50 replies to this topic

[CFC Conky]

FRAGTAST1C, on 06 February 2020 - 06:03 PM, said:

New player experience is bad 'cause players can't play WITH THEIR FRIENDS. How's that for a reason? Seriously, a MP game that doesn't let players drop into matches instantly with their friends....

^
This.

[Sniper09121986]

Zirconium Kaze, on 06 February 2020 - 10:20 PM, said:

call it Anarchy mode.

Well, I think we can call it https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Melee And yes, it would be totally hilarious

[justcallme A S H]

Humble Dexter, on 07 February 2020 - 04:58 AM, said:

Fixing QP :
- I'm in favor of switching QP from 12vs12 to 8vs8, to help better separate new players from the Tier 1 players.
- This change might also increase the amount of QP players switching to FP for the sake of playing 12vs12 matches.

8v8 or 12v12 has absolutely no bearing on 'separatation' of new players and Tier 1 players.

Player are already split by the Tier system. Tier 4/5 playes will never be in a match with Tier 1 players.

Humble Dexter, on 07 February 2020 - 04:58 AM, said:

Fixing FP :

- Change the FP MM : The MM should favor Group vs Group first, Solo vs Solo second, Group vs Solo third as a last resort, instead of always allowing groups to cut the line.

That is exactly how it works now.

As referenced earlier, you are one of those individuals spreading misinformation and misleading users.

Stop.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 07 February 2020 - 01:41 PM.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

justcallme A S H, on 07 February 2020 - 01:41 PM, said:

8v8 or 12v12 has absolutely no bearing on 'separatation' of new players and Tier 1 players.

The way I see it, it's a whole lot easier to gather 16 similar tiered players then 24. So Tier 5 matches will have less Tier 3 players in them, Tier 4 matches will have less Tier 2 players in it, and Tier 3 matches will have less Tier 1 players, with less queue time being a side effect. So switching to 8vs8 could have a HUGE positive impact on proper player separation.

justcallme A S H, on 07 February 2020 - 01:41 PM, said:

That is exactly how it works now.

No, you display the arrogant ignorance of a permanent group player...

THIS is exactly how the FP MM works :
- The queue slowly fills with almost a dozen players on each side, some who have been waiting for well over 10 minutes to launch a fun balanced solo vs solo match between them.
- A 12 man group shows up at the last minute, if not at the final countdown to launch, and the MM instantly gives it priority over everyone else, resulting in the MWO trademark group vs solo FP stomp for one team of solo players, and no match at all for the other team of solo players since the group that showed up just stole if from them.
- Then after that first group instantly launched, another group finally shows up, resulting in a second MWO trademark solo vs group FP stomp with the solo players who got stuck in the queue instead of launching their solo vs solo match. A full double fail for the MM.

And I'm saying that broken MM should have prioritized a solo vs solo match instead, to give time for that second group to show up and trigger a group vs group match, instead of that broken MM automatically launching one group vs solo match over another.

Current priority :
1) Group vs Group
2) Group vs Solo
3) Solo vs Solo only when no other option is available.

Wanted priority :
1) Group vs Group
2) Solo vs solo
3) Group vs Solo only when no other option is available.

And that would make a ridiculously HUGE impact on the piss-poor quality of the current FP matchmaking.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

^
lol

[justcallme A S H]

Humble Dexter, on 07 February 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

The way I see it, it's a whole lot easier to gather 16 similar tiered players then 24. So Tier 5 matches will have less Tier 3 players in them, Tier 4 matches will have less Tier 2 players in it, and Tier 3 matches will have less Tier 1 players, with less queue time being a side effect. So switching to 8vs8 could have a HUGE positive impact on proper player separation.

The majority of the playerbase is Tier 3 or above. So no, there won't be less because of population distribution among tiers.

You really don't have any idea do you?

Humble Dexter, on 07 February 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

No, you display the arrogant ignorance of a permanent group player...

If by arrogant you mean I am correct, then yes, I am correct. I have proven many times you lack understanding of basic/core gameplay mechanics within MWO.

I also drop Solo in FP plenty. Verifiable from my streams. Please refrain from making false statements. It does nothing for your already poor reputation.

Humble Dexter, on 07 February 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

Spoiler

THIS is exactly how the FP MM works :

- The queue slowly fills with almost a dozen players on each side, some who have been waiting for well over 10 minutes to launch a fun balanced solo vs solo match between them.

