201 replies to this topic

[OmniFail]

Prototelis, on 06 March 2020 - 01:24 PM, said:

Uh, yes, Health pool is still directly related to firepower.

If those mechs are stripped it is because they have low available health pool. lol.

If either team had health pooled more effectively they would likely still have weapons or greater numbers.

What you are describing alone is generally incredibly rare, because most players understand the value health pooling.

Or maybe they did not make better use of their fire power .

But it is true my proposed scenario is rare indeed.

[Prototelis]

OmniFail, on 06 March 2020 - 01:41 PM, said:

Or maybe they did not make better use of their fire power .

Most likely because they weren't health pooling correctly and were unable to fight attrition well enough.

[OmniFail]

Prototelis, on 06 March 2020 - 01:46 PM, said:

Most likely because they weren't health pooling correctly and were unable to fight attrition well enough.

No... no...

They most likely did not communicate as a team and call targets and team movements. This is the most likely scenario based on experience. Almost no one ever calls for armor pooling and when they do it is because like you say some one is in the great outback of the map thinking they can make a difference from their poorly chosen position that diminishes their ability to focus fire with the rest of the team.

[Nearly Dead]

If people move as a team and focus on called targets, that kind of takes care of "armor sharing" and all those side issues.

[Brauer]

OmniFail, on 06 March 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

No... no...

They most likely did not communicate as a team and call targets and team movements. This is the most likely scenario based on experience. Almost no one ever calls for armor pooling and when they do it is because like you say some one is in the great outback of the map thinking they can make a difference from their poorly chosen position that diminishes their ability to focus fire with the rest of the team.

I mean calling for fresh mechs to cycle to the front is making a call related to health pooling. I'm not saying that's likely to work in the chaos that is QP, but it is an important practice in more organized settings and can help cored out mechs stay in the fight dealing damage longer.

I don't really care to be involved in this broader argument, but do keep in mind that you can (and should) seek to cycle armor in addition to focusing targets, and coordinating movement.

Nearly Dead, on 06 March 2020 - 02:58 PM, said:

If people move as a team and focus on called targets, that kind of takes care of "armor sharing" and all those side issues.

Not always, it's not uncommon for people to not cycle fresh mechs to the front.

[OmniFail]

You guys call it cycling but it is really running away when you are shot up and cannot really be described as sharing so much as hoping that the enemy will focus fire on other targets.

[Horseman]

OmniFail, on 06 March 2020 - 03:06 PM, said:

You guys call it cycling but it is really running away when you are shot up and cannot really be described as sharing so much as hoping that the enemy will focus fire on other targets.

Your team does not get an advantage out of you dying. Switching with fresher mechs lets you continue to contribute your firepower and hopefully destroy more opponents.

[Prototelis]

OmniFail, on 06 March 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

No... no...

They most likely did not communicate

Yes Yes.

Adequate health pooling actually requires little or no communication.

[Brauer]

OmniFail, on 06 March 2020 - 03:06 PM, said:

You guys call it cycling but it is really running away when you are shot up and cannot really be described as sharing so much as hoping that the enemy will focus fire on other targets.

Or you know fresh mechs moving up front while still shooting and nearly dead mechs drifting to the back and shooting whenever possible. You can cycle back without running away or being completely out of the fight...

[OmniFail]

I think that we should petition the mods to merge this thread with the "ARE "CAMPERS" THE NEW "LURMERS"?" thread and rename the whole thing Stage 1 Cancer.

[Prototelis]

He can't attack the ideas, so he attacks another thread.

[OmniFail]

Prototelis, on 06 March 2020 - 09:39 PM, said:

He can't attack the ideas, so he attacks another thread.

I learned it from you Mechdad!

[Prototelis]

Please sir, you're the one resorting to changing the topic because you're losing an argument badly lol.

[OmniFail]

Losing the argument?

ORLY?

How so?

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 06 March 2020 - 09:53 PM, said:

Please sir, you're the one resorting to changing the topic because you're losing an argument badly lol.

"Health pooling" is armour sharing, you simply changed the term because you want to be an FW elitist. You need to play more QP, the same concepts apply.

