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Mech Agility With Real-Life Physics


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#41 LordNothing

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Posted 24 January 2020 - 04:21 PM

View PostNightbird, on 24 January 2020 - 04:13 PM, said:

Yet is not more than what each of our brains does every day Posted Image


the human brain can do real time inverse kinematics and can plot trajectories of moving objects with insane precision. but the human brain is a trained neural net while a control computer has to do everything algorithmically. figuring out how to do it that way in incredibly difficult. of course this is probably why there are neurohelmets involved.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 January 2020 - 04:21 PM.


#42 Y E O N N E

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Posted 24 January 2020 - 04:22 PM

View PostNightbird, on 24 January 2020 - 04:13 PM, said:

Yet is not more than what each of our brains does every day Posted Image


And thus we arrive at...the neurohelmet!

Posted Image

#43 BenMillard

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Posted 24 January 2020 - 04:52 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 January 2020 - 03:45 PM, said:

I've clearly stated what BT gyros do - compensate for any kind of excess angular momentum. That leads to any and all types of weapon placement not affecting a mech in any way when torso angular acceleration happens.

We are not discussing the fiction about 'Mech mobility.

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 January 2020 - 03:45 PM, said:

How they do it is irrelevant.


That is the whole point of this topic! We are discussing the real physics that would affect 'Mech mobility. Just for fun. A thought experiment.

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 January 2020 - 03:45 PM, said:

Dude. This literally has nothing to do with what I've told you twice already.


Your reply has literally nothing to do with the topic the rest of us are discussing! This subject might not be interesting to you and that's OK.

#44 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 03:04 AM

View PostBenMillard, on 24 January 2020 - 04:52 PM, said:

We are not discussing the fiction about 'Mech mobility.

You are discussing mechs. Mechs operate differently from modern day robots. For instance their movement is driven by myomers and not servos. A human can bend without losing balance, while a human-shaped robot can not, exactly because human has muscles instead of servos.

You can discuss actual physics with actual robots all you want, but any conclusion you make will only be relevant to regular existing robots. Same conclusion will NOT apply to mechs. Making any sort of conclusion about mech pitch angles and agility without consideration of how mechs actually work is false. And last I've checked topic is called "Mech Agility".

#45 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 03:22 AM

View PostNightbird, on 24 January 2020 - 03:49 PM, said:

Any is not the same as infinite. A gyro that can stand a mech up from prone would not be able to hold an increased pitch that a mech's center of mass does not allow. An infinite gyro would allow mechs to run vertically, obvious this does not happen.

I take any to mean from any direction, within reasonable limits, as this is the only interpretation that makes sense.

I've explained how an "increased pitch" is held three times already. It is NOT done by gyros.

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 January 2020 - 03:45 PM, said:

... when there is no acceleration and just static offset of the mech center of mass, i.e. static pitch angle, gyros aren't doing anything. The balance is kept by myomers ...

"Mechs" operate on certain principles, and if you do not consider those you can not make any kind of conclusion regarding "mechs". So, you can proceed with your discussion about real-life physics applied to real-life robots, but please remove the word "mech" from the discussion and from the thread name.

#46 BenMillard

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 04:21 AM

A few issues with your angle on this...

If engines in BT really had unlimited power, it wouldn't matter which engine size you fitted to a Mech. (Urbies would go whatever speed they wanted, up to the physical limits of their leg pivots.) BT engines have immense power, for sure, but there are limits.

The strength of the structure is also limited. (There is a tonnage limit.) Delivering too much power to myomers and leaning too hard on the gyro would overstress the internals of a Mech. A bit like using a digger's shovel to move it around: the hydraulics have the power to do this but such extreme and unusual forces are likely to bend an arm or shear off a pivot.

Forward pitch with high mounts, to get back on topic, is physically limited by simple balance. Strength doesn't increase the degree to which an unbalanced load can be extended. (Greater strength does allow a barely balanced load to be held longer. If the Mech mass is balanced, it has the power to stay like that until the fuel source runs out.)

In the experiment to hold weights high up and lean forwards, you'll soon fall on your face no matter how rigidly you hold your body. That's why you're supposed to do the experiment! Feel the physics. If the load moves beyond the balanced point, it's a faceplant for any system.

Mechs with high mounts, therefore, should have limited pitch. Mechs with low mounts should have greater pitch.

Gyroscopic stabilisers (not to be confused with sensors) only help for a short time (as discussed) due to the finite amount of energy that can be stored in a spinning mass. It runs down while the potential energy is being converted into kinetic energy which resists the force of falling too far forward.

The 'Mech has to return to a stable footing for the Gyro to spin up again, during which time it can't hold an unbalanced load. The 'unsteady' phase in the recent BattleTech PC game simulates (to some extent) this spin-up phase before the gyro returns to full energy.

Aside: A Mech would be more vulnerable to knockdowns during this spin-up phase as there won't be much potential energy when the gyro mass is spinning slower. When a small Mech touches down after a brief jumpjet burst, that's the time to shoot it!

Allowing more organic movement than we have in the videogames can extend the limits limits but they don't go away entirely. Putting one leg further forward lets a humanoid shape pitch further forward; a high lunge position. It is possible to walk like this; the whole body is held a bit lower in order to shift the entire gait to the front. (Top speed is reduced and it's also less stable.)

