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The Fallacy Of "jarl's List = Knowledge"


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#41 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:16 PM

1. Sure letting your kids play on your account could worsen your scores. But, how many people do that enough to have it impact their Jarl’s by even 5%?. Also, I have had 4 kids who play this game. They each have their own account, because if you are starting them off playing a tier 1 account, you are making the experience much more challenging than it should be starting out. Tier 1 is only an XP bar, but my kids started off doing 800+ damage in tier 5 just because I could tell them how to build a starter mech right.

2. As many have said....that spotter cheetah isn’t valuable, so why should it be recognized as such.

3. assuming you mean that meta= anything good. Because most players do mix it up quite a bit, but many won’t play builds that are just bad for the pure pain of it. However, even playing non-meta (bad builds) would maybe drop a good pilots jarls ranking 5% or 10% at worst. Not enough to take them from “good” to “bad” in jarls terms. Honestly, it’s hard for me to picture the top 1%’ers (who are all better than me) being gimped that bad. Those guys would still be super dangerous because they know positioning, etc.....no matter what they are in, they would be prioritized as a target.

4. Man....the top guys want damage and there is a lot more damage to be had early match than late...just less meat on the bone late in matches. Top guys don’t always stay with the team, but they are doing work.. . They don’t sit on 0 damage, half the match otherwise they would be losing a lot more than they are. Also, if you are picking maps bad for your build on purpose .....you are materially contributing to your team’s defeat pre-drop. You might like to work uphill for whatever reason, but don’t talk about how your contributions to matches might not be recognized in match score if you are doing that junk to your team.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 16 January 2020 - 01:17 PM.


#42 Kodyn

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:21 PM

View PostVxheous, on 16 January 2020 - 12:54 PM, said:


Can you name a couple of these guys for me? Just curious (it's not name and shame, it's praise, so it's ok to name)


Ok, actually checking and I misspoke, I should have said "as good as or better", and "than most" lol. I actually have no idea what your stats look like, and Cara is obviously really, really good, as well as Haze and Mischief. I used to play a bit with some of the 228 comp guys before they were 228, like hideyourkids, and one of my original mentors was Minoxen, who doesn't really play much anymore. I know there were others, but I don't believe any of them still play. Those are two very opposite cases though - hideyourkids is an excellent player, but rarely if ever called in my experience, hardly said a word in fact. Mino was a content creator, so he was a great teacher, though had lower numbers than your usual comp guys. Both were/are still miles above me, and above average though, that's for sure.

All I was really trying to say is that there are great shot-callers that don't happen to be 99%, and 90%+ players that never say a word or do much other than play really well, quietly. I'd take advice from an 89% player if the 99% guy isn't saying anything, they're both better than I am lol. I've played with some really decent players in this game without breaking out of my own mediocrity, so I suppose you can only learn so much before your limitations are revealed.

#43 Vxheous

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:30 PM

View PostKodyn, on 16 January 2020 - 01:21 PM, said:


Ok, actually checking and I misspoke, I should have said "as good as or better", and "than most" lol. I actually have no idea what your stats look like, and Cara is obviously really, really good, as well as Haze and Mischief. I used to play a bit with some of the 228 comp guys before they were 228, like hideyourkids, and one of my original mentors was Minoxen, who doesn't really play much anymore. I know there were others, but I don't believe any of them still play. Those are two very opposite cases though - hideyourkids is an excellent player, but rarely if ever called in my experience, hardly said a word in fact. Mino was a content creator, so he was a great teacher, though had lower numbers than your usual comp guys. Both were/are still miles above me, and above average though, that's for sure.

All I was really trying to say is that there are great shot-callers that don't happen to be 99%, and 90%+ players that never say a word or do much other than play really well, quietly. I'd take advice from an 89% player if the 99% guy isn't saying anything, they're both better than I am lol. I've played with some really decent players in this game without breaking out of my own mediocrity, so I suppose you can only learn so much before your limitations are revealed.


