297 replies to this topic

[Alreech]

Talorion, on 07 May 2020 - 10:50 PM, said:

I would like to get rid of something about bad players, beginners, etc. There was a time when you could try out a 'Mech without being blemished when you did less than 500 damage. Today I hardly dare to do that because this is what is happening.

MWO changed a lot.
PGI sold it as a tactical shooter with Mechs, based around the Battletech Lore, teamwork and roles.
Found a unit with some friends, drop as group, each mech with a specific role on the Battlefield:
2 Brawlers, one Scout with TAG or NARC, an Artillery Mech with LRMs,...
And that was the way it was played in the beginning.

MWO is now:
A competetive game for Solo players who want to rank up.
Like Quake, Unreal Tournament, ect...

But unlike these real competetive Shooters MWO Players can have vastly diffrent loadouts and abilities.
But most of them don't work in Solo, so every one is running the same loadout.

Bonusproblem for competetive Solo Players:
The teams and the maps are to big for ad hoc cooperation between players.
But that's not a problem if you see your team mates as meatshields...

Edited by Alreech, 08 May 2020 - 10:30 AM.

[Alreech]

Anomalocaris, on 03 May 2020 - 08:51 PM, said:

It comes down to the matchmaker. It basically treats about 50-60% of the population as equal in skill. So you might find yourself matched with someone who had vastly better performance than you do, but because the tier system is broken, it treats you as equals.

The chances to get some one with better skill as team mate or in the opposite team are equal.
The broken thing in the system is that good players in Solo don't give a dam about their team mates.
They don't bother to use VOIP at the start of the match to set up a common goal (like "regroup in G7 and then go for the enemy base") and they don't help a slow team mate that was left behind and get's swarmed by light Mechs.

Good in Solo means a high K/D and high W/L.
Just run the Loadouts that every Solo players uses, don't risk an early game over, stay alive because the last standing mech gets the kills.

[Brauer]

Alreech, on 08 May 2020 - 10:21 AM, said:

The chances to get some one with better skill as team mate or in the opposite team are equal.
The broken thing in the system is that good players in Solo don't give a dam about their team mates.
They don't bother to use VOIP at the start of the match to set up a common goal (like "regroup in G7 and then go for the enemy base") and they don't help a slow team mate that was left behind and get's swarmed by light Mechs.

Good in Solo means a high K/D and high W/L.
Just run the Loadouts that every Solo players uses, don't risk an early game over, stay alive because the last standing mech gets the kills.

Okay, so you say being good is having a high W/L. Sooo maybe doing things like "helping" a teammate who either pathed so poorly that they're way in the back, or has a top speed of 32kph is actually a bad thing for the team as a whole and shouldn't be done.

There are numerous reasons that many players don't rely on their teammates or go out of their way to help them. Some of those reasons are:

• Some of the behaviors you see as "helping" actively throw the game away
  
• Teammates more often than not do not act on good advice or follow good calls
  
• Many players in this game couldn't pilot a mech out of a wet paper bag, much less win a fight - relying on them is suicide.
  
• Coordination in a pick-up-game environment will always be somewhat lacking because it takes time to learn each others habits, preferences, and develop mutual trust

If you spent any time with a decent unit you would see that players are active on comms and assist each other. The lack of teamwork isn't due to some "dumbing down" of MWO as you claim, but a function of 1) the level of play and understanding of the game being relatively low among the playerbase on average, and 2) the inherent nature of pickup games.

[Anomalocaris]

Alreech, on 08 May 2020 - 10:21 AM, said:

The chances to get some one with better skill as team mate or in the opposite team are equal.
The broken thing in the system is that good players in Solo don't give a dam about their team mates.
They don't bother to use VOIP at the start of the match to set up a common goal (like "regroup in G7 and then go for the enemy base") and they don't help a slow team mate that was left behind and get's swarmed by light Mechs.

Good in Solo means a high K/D and high W/L.
Just run the Loadouts that every Solo players uses, don't risk an early game over, stay alive because the last standing mech gets the kills.

You've missed the point again. OP was talking about inconsistency of games. If there are 2 400 AMS players dropping in a 24 person match where everyone is Tier 1, you have a 1 in 4 chance of having both on your team and a 1 in 4 chance of having both on the other team. If they're both on your team you're going to do pretty well. If they're both on the other team things are probably going to go bad. A proper MM would split those players between teams as often as possible.

