15 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

I don't play this game anymore, but I watch news about it. I saw that "return of 8 vs 8" news and already wanted to return, only to see, that it was for group queue only. Why not for QP? IMHO implementation of 12 vs 12 and 4x3 were two big mistakes, that caused quality of matches drop. IS vs Clan imbalance was 3rd one.

12 vs 12 caused bigger deathball effect and decreased importance of each player.

4x3 forced weight rules instead of MMR ones. And all that forced Lights/Mediums, that brought
rushing, pointless large empty maps and ruined slower and more strategical gameplay.

And release of Clans is simple - it just brought some OP 'Mechs, that have big fast engines by default without any ST-death penalties and have much more hardpoints. Sometimes crazy amounts. No tuning can fix such imbalance.

[Captain Caveman DE]

...

[justcallme A S H]

MrMadguy, on 20 April 2020 - 02:34 AM, said:

IS vs Clan imbalance was 3rd one.

Ok...

I'll bite.

What... "imbalance" do you speak of, exactly?

[Davegt27]

OP I always want to hear from players that played back in 8v8 days

so I can understand why they think 12v12 was a bad idea

in 8v8 the weight of each player would be more important

I just assume the greater number of players back in the day was the main reason for going 12v12?

pgi would be able to push a greater number of players through matches in a short period of time

the problem with that is the emphases changes from match quality to pure numbers

I sort of understand the Clan vs IS thing since I started in June 2014

I remember the 1st unscheduled Clan vs IS match up and we won
man you felt like you really did something
but man the tears lol

Edited by Davegt27, 20 April 2020 - 03:42 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

justcallme A S H, on 20 April 2020 - 03:28 AM, said:

Ok...

I'll bite.

What... "imbalance" do you speak of, exactly?

Quirks?

[Imperius]

I’m logging in just to say too late. It’s dead jim. Should have been implemented when I pushed for it years ago.

[VonBruinwald]

Sniper09121986, on 20 April 2020 - 03:43 AM, said:

Quirks?

Quirks are there to balance to the ClanTech imbalance. And a bit of flavour...

Unfortunately a lot of IS 'mechs are sorely lacking the quirks necessary to make them viable against Clanners, and a few go too far.

What this means is whenever someone suggest bumping IS tech to parity the counter argument becomes "this one mech with this one particular quirk is now superior to muh tech-crutch" (never mind the other 217 IS mechs currently underperforming).

Balancing the tech needs to be done on a fundamental level, but this will never be done because of clan powerplay; sorry "lore-reasons". Quirks are a band-aid.

[K O Z A K]

VonBruinwald, on 20 April 2020 - 10:24 AM, said:

Quirks are there to balance to the ClanTech imbalance. And a bit of flavour...

Unfortunately a lot of IS 'mechs are sorely lacking the quirks necessary to make them viable against Clanners, and a few go too far.

What this means is whenever someone suggest bumping IS tech to parity the counter argument becomes "this one mech with this one particular quirk is now superior to muh tech-crutch" (never mind the other 217 IS mechs currently underperforming).

Balancing the tech needs to be done on a fundamental level, but this will never be done because of clan powerplay; sorry "lore-reasons". Quirks are a band-aid.

you make it sound like all clan mechs are super duper OP meta

there are plenty of great IS and Clan mechs, AND there are plenty of terrible IS AND Clan mechs

[VonBruinwald]

Hazeclaw, on 20 April 2020 - 11:03 AM, said:

you make it sound like all clan mechs are super duper OP meta

there are plenty of great IS and Clan mechs, AND there are plenty of terrible IS AND Clan mechs

The majority of those great IS mechs are because they've been quirked so.

The terrible Clan mechs are far fewer, and yet still better above the worst IS mechs. BLanner being the mainstay.

[K O Z A K]

Whether people like it or not quirks are part of the game, there's no point looking at the "tech bases" without quirks, that's like saying clan heavies would be **** if they couldn't boat weapons, while true it's a meaningless statement. There are a lot more IS mechs overall, hence there are more bad IS mechs. And clan has omnimechs many of which start out just as terrible as IS mechs but you can reconfigure them to be w/e you want.

Honestly I don't even know what the huge disparity is today. Most of it used to be the clan XL engine, which got wrecked by the nerf that led to you basically blowing up or shutting down with a side torso loss.

Clan has around 10kph speed advantage, clan has better cooling and smaller weapons and equipment, a range advantage in the medium range bracket

IS has a durability advantage, better defensive geometry, an agility advantage, IS has shorter burns, higher velocity, and more pinpoint

When playing FP which is literally the only place clan/IS balance matters both sides seem very evenly matched overall

BLanner is garbage, it has the capability of a light mech in a fat 55 ton package

[Tarl Cabot]

1. Remove the isXL death by single ST, while giving LFE, cXL and isXL different percentage levels.
2. Omnimech - slight agility buff due to locked engines. I am a spheroid, and even I believe the hit the Timberwolf (madcat) took was too much.

[Nearly Dead]

I don't know the history, but I thought they went 8x8 because of long wait times, or simply inability to fill any que at all. In QP the wait is usually less than a minute, often near instant if you are willing to go with a class that is in demand. I have often see 0% on light mechs and the MM still dropped two teams. Odd to race for the circle in a 64KPH mech. And win.

[TheCaptainJZ]

It was 8v8 first because that's what they programmed first. When they first moved to 12v12, there were concerns about performance and stability that ended up working out satisfactorily.

[Tarl Cabot]

TheCaptainJZ, on 20 April 2020 - 06:11 PM, said:

It was 8v8 first because that's what they programmed first. When they first moved to 12v12, there were concerns about performance and stability that ended up working out satisfactorily.

And even though we do not know PGI storyboard, or if they even had one, 12vs12 would have also been one of the stepping stones for if CW/FP was to ever come into existence.

[Xmith]

I fondly remember 8v8 deatballs back in the day.

[Ignatius Audene]

If he is talking about original clan introduction to mwo he is right. Clan was borderline op.
But looking at his stats, playing on and off over the years, he is probably talking about the current the situation (he played nov 2019). And now balance is nearly perfect. Of course still lots of weapons and chassis that need a tuning (movement after desync etc.) but clan vs IS balance is good.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 24 April 2020 - 12:38 AM.