With more organic movement, a Dragon could offset its legs to the right while running and steering left. Thing is...so could any other Mech! So even in the most favourable intepretation, the inescapable limits of simple balance will disadvantage some designs for some movements when compared to others.

Fun topic. But please let my Centurion and Dragon stay balanced and twisty. @nightbird

Edited by BenMillard, 25 January 2020 - 04:27 AM.


#47 Nightbird

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 07:42 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 25 January 2020 - 03:22 AM, said:

I've explained how an "increased pitch" is held three times already. It is NOT done by gyros.


Do you know know balance works? By keeping your center of mass over your feet, this allow gravity, which pulls straight down, to be counteracted by ground pushing straight up through your feet.

How far you can tilt forward is limited by the size of your feet. When your center of mass moves over your toes, the force of gravity can no longer be canceled, and you fall.

The higher your center of mass, the less angle you can tilt before the CoM moves over your feet.

The same applies to mechs. Muscle strength doesn't come into play here.

View PostBenMillard, on 25 January 2020 - 04:21 AM, said:

Fun topic. But please let my Centurion and Dragon stay balanced and twisty. @nightbird


PGI is not going to update MWO.

#48 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 09:39 AM

View PostNightbird, on 25 January 2020 - 07:42 AM, said:

Do you know know balance works? By keeping your center of mass over your feet, this allow gravity, which pulls straight down, to be counteracted by ground pushing straight up through your feet.

Can you bend? Somehow I doubt you have a gyro in you. Do you know how anything works?

View PostNightbird, on 25 January 2020 - 07:42 AM, said:

How far you can tilt forward is limited by the size of your feet. When your center of mass moves over your toes, the force of gravity can no longer be canceled, and you fall.

Obviously gymnastics doesn't exist ... Obviously japanese people don't exist either, otherwise how would they bow to each other.

View PostNightbird, on 25 January 2020 - 07:42 AM, said:

The same applies to mechs. Muscle strength doesn't come into play here.

Sadly for you, it does.

#49 BenMillard

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 10:27 AM

Oh, I see what you mean. Bowing on a spherical, rotating Earth would be impossible so this proves the Earth is flat and stationary.

#50 AizakG

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:13 PM

Wait, is this thread now about the mechanics of basic human movement?

I can't think of a single subject that mechwarrior online players are more qualified to talk about. Posted Image

#51 dario03

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:22 PM

View PostBenMillard, on 25 January 2020 - 10:27 AM, said:

Oh, I see what you mean. Bowing on a spherical, rotating Earth would be impossible so this proves the Earth is flat and stationary.


Dude don't be silly, obviously the Earth is being accelerated up by a giant space turtle...

#52 Nightbird

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:34 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 25 January 2020 - 09:39 AM, said:

Can you bend? Somehow I doubt you have a gyro in you. Do you know how anything works?


Obviously gymnastics doesn't exist ... Obviously japanese people don't exist either, otherwise how would they bow to each other.


Sadly for you, it does.


View PostBenMillard, on 25 January 2020 - 10:27 AM, said:

Oh, I see what you mean. Bowing on a spherical, rotating Earth would be impossible so this proves the Earth is flat and stationary.


Posted Image

Look at how far a human's center of mass moves during a bow.

Edited by Nightbird, 25 January 2020 - 12:34 PM.


#53 Prototelis

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:45 PM

Posted Image

Only possible on flat earth in flat BT universe.

Checkmate nerds.

#54 Dimento Graven

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:00 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 25 January 2020 - 12:45 PM, said:

Posted Image

Only possible on flat earth in flat BT universe.

Checkmate nerds.
LOL, funny, but yeah long been established that for that scene, the shoes were nailed into the floor...

#55 Prototelis

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:01 PM

Cool, I'm glad you got the joke.

#56 thievingmagpi

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:12 PM

I GOT SOME TINY A5S FEET IS THIS WHY I FALL OVER ALL THE TIME???

#57 Prototelis

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:29 PM

WELL YOU DID JUST ADMIT TO HAVING "*** FEET"

#58 Dimento Graven

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:58 PM

View PostPrototelis, on 25 January 2020 - 01:29 PM, said:

WELL YOU DID JUST ADMIT TO HAVING "*** FEET"
Wouldn't matter how large "***" feet were, it'd be damned impossible to have any grace or agility walking on *** all the time...

#59 OmniFail

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 05:16 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 25 January 2020 - 01:00 PM, said:

LOL, funny, but yeah long been established that for that scene, the shoes were nailed into the floor...


Whatever bro...

It was a giant magnet. Everybody knows that.

See how MJs right foot moves like a inch in the beginning?

Edited by OmniFail, 25 January 2020 - 05:17 PM.


#60 VonBruinwald

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 05:26 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 25 January 2020 - 09:39 AM, said:

Obviously gymnastics doesn't exist ... Obviously japanese people don't exist either, otherwise how would they bow to each other.


It's all in the bum, when people bow/bend down their behind moves further backwards. And it's all subconsciously done.

Try bowing...

Now try doing it with your heels against a wall....





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