[PCHunter]

I am going to weight in on this subject only this once because I sense that others have had the same concerns. I have played consistently since the group option was opened. I am finding that for me, a Tier 2 player (and that is a generous rating), matches have become mostly unplayable, less involving and certainly less fun of late. Most matches that include 4-person groups include 8 Tier 1 players in the game. This results in one of two outcomes for the team I am on: a rout or a stomp. In the former I can hardly get a shot off let alone a kill with the experts marching around. I never see a 500 match score and I doubt I ever will again, when I used to occasionally score one.

In the case of the latter, it's a 0-12 or 1-12 end score and that is no fun at all. No one wants to be on the team that gets slaughtered by seal clubbers - that's right, you know what that term means. Last night, I had several admitted Tier 1 players on my team alone, so I figure that was the case on the other team. Or maybe not. More than one admitted to being top rated - I did not confirm that with the leader board. The action was extremely fast and over in minutes. I was lucky to survive and get some shots off.

Routs and stomps. 3-4 minute matches. 4-man Tier 1 groups dominating the matches. Not good for solo players of lesser skill and rating. I admit my lack of skill. But at least I used to be in a core group of similar players in matches. Lastly, the use of Tier 1 players to dumb down their ratings via newer alias accounts is also a detriment to the game. Or find a way to handicap these guys when they play lesser rated players. I am tired of being one-shot by some expert Tier 1 who has infinitely more knowledge and experience in this game than me. It's as though they know who is the easy target and swat them for shear sadistic joy.

This game, already desperate for players is not making good moves to either preserve or gain participation. I have actually witnessed other players just giving up mid-game amid the onslaught. I don't blame their "what's the point?" attitude. Just move on to the next, maybe better matched, game. Hopefully when and if you launch a MW5-based version you do better.

Edited by PCHunter, 11 May 2020 - 10:40 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

PCHunter, on 11 May 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

This game, already desperate for players is not making good moves to either preserve or gain participation. I have actually witnessed other players just giving up mid-game amid the onslaught. I don't blame their "what's the point?" attitude. Just move on to the next, maybe better matched, game. Hopefully when and if you launch a MW5-based version you do better.

Thanks for your story, but as others have mentioned, if you guys keep experiencing this stuff but continue to play during this "experiment", you're just justifying PGI's decision to make this change. They're not going to read your stories. They're just going to look at player numbers and say "see, we were right". Your only option to get changes made is to not play and hope they revert come May 28th. That or organize a twitter campaign to show Russ how many people are unhappy. Odds are poor either way, but continuing to play a messed up mode is definitely not going to help. I definitely went through some withdrawal when I stopped play after the merge, but its really the only thing I could do to try and get solo queue back.

[wasder undapants]

PCHunter, on 11 May 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

I am going to weight in on this subject only this once because I sense that others have had the same concerns. I have played consistently since the group option was opened. I am finding that for me, a Tier 2 player (and that is a generous rating), matches have become mostly unplayable, less involving and certainly less fun of late. Most matches that include 4-person groups include 8 Tier 1 players in the game. This results in one of two outcomes for the team I am on: a rout or a stomp. In the former I can hardly get a shot off let alone a kill with the experts marching around. I never see a 500 match score and I doubt I ever will again, when I used to occasionally score one.

Well this sucks, sorry to hear it. It's not been my experience but I guess I play at different times to you and I am experienced in the game. If you want to drop with a few guys who enjoy the game for fun but do try to coordinate their actions as this game is clearly a team game then just add me to your friends list in game. I dont care for bias man and as long as you arent malicious which you dont sound like you are we would be happy to drop with you while the game allows us too. We use discord too which we dont mind giving out - again if you arent malicious

Edited by wasder undapants, 11 May 2020 - 03:22 PM.

[Horseman]

PCHunter, on 11 May 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

Most matches that include 4-person groups include 8 Tier 1 players in the game.

Tier 1 ranges from people in the 99th percentile of rankings to the 38th percentile of rankings. It's not a good metric for evaluating competence.