Armour sharing doesn't directly contribute to killing enemy mechs, it indirectly affects their ability to kill enemy mechs.

You can armour share with no weapons, you can drop strikes, launch uavs, spot for lurms/poptarts, body block movements and draw all kinds of aggro without firing a shot (I do recognise in FW you can just eject and take a fresh 'mech to keep shooting (this directly affects your performance on the score board whereas armour sharing does not)).

It takes one team to Nascar.

Kubernetes, on 06 March 2020 - 08:25 AM, said:

I can't believe you morons are still fighting over this.

"The weave pattern is over, under, over, under."
"No its not you idiot it's under, over, under, over."

You've clearly never done cross-stitch.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 07 March 2020 - 05:18 AM.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 07 March 2020 - 04:53 AM, said:

"Health pooling" is armour sharing,

Armor sharing is, as OP described it, eating **** for no reason.

Health pooling is a related concept, but it is not eating **** for no reason.

Stripped/weaponless mechs are not effective at health pooling. In most cases they cannot return fire, and they are either about to die anyways or will be ignored.

Stripped/weaponless mechs are an example of not health pooling properly.

Edited by Prototelis, 07 March 2020 - 11:59 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 11:57 AM, said:

Armor sharing is, as OP described it, eating **** for no reason.

Health pooling is a related concept, but it is not eating **** for no reason.

It's the same thing.

You're attempting to sub-divide it based on how well it's executed. It's not a Nascar unless the whole team are rotating counter-clockwise, it's a heavy flanking manoeuvre. It's not sniping unless you do it with ppfld weapons and have an alpha of at least 20, it's harassing. It's not pod-racing unless you're on Tatooine, it's a dogfight against the trade federation....

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 07 March 2020 - 01:22 PM, said:

It's the same thing.

No, it is not. Health pooling doesn't require eating **** for no reason.

99% of the time someone in a QP match asks you to share armor is because they are eating **** for no reason, and would like you to move up and eat more **** for no reason. This is in practice what sharing armor means in this community.

Health pooling, while it shares some of the same elements, is distinct in that the goal is to share aggro without eating ****. It includes other aspects like effective harassment without eating ****, drawing aggro/mechs away from the enemy team/primary engagement, and seeking to present more targets than you are presented with.

A 20 damage laser alpha from range is not effective harassing, it's a waste of everyone's time because it is inconsequential spread damage.

The entire premise if the thread is OP asking if he should move up to share armor, a situation he like most of the community, describes as eating **** for no reason.

Edited by Prototelis, 07 March 2020 - 01:39 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 01:36 PM, said:

No, it is not. Armour sharing doesn't require eating **** for no reason.

99% of the time someone in a QP match asks you to share armor is because they are eating **** for no reason, and would like you to move up and eat more **** for no reason. This is in practice what sharing armor means in this community.

Health pooling, while it shares some of the same elements, is distinct in that the goal is to share aggro without eating ****. It includes other aspects like effective harassment without eating ****, drawing aggro/mechs away from the enemy team/primary engagement, and seeking to present more targets than you are presented with.

Again, you're attempting to divide it based on being done and being done well.

When someone says share armour, they're not saying to literally stand there and get shot in their place, that's how you interpret it. If someone gets shot up they don't expect other people to get shot for them, what they expect is other people to draw aggro so they can expose without being killed.

Prototelis, on 07 March 2020 - 01:36 PM, said:

The entire premise if the thread is OP asking if he should move up to share armor, a situation he like most of the community, describes as eating **** for no reason.

His entire premise is asking why should he share armour in a sniper build when he's better suited to other tasks. He actually does share armour and gave several example mechs he does this in. Do you really think he just stands there in a Wolfhound taking hits, or is he poking and drawing aggro.

[Prototelis]

VonBruinwald, on 07 March 2020 - 02:32 PM, said:

Again, you're attempting to divide it based on being done and being done well.

Again, no I am not. The distinction I am making is not eating **** for no reason.

The simplest way to explain the two concepts;

Armor sharing is supporting dumb pusha pusha.

Health pooling is dividing aggro in attempt to preserve as much firepower as possible.