201 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

It doesn't matter what your build is. Doesn't matter what range you engage at. If at the end of a match you are fresh and your buddies are dead it means you haven't been aggressive enough. Your armor is a resource, use it. If you don't you are deliberately decreasing your team win probability.

[Kotzi]

Well either making measly spread damage far away from your team or using the tonnage for more, faster damage and sticking to your team shooting the mech sections they are already shooting at, thus killing things faster, distracting the enemy and distributing the incoming damage to let your team stay in the fight longer with their full damage potential. Hm, hard to say...

I mean, in any other shooter, a sniper is someone who does an insane amount of damage in a short time. If you would carry a gauss or two that would be ok, but 2 large lasers that do dot damage? If anyone is afraid of that in this game, piloting armored mechs, than they might wanna play something else. But then again i havent played for a long time and in SQ there are people getting shot in the back without even reacting...

Edited by Kotzi, 05 March 2020 - 03:21 AM.

[Vellron2005]

_Magno_, on 04 March 2020 - 11:11 AM, said:

I recently picked up a Cicada-3M.
G-ECM
2x ERLL
Increased engine

Max range, cooldown skills
Max sensors
Some mobility
Some armor buff

I take some time to move on the outside, spotting for our LRM buddies, communicate movements
Snipe legs, etc.

This works great on some maps, on the smaller maps its a bit of a challenge.

If I constantly fire and have above 90% hit rate, the average damage output is about 500

I've frequently been hearing on those games that go South, like on Mining Collective or Canyonlands Domination NASCAR, "You shouldn't be off on the sides, you should have been sharing armor with us!"

Lol. My buddy got told the same thing in his Shadowcat.

I tried explaining that isn't a good use of fast movers.

Confusing the enemy and getting them to turn their back's on the front line while having a fuller view of the field and providing scout information seems to be a better use of ......lpw armor, fast sniper mechs.

If I roll up in my Roughneck or Griffin brawlers, sure, I'll share armor all match.
If I roll up with my LRM 70 WHM-IIc assault, I will also share armor and get my own locks.

Even my Wolfhound I'll share armor.

Not gonna hang out front line or 2nd line with a Cicada, Shadowcat.

With a Piranah, I'll share armor by being right next to the enemies trying to run circles around them.

Again, why would you ever front line or 2nd line with a 127kph, low armor 2x ERLL mech?

Some tryhards will always tell you to share armor, because they don't like it when enemies shoot at them instead of you. This is normal, and sadly, there's nothing you can do about that, except flatly ignore it.

Lurmers get this alot. We understand.

But if you do your thing, and you're good at it, and you're not just scratching at the enemy but actually do solid damage and control the enemy's movements with your fire.. you're doing it right.. so keep doing what you do.

Play the game your way.

Also, keep in mind that in a game where you can literally go from 100% not a scratch on you to dead in 3 seconds, armor sharing is just a myth that tryhards want you to believe so you can be their cannon fodder.

Edited by Vellron2005, 05 March 2020 - 04:05 AM.

[Gen Lee]

Vellron2005, on 05 March 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:

Some tryhards will always tell you to share armor, because they don't like it when enemies shoot at them instead of you. This is normal, and sadly, there's nothing you can do about that, except flatly ignore it.

Lurmers get this alot. We understand.

But if you do your thing, and you're good at it, and you're not just scratching at the enemy but actually do solid damage and control the enemy's movements with your fire.. you're doing it right.. so keep doing what you do.

Play the game your way.

Also, keep in mind that in a game where you can literally go from 100% not a scratch on you to dead in 3 seconds, armor sharing is just a myth that tryhards want you to believe so you can be their cannon fodder.

If you go from 100% health to dead in 3 seconds at any point during the match, then usually it's because you made a mistake. I've died in just a few seconds because I fell off a ledge by accident or something like that, exposing me to a bunch of enemies who then focused their fire on me. Most players will make a mistake sooner or later, some more than others.