Quote

Routs and stomps. 3-4 minute matches. 4-man Tier 1 groups dominating the matches. Not good for solo players of lesser skill and rating. I admit my lack of skill. But at least I used to be in a core group of similar players in matches. Lastly, the use of Tier 1 players to dumb down their ratings via newer alias accounts is also a detriment to the game. Or find a way to handicap these guys when they play lesser rated players. I am tired of being one-shot by some expert Tier 1 who has infinitely more knowledge and experience in this game than me. It's as though they know who is the easy target and swat them for shear sadistic joy.

The problem isn't with the T1 players, it's with the matchmaker tossing out very unbalanced matches lately. If it worked properly, you would be matched with players closer to your own competence level and influence from any high-ranking players on the opfor would be counterbalanced by equivalent players on your side.

[Nearly Dead]

I am not sure what the focus of the MM is right now. What I see as a player is Priority 1 is getting groups into a match together. If there is one group of 4 Tier 1 players all in assaults or lights or a mix, they drop against whatever is available. If there are smaller groups they seem to split between red and blue. Occasionally I see groups of 4 on both teams, more often a 4 man on one side and a 2 man on the other.

That is based on assuming that groups display their unit names. So if I see four 228 players and two Fox players I assume that the players with no unit tags are not associated with them but that the players with matching unit tags didn't just wander in at random.


If I am going to keep playing and paying some stuff needs to change.

Put the mechs in the appropriate lances. I would think that being on the same team would satisfy the need to play with friends.

Dump tiers and measure how much players contribute to winning and match up players against their peers. Top rated "Type A" players in meta mechs can play against each other.

Average players who want to play what suits them can play against each other.

Putting the two in the same matches frustrates both groups. Mixing " I live and die by my K/D ratio" players and "I play to have fun" casual players is alienating BOTH groups. How long is this going to last before enough of both quit?

You see it when players get overwhelmed in the game and just stand there and die. You hear it in team chat when the unit players sneer at potatoes and rage when a player makes a mistake or does something they consider dumb.

Nothing like fighting as hard and smart as you know how, losing, and hearing some jackass broadcast "Worst team ever". Really makes you want to come back and do it again.

[Brain Cancer]

PCHunter, on 11 May 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

I am going to weight in on this subject only this once because I sense that others have had the same concerns. I have played consistently since the group option was opened. I am finding that for me, a Tier 2 player (and that is a generous rating), matches have become mostly unplayable, less involving and certainly less fun of late. Most matches that include 4-person groups include 8 Tier 1 players in the game. This results in one of two outcomes for the team I am on: a rout or a stomp. In the former I can hardly get a shot off let alone a kill with the experts marching around. I never see a 500 match score and I doubt I ever will again, when I used to occasionally score one.

Never consider Tier = skill. It never has, it never will. It is a "time played" measurement, at best.

Jarl's List is your friend, with a K/D and W/L around 1 being "you're holding your own". You are slightly below that.

Quote

In the case of the latter, it's a 0-12 or 1-12 end score and that is no fun at all. No one wants to be on the team that gets slaughtered by seal clubbers - that's right, you know what that term means. Last night, I had several admitted Tier 1 players on my team alone, so I figure that was the case on the other team. Or maybe not. More than one admitted to being top rated - I did not confirm that with the leader board. The action was extremely fast and over in minutes. I was lucky to survive and get some shots off.

Again, Tier means nothing. Some of the absolutely bog-awful players I've seen in matches have had a "1" next to their forum postings for months. You will eventually end up Tier 1 given your play record, it'll just take longer than better players. Organized players, on the other hand, will generally be deadlier than their previous records indicate, simply because teamwork > random potato motion. (It's easy to check people after a match, though- just screenshot and look em up on Jarl's.)

Quote

Routs and stomps. 3-4 minute matches. 4-man Tier 1 groups dominating the matches. Not good for solo players of lesser skill and rating. I admit my lack of skill. But at least I used to be in a core group of similar players in matches. Lastly, the use of Tier 1 players to dumb down their ratings via newer alias accounts is also a detriment to the game. Or find a way to handicap these guys when they play lesser rated players. I am tired of being one-shot by some expert Tier 1 who has infinitely more knowledge and experience in this game than me. It's as though they know who is the easy target and swat them for shear sadistic joy.