All good, I was just curious who you had in mind is all. Most 99% don't talk much in QP, honestly there's no much that needs to be said, other than the occasional "turn around, shoot and we win"

#44 Kodyn

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:41 PM

View PostVxheous, on 16 January 2020 - 01:30 PM, said:

All good, I was just curious who you had in mind is all. Most 99% don't talk much in QP, honestly there's no much that needs to be said, other than the occasional "turn around, shoot and we win"


Yeah, I've definitely noticed this. There's certain guys I know will always call, and will usually produce a win when their calls are followed, but a large number of the best players I know by name never say a word apart from "gg". Myself I never use comms these days because I don't use headphones, and don't want my music bothering anyone. Not saying I'm in any way that good, but when I did use to call, I won more, but it was stressful for me. I'm better at calling apparently than actually playing, but nowadays I'd rather just play, some command wheel use, and let my stats suffer.

There's players out there with even worse stats than me who tend to call often and I've won a lot when they do, so sometimes at least, halfway competent communication can be better than none. I know it's not optimal, and for the better players, completely unnecessary, but I feel like the OP intended this thread more to be about the guys who don't really know good players by name and don't know who to listen to. Or not, I don't really know anymore, this thread has gone all over the place...

#45 dario03

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:53 PM

View PostKhobai, on 16 January 2020 - 09:37 AM, said:


and your point is?

jarls was not completely reset since people stopped playing in group queue. those stats from when people played in group queue are still very much there.

besides group queue isnt 100% dead and most group queue matches are stomps now. so thats continuing to taint the data. thats always been the problem with jarls list.

jarls list should only should solo queue stats. that would reflect an individuals skill way better.


Having the stats separate would be nice but as has been said before, group queue probably isn't the best way to get to the top of the Jarls leaderboard. Could be boosting some not so good players or I guess if you are really good, and play with a bunch of decent players or specifically ask your team to boost you it could work. But in regular play a high scorer would probably get lower avgms. Stomps often times don't give you a great score and that's what matters for Jarls list rank. And if you play with a small group like a 2man you probably have more chances of getting stomped than in solo.

Edited by dario03, 16 January 2020 - 01:54 PM.


#46 Scout Derek

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:59 PM

View Postdario03, on 16 January 2020 - 01:53 PM, said:


Having the stats separate would be nice but as has been said before, group queue probably isn't the best way to get to the top of the Jarls leaderboard. Could be boosting some not so good players or I guess if you are really good, and play with a bunch of decent players or specifically ask your team to boost you it could work. But in regular play a high scorer would probably get lower avgms. Stomps often times don't give you a great score and that's what matters for Jarls list rank. And if you play with a small group like a 2man you probably have more chances of getting stomped than in solo.

not to mention some people you know for certain don't drop group in some cases, or don't like to group in quickplay.

They did seperate faction play stats which is nice.

#47 D U N E

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:14 PM

I am jumping with what everyone else is saying, only time I did better than I usually do in group que over solo que was when I was dropping along with one other pilot - and I had gotten to drop with a evenly matched team. I was able to cooperate with that one other pilot really well to inflate my own score.
Saying that, I know when I briefly got to drop with GONK/KONG and such, I had to do work to get damage - and even though in pugs I was generally OK - at the start of a few matches I was doing sub 300 matchscore because they killed things so fast I could barely get damage in. Imagine trying to do 900+ damage, when everyone on your team is capable of doing 900 games. There just isn't that much armour to go around. As well as maximum tonnage in game usually being lower in group matches.

Edited by D U N E, 16 January 2020 - 02:15 PM.


#48 Kodyn

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:25 PM

I know Group used to tank my stats and earnings, for sure. W/L would go up, everything else would go down, because damage was spread pretty evenly across the team, as well as kills- where in QP you usually have 1-3 people getting all the kills and living longer, and the usual few idiots dying immediately, taking themselves out of consideration, leaving you free to do the damage they could have done.

#49 Horseman

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:44 PM

View PostKodyn, on 16 January 2020 - 01:41 PM, said:

Yeah, I've definitely noticed this. There's certain guys I know will always call, and will usually produce a win when their calls are followed, but a large number of the best players I know by name never say a word apart from "gg". Myself I never use comms these days because I don't use headphones, and don't want my music bothering anyone. Not saying I'm in any way that good, but when I did use to call, I won more, but it was stressful for me. I'm better at calling apparently than actually playing, but nowadays I'd rather just play, some command wheel use, and let my stats suffer.
There's players out there with even worse stats than me who tend to call often and I've won a lot when they do, so sometimes at least, halfway competent communication can be better than none. I know it's not optimal, and for the better players, completely unnecessary, but I feel like the OP intended this thread more to be about the guys who don't really know good players by name and don't know who to listen to. Or not, I don't really know anymore, this thread has gone all over the place...