As for using LRMs and not getting damaged, if you're nowhere near the fight and you're just sitting around somewhere where nobody can see you, trying to leech locks and not landing a lot of your missiles, you're part of the problem. With the changes they've made to LRMs, if you are far away from the fight and trying to lock onto enemies using IDF, chances are your many of your missiles aren't going to be hitting their targets by the time they get there, if you can even manage to lock onto the target to begin with.

[_Magno_]

Prototelis, on 04 March 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

A waste of one of the best skirmishers in the game, and equally dumb as dropping a 2erll light in QP.

I'm not taking the Crab as ERLL build. I take it as AMS, ECM and MLs and skirmish with it.

Prototelis, on 04 March 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

The wolfhound I posted has greater sustained and burst DPS, a 10% range quirk (basically a free TC6), far greater survivability, better hitboxes, and is more than fast enough to play kiteyman long range from the side.

It's basically better than a 2erll cicada in every possible way.

I know. I have 2 Wolfhounds. I know many folks here are all about full force power gaming, but some of us also play from place of trying things out, exploring and not worrying about our ranks or KD ratios.

Prototelis, on 04 March 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

This thread is 100% about how effective a 2erll cicada is.

From you're perspective, I'm sure you're convinced its only about this.
But I started the post with a particular context, you're forcing it to be limited to only one thing.

Prototelis, on 04 March 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

Protip; It isn't effective at all.

Generally no. Situationally, it has been. I've had a few games with 400-500 damage, that have stopped NASCARs and have provided distractions for teammates to also be more effective.
I've also had games where a Piranah owns me before I get off 2-3 shots.

Prototelis, on 04 March 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

Please don't run that in FP. It's a waste of tonnage.

Nope. I won't. After a good 20 games with this Mech, I have other 40 tonners that would be better in FP.

Prototelis, on 04 March 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

The argument is the mech isn't effective, even if you plan on taking zimbabwe shots. If you want to shoot from zimbabwe in a small fast mech take the wolfhound or a panther and actually do it worth a ****.

No. The original post I presented was;
While players are in low armor, fast moving sniper mechs, front lining for health pooling isn't a good idea.
The argument is further justified if you are in a low tier build like a Cicada 3L with 2x ERLL.

Lets try this argument with whatever amazing fast sniper, low armor mechs is out there.

Should you then ALWAYS go up the ramp together? Should you always crowd through the canyon walls "health pooling"?
If so, then why bother EVER building a sniper build or fast mover? The game then converges to a single build, speed style.
If so, then the discussion is very much NOT about the effectiveness of the Cicada-3L and about the original post.

[VonBruinwald]

_Magno_, on 05 March 2020 - 05:35 AM, said:

No. The original post I presented was;
While players are in low armor, fast moving sniper mechs, front lining for health pooling isn't a good idea.
The argument is further justified if you are in a low tier build like a Cicada 3L with 2x ERLL.

Lets try this argument with whatever amazing fast sniper, low armor mechs is out there.

Should you then ALWAYS go up the ramp together? Should you always crowd through the canyon walls "health pooling"?
If so, then why bother EVER building a sniper build or fast mover? The game then converges to a single build, speed style.
If so, then the discussion is very much NOT about the effectiveness of the Cicada-3L and about the original post.

In Proto's defence (and I don't want to make a habit of defending him) half your opening post was regarding your Cicada's performance. Which is fine, you were going for context but some people don't understand how context works.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

_Magno_, on 05 March 2020 - 05:35 AM, said:

Lets try this argument with whatever amazing fast sniper, low armor mechs is out there.