There is no sorting by anything at this point in the matchmaker worth mentioning. Tonnage or tiering. At Tier 2, you were almost guaranteed to have T1 players in your matches even BEFORE this, but one more time: *Tier does not measure skill in any sense of the word*.

What you're experiencing is likely 3-4 competent players dropping together and using the magical power of "shooting the same target", meaning you more rarely have the shield of most of your enemies not knowing what the other members of their team are aiming at. Ergo, you die fast and die hard. That's group-solo queue for you: You will now be much more likely to run into even average players with basic organizational skills that can reliably communicate "Shoot Alpha" and be in the same place to do so at the same time. Further, herd play being what it is, there's a modest chance other people will follow them in turn.

If you don't get that group, hope for either the miracle of a super-carrying wonder players (because again, skill doesn't mean jack diddly to the matchmaker) or enjoy being shown the door repeatedly as a learning process that was suspended by solo queue gets burned into your playtime over and over again. Because skill based matchmaking never really existed, the population has dwindled to the point where skill based matchmaking cannot exist for lack of enough players to do so.

Quote

This game, already desperate for players is not making good moves to either preserve or gain participation. I have actually witnessed other players just giving up mid-game amid the onslaught. I don't blame their "what's the point?" attitude. Just move on to the next, maybe better matched, game. Hopefully when and if you launch a MW5-based version you do better.

They won't. This was not a move to preserve or gain participation, it was a move to allow for basic game functioning to persist until the population reaches the final state of dysfunction. The next step after it would be reverting solo queues to 8v8 play like beta. Give it a few months.

[Brain Cancer]

Horseman, on 12 May 2020 - 04:01 AM, said:

Tier 1 ranges from people in the 99th percentile of rankings to the 38th percentile of rankings. It's not a good metric for evaluating competence.

The problem isn't with the T1 players, it's with the matchmaker tossing out very unbalanced matches lately. If it worked properly, you would be matched with players closer to your own competence level and influence from any high-ranking players on the opfor would be counterbalanced by equivalent players on your side.

Given the current population, if it attempted this, you would be waiting a long, LONG time for matches.

As I've said before, though- this is the culmination of the current PSR/Tiering system applied over years to deliberately jam as many people into one "tier" in order to give people playing a smooth waiting time for more matches, regardless of the quality of the team they're on matching their own. The frustration levels this caused has been gradually poisoning the player experience for the entire time, and quite simply, it's collapsed to the point where the group queue effectively ceased to exist first as 12v12, then even as 8v8, and now the vestiges of that have been folded into solo in order to re-inflate the solo queue population pool once again, regardless of long-term effects.

Because dead later > dead now.

[Brain Cancer]

Nearly Dead, on 13 May 2020 - 06:20 AM, said:

I am not sure what the focus of the MM is right now. What I see as a player is Priority 1 is getting groups into a match together. If there is one group of 4 Tier 1 players all in assaults or lights or a mix, they drop against whatever is available. If there are smaller groups they seem to split between red and blue. Occasionally I see groups of 4 on both teams, more often a 4 man on one side and a 2 man on the other.

Critical error: "Tier 1 groups". Tier doesn't equal skill, especially at TIer 1. It is "time played", not "time played well".

Groups are much, much more likely to be competent in part because "teamwork is OP", but also the motivation to team up very frequently is actually paired with being a functional pilot, thereby removing 1-3 more potential "I have trouble scoring double digit damage" members of your team from the pool if you've lanced it up with some similarly motivated buddies.

They don't have to be Tier 1. I was grouping at Tier 3, and my record with a group always was better than dealing with randum solo stuff. The current situation allows for small groups to improve their odds simply because they actually have a few reliable players guaranteed to work with them- each other.

Quote

That is based on assuming that groups display their unit names. So if I see four 228 players and two Fox players I assume that the players with no unit tags are not associated with them but that the players with matching unit tags didn't just wander in at random.


If I am going to keep playing and paying some stuff needs to change.

Put the mechs in the appropriate lances. I would think that being on the same team would satisfy the need to play with friends.

Dump tiers and measure how much players contribute to winning and match up players against their peers. Top rated "Type A" players in meta mechs can play against each other.

Average players who want to play what suits them can play against each other.