- A 12 man group shows up at the last minute, if not at the final countdown to launch, and the MM instantly gives it priority over everyone else, resulting in the MWO trademark group vs solo FP stomp for one team of solo players, and no match at all for the other team of solo players since the group that showed up just stole if from them.

- Then after that first group instantly launched, another group finally shows up, resulting in a second MWO trademark solo vs group FP stomp with the solo players who got stuck in the queue instead of launching their solo vs solo match. A full double fail for the MM.

And I'm saying that broken MM should have prioritized a solo vs solo match instead, to give time for that second group to show up and trigger a group vs group match, instead of that broken MM automatically launching one group vs solo match over another.

What you have just outlined is a scenario where the MM is unable to work.

Are you not able to discern the difference between what is hard-coded and what is a scenario?

Humble Dexter, on 07 February 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

Current priority :
1) Group vs Group
2) Group vs Solo
3) Solo vs Solo only when no other option is available.

Wanted priority :
1) Group vs Group
2) Solo vs solo
3) Group vs Solo only when no other option is available.

And that would make a ridiculously HUGE impact on the piss-poor quality of the current FP matchmaking.

That will have absolutely no tangible impact at all. Also your options of 1 & 2 are identical (do you even realise this?) and those two items are how the vast majority of matches made in Faction Play right now because that is how the Match Maker WORKS.

I think you truely do not understand how the Q works to be making the statements you are in this thread.

I would suggest you re-read all the information provided by PGI which clearly explains how it all works. After you have read it once, read it at least 6 more times, hopefully it will then sink in once and for all. All that LRMing has broken your brain champ.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 07 February 2020 - 04:36 PM.

[KanKrusha]

Is the NP experience bad or is there just a lot of other good games out there competing for players? This game competes pretty hard with WOT and War Thunder. I dropped out of MWO for a while for War Thunder because i could easily play with my son. I have come back because this game is more enjoyable than WT due to the longer time to die.

There is a little bit of toxicity on the forums but in game this is the least toxic game i have played with. Seems to be a lot of middle aged or older players in MWO which might make it uncool and unattractive for the younger crowd. Everyone put your weebo voice filters on mic

PS - I play solely for fun and almost entirely QP solo queue. Permanently stuck in Tier 5. Your experience may vary.

Edited by KanKrusha, 07 February 2020 - 05:27 PM.

[Anjian]

Sniper09121986, on 06 February 2020 - 11:37 AM, said:

This. The game is simply too unique for new players to have an idea what to do. It can only be loosely compared to Crossout or Robocraft. The idea itself is not that different from WoT or War Thunder, it is just that the players have to build their own machine, and until they figure out what works and how... you know what happens. Battletech or even MW5 are easier in that regard because the stock load-outs are more or less fine, but MWO is a very different matter.

That's also another issue. Games like WoT, War Thunder, World of Warships, MWO --- you all belong to a genre that is no longer a growth market. Maybe they were once in the 2010 to 2016 time span, but in recent years, there has been an ongoing disruption, revolution, change in the game industry right into the fundamentals. Russ wasn't wrong going single player storyline-RPG and coop with MW5.

Edited by Anjian, 07 February 2020 - 09:16 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Anjian, on 07 February 2020 - 09:15 PM, said:

Russ wasn't wrong going single player storyline-RPG and coop with MW5.

But apart for the single-player and co-op, there's no RPG. Everything is built for you. E.g.,? Ok....

1. You don't pick the skills you want to level up. You just sit in a mech with a specific loadout and your skills increase automatically. There's nothing unique about you or any of the 60-rated pilots. You're just a commander in name, nothing more.

2. Some mechs aren't worth the hassle at all. The Griffins, for e.g., Why bother using them? Again, the choice is removed. You find a Griffin, you sell, unless you're some stubborn, masochistic person to make use of LRM 10 and PPC. Same with the Assassin, Cicada, Urbanmechs, Spider, Vindicator, etc.,

3. Some mech chassis are so identical that different variants aren't needed at all.

4. Some mechs are limited by the restrictions of weapon type. I like the restrictions but it suffers 'cause all variants appear similar. Take the Mauler or the Annihilator for e.g., How is it that none of them can equip a large ballistic weapon? What'd have been wrong with allowing players to bring AC10s and AC20s on them?