Should you then ALWAYS go up the ramp together? Should you always crowd through the canyon walls "health pooling"?
If so, then why bother EVER building a sniper build or fast mover? The game then converges to a single build, speed style.
If so, then the discussion is very much NOT about the effectiveness of the Cicada-3L and about the original post.

short answer: if you wanna win, or in other words "do the thing that shifts the win-probability to your side as far as you can",
you should NOT bring a "sniper" light/med to QP. EVER. it's a waste of time, effort and not as effective as a proper QP-mech, ever.

if you have fun with it and you "just wanna have fun", at the expense of the other 23 in the match, go ahead and do that. short from a TK, nobody can stop you doing that.
expect some to go that 'extra mile', and if they do it: sorry bud, but just like the lurmleeches you then had it coming

[FRAGTAST1C]

_Magno_, on 05 March 2020 - 05:35 AM, said:

Should you then ALWAYS go up the ramp together? Should you always crowd through the canyon walls "health pooling"?
If so, then why bother EVER building a sniper build or fast mover? The game then converges to a single build, speed style.
If so, then the discussion is very much NOT about the effectiveness of the Cicada-3L and about the original post.

The better question is, "Should you remain at a distance scratching the enemies when your teammates are getting steamrolled?"

[Brauer]

_Magno_, on 05 March 2020 - 05:35 AM, said:

I'm not taking the Crab as ERLL build. I take it as AMS, ECM and MLs and skirmish with it.



I know. I have 2 Wolfhounds. I know many folks here are all about full force power gaming, but some of us also play from place of trying things out, exploring and not worrying about our ranks or KD ratios.



From you're perspective, I'm sure you're convinced its only about this.
But I started the post with a particular context, you're forcing it to be limited to only one thing.



Generally no. Situationally, it has been. I've had a few games with 400-500 damage, that have stopped NASCARs and have provided distractions for teammates to also be more effective.
I've also had games where a Piranah owns me before I get off 2-3 shots.



Nope. I won't. After a good 20 games with this Mech, I have other 40 tonners that would be better in FP.



No. The original post I presented was;
While players are in low armor, fast moving sniper mechs, front lining for health pooling isn't a good idea.
The argument is further justified if you are in a low tier build like a Cicada 3L with 2x ERLL.

Lets try this argument with whatever amazing fast sniper, low armor mechs is out there.

Should you then ALWAYS go up the ramp together? Should you always crowd through the canyon walls "health pooling"?
If so, then why bother EVER building a sniper build or fast mover? The game then converges to a single build, speed style.
If so, then the discussion is very much NOT about the effectiveness of the Cicada-3L and about the original post.

400 to 500 damage is not a good game or a sign of an effective mech. That's around the minimum level of damage to show that you contributed to your team. So if on a good game you hold your own, but on many others you contribute very little it's not a terribly good sign.

[John Bronco]

I'm all for having fun, but I'm also all for helping my team win, so I try to use mechs that allow me to do both.

Multiple different builds and speeds have been suggested to you that eould be fun and effective.

And if long range trading is you preferred playstyle you can go wild in faction play (but again, not with a 2xERL cicada).

[Acid_Rain]

Brauer, on 05 March 2020 - 07:38 AM, said:

400 to 500 damage is not a good game or a sign of an effective mech. That's around the minimum level of damage to show that you contributed to your team. So if on a good game you hold your own, but on many others you contribute very little it's not a terribly good sign.

That is not true. I've seen some of the top guys only get 350-400 in solid wins. If everyone is pulling their weight and killing things fast you are just not going to put up huge numbers.

[letir]

"Harassing" in term of QP dosen't mean "be annoying bug without any real DPS to speak of".

When i'm playing my double LPL Shadow Cat, i''m well aware that my firepower is pitiful, so i'm trying to be useful in different ways. I'm trying to scout on open maps, i'm trying to cover my murderball with ECM on closed maps, i'm taking ledges, i'm trying to add focus with my pinpoint damage.

And i'm never afraid to take some damage as well, if it helps to distract enemies better. I'm not afraid to take some shots from Annihilator if it needed to make him slow down and pay attention to me. I will not turn opportunity to attack distracted heavy in the back, even if it means to get close and personal.