I don't generally try to drop call, but I always use comms to call out enemy positions and/or weak components. Not as good as proper drop calling, but if ppl are listening (and you know there's always that one comms-deaf sociopath in a lurm Atlas Posted Image ) then it makes a little bit of positive impact.

#50 The Jewce Iz Loose

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:45 PM

You are better off turning around and making calls to your wall than making calls in a QP. Waste of time, half the time in FP people still don't listen to calls.

#51 Johny Rocket

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:55 PM

I wish Jarl's List would weigh KMDD more than a Kill. Yeah I know its reflected in the Score but the score in game doesn't weight it as much as a kill. You run by and shoot a guy once and get the glory while the poor sod who did the work doesn't.

Edited by Johny Rocket, 16 January 2020 - 03:01 PM.


#52 Horseman

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:02 PM

View PostJohny Rocket, on 16 January 2020 - 02:55 PM, said:

I wish Jarl's List would weigh KMDD more than a Kill. Yeah I know its reflected in the Score but the score in game doesn't wweight it as much as a kill. You run buy and shoot a guy once and get the glory while the poor sod who did the work doesn't.
Unfortunately that's down to PGI's scoring algorithm and the fact KMDDs aren't even included on the boards (which I think is bs but what can you do)

#53 Johny Rocket

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:06 PM

View PostHorseman, on 16 January 2020 - 03:02 PM, said:

Unfortunately that's down to PGI's scoring algorithm and the fact KMDDs aren't even included on the boards (which I think is bs but what can you do)

Yeah Im a totally average player and I try to team play so i get twice as many KMDD as I do kills but low ranking on JL.

#54 Dionnsai

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:23 PM

If a pilot is consistently in the 90th percentile, you can assume he knows a few things:

Which mechs are good
Which builds are good
How to position himself effectively to output high damage while minimizing damage taken and thus how to trade damage effectively.

If a pilot is consistently in the sub 50th percentile (especially if he has remained there for YEARS), you can assume a few things:

• He probably uses terrible mechs with terrible builds
• He probably yolos his mechs often
• He is not someone you should view as a mentor for "how to play Mechwarrior online"

READ: I am not talking about new pilots here, I am talking about people who have REMAINED in the sub-50th percentile while others have progressed.

#55 Nightbird

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:25 PM

everyone know the true measurement of skill in MWO comes from SWOL's power rankings

https://www.reddit.c...power_rankings/

#56 Dionnsai

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:34 PM

View PostNightbird, on 16 January 2020 - 03:25 PM, said:

everyone know the true measurement of skill in MWO comes from SWOL's power rankings

https://www.reddit.c...power_rankings/


You're going to update these right?

#57 Kodyn

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:42 PM

View PostNightbird, on 16 January 2020 - 03:25 PM, said:

everyone know the true measurement of skill in MWO comes from SWOL's power rankings

https://www.reddit.c...power_rankings/


This is solid gold, and I too am wondering about an update. Haven't played FP in forever and looking to get back into it, be interested in seeing some info on who's still active and their performance, however humorous.

#58 UnofficialOperator

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 04:10 PM

1. With all initial conditions being the same and with a large enough sample size, are you going to follow the best practices of the doctor who says he does all the right things but his patients die 50% of the time or the doctor whose patients die 1% of the time?

2. Dunning Krueger effect

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 16 January 2020 - 04:10 PM.


#59 Johny Rocket

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 04:12 PM

View PostDionnsai, on 16 January 2020 - 03:23 PM, said:


• He probably yolos his mechs often



This is something I am guilty of, I like playing aggressively and get over extended sometimes. Also if Im the last guy alive I don't try to run around racking up a score I go at the enemy get in a few shots maybe a kill and let everyone get on to the next match.

#60 VonBruinwald

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 04:21 PM

View PostDionnsai, on 16 January 2020 - 03:23 PM, said:

If a pilot is consistently in the sub 50th percentile (especially if he has remained there for YEARS), you can assume a few things:

• He probably uses terrible mechs with terrible builds
• He probably yolos his mechs often
• He is not someone you should view as a mentor for "how to play Mechwarrior online"



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Some people aren't bad by their own fault. Unless you consider 'prioritising food and rent over a new gaming rig' self inflicted.





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