Quote

There aren't enough players left to actually keep a matchmaker functional with any reasonable amount of timing if actual separation by skill occurs. Far too late- that became nonviable over a year ago at the latest.

Putting the two in the same matches frustrates both groups. Mixing " I live and die by my K/D ratio" players and "I play to have fun" casual players is alienating BOTH groups. How long is this going to last before enough of both quit?

Hang around and you'll find out.

Quote

Nothing like fighting as hard and smart as you know how, losing, and hearing some jackass broadcast "Worst team ever". Really makes you want to come back and do it again.

People being frustrated by being stuck with players far off from their own skill level and being basically hosed from the first 10 seconds of a match has been the poison killing this game for years. If you haven't been hearing it, you weren't playing in solo queue as the numbers gradually dwindled.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 13 May 2020 - 10:32 PM.

[Ratsnacker]

I think this merge is a good idea. I only play solo now because trying to introduce new players (forming as a group) didn’t retain those players due to the insane waiting times. I’m wanting to play with friends, but never get to show them how fun it is if we can’t get a match, putting me back in solo, and them off to other games.
If we want this game to survive for ourselves, we need to get new players in. Reducing the wait times will be significantly more appealing to any new player, so this has to be done IMO.

[PCHunter]

Update: I ranted and thought I was done with this, but I have a new development. Since posting, I have surveyed team mates in game on the subject. Seems about everyone feels that this is the new reality and this is what we will live with. Also, there is still a common belief that Tier rating equals skill. I'm still seeing the lopsided outcomes, but there have been some really close and exciting games. Also, I've been on teams where I was familiar with the opposition 4-man group, sounded my warning to the team, yet we wiped the board with them. Go figure. However, I have yet to see very many 500 game scores on either side. Damage points seems more balanced overall. This makes me wonder if I can ever complete any game challenge that includes achieving a 500 game score ever again. I used to strive for it, but now it seems pretty hopeless. Whatever, there are still plenty of goals and awards o be had.

Edited by PCHunter, 15 May 2020 - 08:10 AM.

[Horseman]

PCHunter, on 15 May 2020 - 08:09 AM, said:

Also, there is still a common belief that Tier rating equals skill.

Like I said, we're seeing people in T1 who are as low as the 38th percentile. Even PGI's own post about PSR says as much:
https://mwomercs.com...-tiers-and-psr/

Quote

Tiers are NOT a RANK. You do not rank your way up in Tiers.
breaking into Tier 1 is just a way for us to make sure you never play anyone in tier 4 or 5. Anyone who has a slightly positive Win/Loss ratio should eventually end up in Tier 1 if they are consistent in their play and match performance.

If we were to turn off new player registration/sign-up and just let the current player base play on forever, eventually everyone will bubble up to Tier 2 or Tier 1.

To add to that, the way PSR is unbalanced right now, you don't actually need a positive win/loss ratio to get up to T1 - as evidenced with players whose WLR is 0.6 (ie their presence on the battlefield is a net negative to their team's chances of success) who made it to T1 anyway.

PCHunter, on 15 May 2020 - 08:09 AM, said:

This makes me wonder if I can ever complete any game challenge that includes achieving a 500 game score ever again. I used to strive for it, but now it seems pretty hopeless. Whatever, there are still plenty of goals and awards o be had.

You can cheese it with LRM boats (AWS-8R!) or by running an AMS boat Nova or Corsair.

Edited by Horseman, 15 May 2020 - 08:36 AM.

[Brauer]

Horseman, on 15 May 2020 - 08:35 AM, said:

You can cheese it with LRM boats (AWS-8R!) or by running an AMS boat Nova or Corsair.

That or a lot of midrange builds can fairly reliably contend for 500ms. Bring a dakka assault and it's not too hard to hit it.

[Slopey]

Well, I'm all for it.

Came back after a 2 year break prior to the queue merge and tried to do a couple of drops with some friends, and got nada - literally wasted a whole night of gaming waiting to get matched. On the very rare occasion we tried for a game in the pug queue, we were on different sides, or different games all together. Raged quitted in disgust and went to play something we could actually play!

Last couple of days, had consistent 4 man lance drops with wait times of *seconds* rather than 10-20 minutes!!!