5. In what way can you RP in missions? You take the side of the farmers against your own benefactor? You take the side of the one mining company over another? In what way did that define your character?

6. How 'bout the main quests themselves. How many of them were actually memorable and unique? 3? 5 maybe, out of 22 if you're being generous? How did you RP in them?

Now don't get me wrong. I do think MW5 is serviceable and there are good bits here and there. But if you're going to react to the changing environment in an industry, then you need people capable of making decisions about game design who aren't stubborn and don't have a bad case of confirmation bias. There is no way that a game designer who truly wanted to make a memorable game would've made all the side missions AND majority of the main missions similar in structure, for starters.

Edited by FRAGTAST1C, 08 February 2020 - 02:58 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Some things that I heard from new players I tried to introduce years ago where

Biggest points
- No small group play (2-3 people) / waiting forever to find a match
- Mechlab overwhelming
- Skilltree overwhelming

Medium points
- Dated graphics /art style not to their leiking
- Bad optimization (to hardware hungry)
- At the beginning grind seams endless

Small points
- Menues not accessible enough (I don't realy get that point but its what people told me)
- Lack of context AKA whats it all about? Why are we here, what do we do, why is there Clan and IS, why can't I mix the tech...etc.etc.etc

Edited by Nesutizale, 08 February 2020 - 03:14 AM.

[Anjian]

FRAGTAST1C, on 08 February 2020 - 02:55 AM, said:

But apart for the single-player and co-op, there's no RPG. Everything is built for you. E.g.,? Ok....

1. You don't pick the skills you want to level up. You just sit in a mech with a specific loadout and your skills increase automatically. There's nothing unique about you or any of the 60-rated pilots. You're just a commander in name, nothing more.

2. Some mechs aren't worth the hassle at all. The Griffins, for e.g., Why bother using them? Again, the choice is removed. You find a Griffin, you sell, unless you're some stubborn, masochistic person to make use of LRM 10 and PPC. Same with the Assassin, Cicada, Urbanmechs, Spider, Vindicator, etc.,

3. Some mech chassis are so identical that different variants aren't needed at all.

4. Some mechs are limited by the restrictions of weapon type. I like the restrictions but it suffers 'cause all variants appear similar. Take the Mauler or the Annihilator for e.g., How is it that none of them can equip a large ballistic weapon? What'd have been wrong with allowing players to bring AC10s and AC20s on them?

5. In what way can you RP in missions? You take the side of the farmers against your own benefactor? You take the side of the one mining company over another? In what way did that define your character?

6. How 'bout the main quests themselves. How many of them were actually memorable and unique? 3? 5 maybe, out of 22 if you're being generous? How did you RP in them?

Now don't get me wrong. I do think MW5 is serviceable and there are good bits here and there. But if you're going to react to the changing environment in an industry, then you need people capable of making decisions about game design who aren't stubborn and don't have a bad case of confirmation bias. There is no way that a game designer who truly wanted to make a memorable game would've made all the side missions AND majority of the main missions similar in structure, for starters.

There is no question Russ is correct in the direction where the industry is heading. What he and his company is weak at, is creativity and execution. But we already know he fails in that part.

He simply has no genius and talent for the games industry, period, and that extends to his cohorts.

[thievingmagpi]

WOWs does a lot of things poorly, but it does a few things really well.

Fun and interesting events are one of latter. MWO could've followed this idea with short, maybe 1 week per month/quarter, co-op/pve events. Get some nice loot from them (not just the usual cbills/mc, maybe event camos, warhorns etc). Things like recreations of lore events or just fun and unique things for players to do. Would satisfy the lore hungry mechdads, provide some interesting and refreshing gameplay once in a while, allow pgi time to work on new pvp game mechanics, help them develop better ai implementation etc. Could even have team leaderboards for events (fastest wipe etc etc). Have certain events be chassis/variant locked so it can only be run with certain mechs/builds etc (WOWs events are sometimes tier and country locked).

Those certainly aren't the best thing about WOWs, but it's something that keeps me logging in now and again, and is a nice break from boring *** quickplay matches.