Using innefective super long range loadouts (like double LPPC on Flea) and being "undamaged sniper" is not effective in QP. You must be ready to get dirty yourself when necessary.

[Brauer]

Acid_Rain, on 05 March 2020 - 08:06 AM, said:

That is not true. I've seen some of the top guys only get 350-400 in solid wins. If everyone is pulling their weight and killing things fast you are just not going to put up huge numbers.

2erll doesn't kill anything fast. I know there can be exceptions, in say comp, but in QP unless it's an absolute stomp 400-500 is pretty much just carrying your weight, not driving a win.

[Prototelis]

_Magno_, on 05 March 2020 - 05:35 AM, said:

From you're perspective, I'm sure you're convinced its only about this.
But I started the post with a particular context, you're forcing it to be limited to only one thing.

The context of this thread is you asking if poking people with a 2erll is effective.

It isn't.

It isn't an effective harasser. It isn't a good use of health pooling because it can't do damage.

/thread

Vellron2005, on 05 March 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:

Some tryhards will always tell you to share armor, because they don't like it when enemies shoot at them instead of you. This is normal, and sadly, there's nothing you can do about that, except flatly ignore it.

Token response from dude that hides in the back all match, refuses to move up, then vehemently blames the team for not playing the game hard enough for him.

Edited by Prototelis, 05 March 2020 - 09:55 AM.

[K O Z A K]

Vellron2005, on 05 March 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:

Some tryhards will always tell you to share armor, because they don't like it when enemies shoot at them instead of you. This is normal, and sadly, there's nothing you can do about that, except flatly ignore it.

Also, keep in mind that in a game where you can literally go from 100% not a scratch on you to dead in 3 seconds, armor sharing is just a myth that tryhards want you to believe so you can be their cannon fodder.

hypocrisy lvl80, your entire gameplay revolves around you making sure everyone is shooting your teammates but not you

[Kubernetes]

It seems like everyone who drives one of these low-alpha, long-range fast movers vastly overestimates their impact. In particular, they like to think they're making some huge impact on morale and movement by sniping from range. This is delusional ego-tripping.

I'm keeping my head down if there's a Direwolf boating AC2/UAC2 way out in the distance. But a 2ERLL Cheetah or this Cicada build? C'mon. The build itself tells me the player is probably not very good, so chances are slim he's going to able keep a full burn on my rear torso from 800m. At most he'll swipe across my entire mech a couple times before I rotate out of his sight line.

This idea of doing ineffectual damage but applying "Psychological Impact!" is dumb. We know this game. We know how much damage weapons actually do. A Cicada throwing two blue beams at me every 4 seconds is very low on the list of things I'm worried about in a match.

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Most players who complain about fast mechs not “sharing armor” are themselves assaults who refuse to assault and tell you to push while they hide behind cover. Eff them.

[Prototelis]

Most people complaining about assaults not assaulting don't understand how to play assaults.

Again, sharing armor is a dumb term which most people equate to "eating **** for no reason."

If I'm harassing the **** out of people with a 20 tonner I am health pooling, the goal is not to eat **** because I have like no armor.

[MTier Slayed Up]

In regards to the topic...

Short answer - Situational.

Long answer - I'm not going to take a ranged build front line just to get smoked.

[Acid_Rain]

Brauer, on 05 March 2020 - 08:40 AM, said:

2erll doesn't kill anything fast. I know there can be exceptions, in say comp, but in QP unless it's an absolute stomp 400-500 is pretty much just carrying your weight, not driving a win.

I'm not saying anything regarding the effectiveness or lack thereof of erlls.

With respect to damage, 400-500, is more than just carrying your weight. I'd say most folks in games i've played seem to be getting 200-300, and 1 or 2 people per match score 600+, the rest somewhere in the middle. Being in the right spot, capturing the attention of the enemy, getting fast kills, etc. is what will win the game over pure high damage numbers. I've had some base rushes end with a win and 120 being the most damage done by anyone.