I'm not concerned if it's unbalanced - at least you can actually play the game, and we've been dropped as a group consistently every time.

Way way way better imho.

If there's not enough population to support the group queue, then it's just a fact of life. At least with being able to get a game now, pugs might be more inclined to join a group - because for the last couple of years, that's been largely pointless if you actually want to do more than 3 games an entire night.

Edited by Slopey, 15 May 2020 - 03:21 PM.

[Anomalocaris]

Slopey, on 15 May 2020 - 03:20 PM, said:

Well, I'm all for it.

Came back after a 2 year break prior to the queue merge and tried to do a couple of drops with some friends, and got nada - literally wasted a whole night of gaming waiting to get matched. On the very rare occasion we tried for a game in the pug queue, we were on different sides, or different games all together. Raged quitted in disgust and went to play something we could actually play!

Last couple of days, had consistent 4 man lance drops with wait times of *seconds* rather than 10-20 minutes!!!

I'm not concerned if it's unbalanced - at least you can actually play the game, and we've been dropped as a group consistently every time.

Way way way better imho.

If there's not enough population to support the group queue, then it's just a fact of life. At least with being able to get a game now, pugs might be more inclined to join a group - because for the last couple of years, that's been largely pointless if you actually want to do more than 3 games an entire night.

So to summarize, you rage quit because you couldn't play the mode you wanted, correct? Then when you got the mode you wanted "everything was awesome"? (sing it with me).

So you've got a wonderful idea about how many solo queue players will feel after this merge. And thus when they rage quit after getting curb stomped, that's perfectly fine too, right?

"**** your solo queue, I want group drops" will lead to "**** this game I'm going to play something else", just like it did for you. Thank you for your post. It was extremely illustrative of the attitude that's going to tank this population.

[Slopey]

No - I quit after 2 or 3 nights where it was *impossible* to play either at all, or to get a game with a group of friends who were actively trying to play together.

A game you can't play isn't a game which is deserving of our time as we all have families and other commitments.

If you want it put back how it was, there'll be nobody playing - nobody's going to wait around for 20-30 mins to get a drop these days except the hardest of hardcore - the rest of us have better things to do with our time.

Now we can consistently drop, we've had a load of fun the last 3-4 nights, and I'm considering spending some cash to buy a few new chassis just to experiment - I wouldn't have done that 3 weeks ago.

The population had gone anyway - anything which lets people actually play is likely positive, otherwise, they'll pull the plug when it doesn't make any money.

YMMV - I'm just glad I can actually drop now with friends instead of staring at a waiting animation and quitting 20 minutes later. I don't understand why you'd want to sit around waiting with a progress indicator not getting a drop vs actually being able get a drop consistently and easily.

I just want to pew pew in 'Mechs while we can't get out to do tabletop, so it works for me

Edited by Slopey, 15 May 2020 - 03:48 PM.

[Anomalocaris]

I'm sorry, but you're ignoring the reality of the situation. You could have dropped in faction, or you could have dropped solo. You could have played the game. But you couldn't play it the _way_ you wanted to play it.

Now solo queue is completely borked for solo players. I can't play solo queue anymore because it doesn't exist. Sure, I could drop, but groups have an advantage and I have no desire to play as part of a pre-made just as you had no desire to play solo. Thus my game is screwed. It's exactly the same situation you faced. I can't play the mode I want to play. Call it selfish if you like, but I play for my entertainment, so of course I'm selfish, just like you were.

I never took a couple years off from the game, I've been playing under one account or another for a solid 4 years. Now I'm not playing. Trying to trade current customers for the uncertainty of new customers (or recaptured ones) is sketchy at best. And BTW, player numbers have been trending up since the Covid19 crap started. You can check steamcharts for that. We were able to get reasonable drop times in solo well before the merge occurred, so those of us playing in that queue had no issues with wait time.

I just want guys like you to admit that, while you like the new merge, you're getting your way at the expense of other players who were playing happily until the merge. I didn't kill group queue. The people who stopped playing it killed it. And now you've killed solo too. :thumbsup:

p.s. - according to Russ they were not making money as far back as last May when they went into maintenance mode. We're not even close to those avg player numbers so this isn't really going to make a difference.

Edited by Anomalocaris, 15 May 2020 - 03:54 PM.