WOWs also has the little solo/co-op training grounds, something MWO never bothered with. Sure, the enemy ship AI isn't great, but it's still there, and it still moves and shoots back. I'll jump into one of these matches if I haven't played in a while and can't remember the controls, if I just buy a new ship and want to test its speed/ROF, or if I just want to kamikaze right into the enemy with a DD and see how long I last. One or two matches of these are fun in between regular pve. *And* you get reward for it, they're minimal compared to regular matches, but rewards nonetheless.


I'd say both those systems can be useful for new players to learn. Hell, I'd go so far as to say some of the events were even a bit tricky for decent players.


Certainly lots of bad changes and ideas have been implemented in WOWs (I haven't played the new sub stuff) but what they've demonstrated at the least is a willingness to engage their players.

[Sniper09121986]

FRAGTAST1C, on 08 February 2020 - 02:55 AM, said:

You find a Griffin, you sell, unless you're some stubborn, masochistic person to make use of LRM 10 and PPC. Same with the Assassin, Cicada, Urbanmechs, Spider, Vindicator, etc.,

Guilty as pronounced. I role-play stock mechs and have a lot of fun on a Vindi. Yes, Urbie is too slow even for me, but the rest is fine.

FRAGTAST1C, on 08 February 2020 - 02:55 AM, said:

You take the side of the farmers against your own benefactor? You take the side of the one mining company over another? In what way did that define your character?

Yep, I took the side of the farmers with a damn not given about this benefactor. Because screw it, that's why

[martian]

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

WOWs does a lot of things poorly, but it does a few things really well.

Fun and interesting events are one of latter. MWO could've followed this idea with short, maybe 1 week per month/quarter, co-op/pve events.

I remember such MWO challenges. One of them lasted ... dunno ... 15 days? You had to play about 13 days (of your choice) of those 15 days.

MWO players complained that such challenge is too long and that they actually have to play MWO instead of being awarded prizes for free.

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

Get some nice loot from them (not just the usual cbills/mc, maybe event camos, warhorns etc).

The aforementioned challenge awarded a Hero 'Mech as the prize.

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

Things like recreations of lore events or just fun and unique things for players to do.

Yes, we have had two Battle of Tukayyid events and they were total disasters. I have four event flags somewhere (B. of Tukayyid participant, B. of Tukayyid victory, B. of Tukayyid most valuable faction, Clan Wolf banner). Whenever I see those flags, I laugh how low-rez they are and how little effort PGI put in them.

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

Would satisfy the lore hungry mechdads, provide some interesting and refreshing gameplay once in a while, allow pgi time to work on new pvp game mechanics, help them develop better ai implementation etc.

I guess that you have probably noticed that there is "zero" lore in MWO ... This is not going to change.

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

Could even have team leaderboards for events (fastest wipe etc etc).

Yes, the Battle of Tukayyid event had leaderboards for groups and maybe for single players too (I can not remember).

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

Have certain events be chassis/variant locked so it can only be run with certain mechs/builds etc (WOWs events are sometimes tier and country locked).

Yes, we have had such challenges that "forced" players to use certain 'Mechs. Such 'Mechs were the primary target of everyone else and those 'Mechs were usually destroyed in mere seconds after the enemy team spotted them.

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

Those certainly aren't the best thing about WOWs, but it's something that keeps me logging in now and again, and is a nice break from boring *** quickplay matches.

You should play the Community Warfare. I remember Russ Bullock saying that the CW is the endgame of MWO or something. But when I am thinking about it, you are not going to find much lore in CW. Zero, actually.

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

WOWs also has the little solo/co-op training grounds, something MWO never bothered with. Sure, the enemy ship AI isn't great, but it's still there, and it still moves and shoots back. I'll jump into one of these matches if I haven't played in a while and can't remember the controls, if I just buy a new ship and want to test its speed/ROF, or if I just want to kamikaze right into the enemy with a DD and see how long I last. One or two matches of these are fun in between regular pve. *And* you get reward for it, they're minimal compared to regular matches, but rewards nonetheless.

MWO has its Academy.

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

I'd say both those systems can be useful for new players to learn. Hell, I'd go so far as to say some of the events were even a bit tricky for decent players.

Yeah, for example the current challenge with its requirement of taking unskilled 'Mechs with obsolete loadouts has been a bit tricky - especially that part when I have been killstealed about a dozen times.

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

Certainly lots of bad changes and ideas have been implemented in WOWs (I haven't played the new sub stuff) but what they've demonstrated at the least is a willingness to engage their players.

