groups were the same size/winning equally you'd see a more even distribution, and if smaller groups were the ones winning we'd see only a few people losing stats and the majority rising.

And if we use FP has been any indicator it's safe to assume some of those 12-mans were actively avoiding each other. Less chance of a win in a 'fair' fight.

And people wonder why group queue died. It's not so much died as the newbies were driven elsewhere.

[Prototelis]

12 mans never did the majority of the stomping in GQ

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 21 January 2020 - 04:55 PM, said:

12 mans never did the majority of the stomping in GQ

You mean it was the 12-mans getting stomped?

[Prototelis]

Running 12 people in GQ leaves you with a very distinct tonnage disadvantage.

The best groups/players during peak would play in 4-8 man teams.

Edited by Prototelis, 21 January 2020 - 05:16 PM.

[Xiphias]

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

You might like to think that D8 has good intentions.... However after seeing him blatantly lie here on forums, in game and in twitch chats on multiple occasions over years... And I'm not the only one BTW.

There is no giving him the benefit of the doubt anymore on those lies. Especially when he's been corrected with evidence numerous times.

Don't misunderstand, I don't think that he has good intentions (though who knows, maybe he does). My point is that in fighting the monster it's important not to become the monster. Discrediting factually incorrect information is good, but if you start calling things that are actually true false by jumping in too quickly to discredit him all you're doing is hurting your own credibility and playing into the narrative that it's a personal attack, rather than a factual one.

It's important to take the time to be careful and accurate, even when dealing with people who are consistently wrong, that's my point.

[A Rabid Raccoon With A Shotgun]

Dr Cara Carcass, on 21 January 2020 - 03:20 PM, said:

He last played in 2017 and still is on the forums and acts as if he actually experienced the current state of the game.
Without the experience of how ppl play and how certain stats come together at the end of the game within the new meta, with weapons he hasnt fired once since his last game is so far ago he wants to tell us how everything works.....

It amazes me how some of you just think the "create account" button doesn't exist/work anymore, might be going big brain mode here which might be to big for you, but ever think he created a new account? Not that hard, email services aplenty lots of names free. Just my 2 cents on petty arguing and e-peen measuring in a F2P game. Some of you may have paid for early access, but that bragging right sailed away long ago, just like PGI is distancing themselves from their multiplayer mode work in DNF.

[Khobai]

Xiphias, on 21 January 2020 - 05:06 PM, said:

Discrediting factually incorrect information is good, but if you start calling things that are actually true false by jumping in too quickly to discredit him all you're doing is hurting your own credibility and playing into the narrative that it's a personal attack, rather than a factual one.

Ash knows what I said was factually correct. Hes just incapable of admitting when hes wrong.

Again to reiterate what I said: Jarl's list does not separate solo and group queue stats. Thats all I said. Its factually correct. Everyone knows its correct, even Ash, whos hilariously in denial about it. He even claimed you could discern the difference between solo and group stats but then completely failed to expand on that when asked to prove it. Because he couldnt.

So what he does instead is resort to name calling, stat shaming, and strawman arguments to try and save face and deflect people from the original argument. He does this every single time he loses an argument to me. And hes taken the bait and proven thats all hes capable of yet again.

A Rabid Raccoon With A Shotgun, on 21 January 2020 - 05:18 PM, said:

It amazes me how some of you just think the "create account" button doesn't exist/work anymore, might be going big brain mode here which might be to big for you, but ever think he created a new account? Not that hard, email services aplenty lots of names free. Just my 2 cents on petty arguing and e-peen measuring in a F2P game. Some of you may have paid for early access, but that bragging right sailed away long ago, just like PGI is distancing themselves from their multiplayer mode work in DNF.

it amazes me too. especially when I tell people i havent played on that account for 3 years and use an alt account.

But it doesnt suit people like Ash to believe I play on an alt account. Because then they couldnt claim I dont play the game anymore. Because that is one of the cornerstones of his fallacious arguments. He cant win any argument on its own merits so he has to resort to personal attacks and absurd claims that people dont play the game but for some reason still post on the forums. I post on the forums BECAUSE I play the game and have been playing the game on and off since 2012.

Quite frankly its stupid that I have to defend factually correct statements that everyone knows are correct just because certain people dislike me and cant handle when im right and theyre wrong.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2020 - 05:48 PM.

[Brauer]

Khobai, on 21 January 2020 - 05:25 PM, said:

Ash knows what I said was factually correct. Hes just incapable of admitting when hes wrong.

Again to reiterate what I said: Jarl's list does not separate solo and group queue stats. Thats all I said. Its factually correct. Everyone knows its correct, even Ash, who hilariously in denial about it. He even claimed you could discern the difference between solo and group stats but then completely failed to expand on that when asked to prove it. Because he couldnt.

So what he does instead is resort to name calling, stat shaming, and strawman arguments to try and save face and deflect people from the original argument. He does this every single time he loses an argument to me. And hes taken the bait and proven thats all hes capable of yet again.



it amazes me too. especially when I tell people i havent played on that account for 3 years and use an alt account.

But it doesnt suit people like Ash to believe I play on an alt account. Because then they couldnt claim I dont play the game anymore. Because that is one of the cornerstones of his fallacious arguments. He cant win any argument on its own merits so he has to resort to personal attacks and absurd claims that people dont play the game but for some reason still post on the forums.

Quite frankly its stupid that I have to defend factually correct statments that everyone knows are correct just because certain people dislike me and cant handle when im right and theyre wrong.

Your factually correct statement is irrelevant because GroupQ has been dead for over 6 months. Since you built an argument that assumes GroupQ exists it isn't a huge leap to conclude you either don't play, or just don't know what you are talking about. See my prior posts, like #144 in this thread for more of my argument as to why GroupQ being a part of the data doesn't matter anymore, and how the dead queue helps prove it wasn't that big of an issue anyway.

Stop dodging evidence that disproves your core premise just so you can continue stating a fact (that GroupQ stats are mixed with soloq) that is not disputed and that is irrelevant to the larger discussion.

[Khobai]

Brauer, on 21 January 2020 - 05:49 PM, said:

Your factually correct statement is irrelevant because GroupQ has been dead for over 6 months.

GroupQ has not been so dead that no groupQ games at all have been played. Stop claiming that because its factually incorrect.

Brauer, on 21 January 2020 - 05:49 PM, said:

Stop dodging evidence that disproves your core premise

What evidence have I dodged? Your unfounded claim that groupQ is so dead that not a single groupQ game has been played in 6 months? Its not THAT dead because ive played games in group queue within the last 6 months.

Your opinion is not evidence. Your exaggerated statements are not evidence. I have not dodged evidence because you have not provided any evidence to dodge. Because there HAVE been GroupQ games played within the last 6 months and that is provable.

GroupQ still has a bearing on stats. Maybe not as much as it used to. But its still there.

And again, ill reiterate my point that stats dont tell the whole story anyway. Theres chess grandmasters with 1400 ratings. Does it mean theyre mediocre chess players? No it just means theyre grandmasters that have fallen into a ratings slump. It happens. You should not judge people solely because of their stats. Jarl's list has value as a tool but you should not categorize players solely using jarl's list.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2020 - 06:08 PM.