Willingness to engage MWO players is a small weakness of PGI.

Actually, only Matt Newman still remembers that MWO and its players do exist.

By the way, do you know that we have no Community Manager anymore?

[thievingmagpi]

Yeah, I wasn't really talking about Tukayyid. Those were all just rewards for playing the game normally and nothing like the events in WOWs

Nor does the MWO Academy have AI and PVE.

So what you said wasn't really relevant tbh

Edited by thievingmagpi, 08 February 2020 - 01:40 PM.

[martian]

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 01:38 PM, said:

So what you said wasn't really relevant tbh

You started with it.

Or do you really believe that PGI is going to implement any thing that you suggested?

[thievingmagpi]

Edited by thievingmagpi, 08 February 2020 - 01:53 PM.

[Xiphias]

Eatit, on 06 February 2020 - 07:19 AM, said:

Why is the current NPE causing them to leave?

Look at this thread for an answer: https://mwomercs.com...-does-not-work/

This has been a consistent problem since the beginning. There are a lot of complicated systems that are not well explained, documented, or introduced. Players get throw into it headfirst without clear guidance and have a bad time as a result. Even if they understand what to do, getting locked out behind a wall of grind deters new players.

Couple in a small population, this leads to new players without a good understanding of the game, stuck in subpar mechs (trials, unskilled, bad builds, etc.) going against veteran players in min-maxed builds and it doesn't make for a fun experience for many people.

Back when there were more people active, there were a lot of groups that people could join to play with who could help show them the ropes and make it easier (good players could carry new ones and help ease them in). If I hadn't joined a group back when I was relatively new at the game I'm sure I wouldn't be nearly as good of a player and I probably wouldn't have stuck with the game as long as I have. Groups make the game fun and give people a reason to stay around and keep playing.

Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons some within PGIs control and some out. Most of the groups that used to play this game have moved on. Group queue is pretty much dead and even if you could get a match, it's not a place for new players. Solo isn't going to help players really learn much. Solaris is a grinder. The only real place for learning while playing in a group now is faction play, and that has a significant barrier for entry with the requirement to join a unit and the need to set up somewhat competent drop decks.

There aren't good avenues left for new players to become experienced players, so short of a few players who are willing to tough it out and stay around until they learn the ropes, most new players are going try it out. End up losing a lot, get bored and move on to something else.

[Prototelis]

^This man writes the only short form essays on this forum anyone should ever read.

[Anjian]

thievingmagpi, on 08 February 2020 - 10:22 AM, said:

WOWs does a lot of things poorly, but it does a few things really well.

Fun and interesting events are one of latter. MWO could've followed this idea with short, maybe 1 week per month/quarter, co-op/pve events. Get some nice loot from them (not just the usual cbills/mc, maybe event camos, warhorns etc). Things like recreations of lore events or just fun and unique things for players to do. Would satisfy the lore hungry mechdads, provide some interesting and refreshing gameplay once in a while, allow pgi time to work on new pvp game mechanics, help them develop better ai implementation etc. Could even have team leaderboards for events (fastest wipe etc etc). Have certain events be chassis/variant locked so it can only be run with certain mechs/builds etc (WOWs events are sometimes tier and country locked).

Those certainly aren't the best thing about WOWs, but it's something that keeps me logging in now and again, and is a nice break from boring *** quickplay matches.


WOWs also has the little solo/co-op training grounds, something MWO never bothered with. Sure, the enemy ship AI isn't great, but it's still there, and it still moves and shoots back. I'll jump into one of these matches if I haven't played in a while and can't remember the controls, if I just buy a new ship and want to test its speed/ROF, or if I just want to kamikaze right into the enemy with a DD and see how long I last. One or two matches of these are fun in between regular pve. *And* you get reward for it, they're minimal compared to regular matches, but rewards nonetheless.


I'd say both those systems can be useful for new players to learn. Hell, I'd go so far as to say some of the events were even a bit tricky for decent players.


Certainly lots of bad changes and ideas have been implemented in WOWs (I haven't played the new sub stuff) but what they've demonstrated at the least is a willingness to engage their players.

You forgot the biggest difference between WoWs and MWO, or more like Wargaming vs. PGI, is that Wargaming actually cares about quality.