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Combining Group And Solo Queues - 4 Week Test


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#1561 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 07:19 PM

View PostKin3ticX, on 22 May 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

On the flip side if they tighten the MM and revise the PSR the wait times just go up and we would have a 78 page thread about that instead.


Isnt part of the issue is that Russ and team are using group MM setup instead of the solo MM setup w/modifications?
  • Use Solo MM setup
  • Remove (modify group tonnage) while also limited to 1 per weight class
  • Drop max group from 4 to 3
    • Still an impact but not as much.
    • Communication - seasoned and effective players may not require lot of communication, but communication and the effectiveness is more important with less effective players, for those who will and do listen and follow, yes?
    • The above is where lots of groaning comes from, players who do not play like a team/co-op. And it would be in the best interest of the grouped players to include others then not, yes?
    • The above would help reinforce how a team working together can increase its force multiplier. Why sweep it under the rug?
  • Have MM ignore group weight classes and only match up the solo weight class w/odd mech out
    • Prior to merge, Solo MM always matched up weight classes while Group MM really didnt, or if it did it was so loose it would make someone who birthed 10 kids appear to be a virgin.
  • MM is still using Tier, but in Group MM that was the first thing that went out the door, if it was used at all.
  • Modify Tier settings by increasing PSR threshold (MS requirements) to hep spread out the herd by having players actually drop in Tiers


#1562 Brauer

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 08:13 PM

View PostThe Teddy Bear, on 22 May 2020 - 11:45 AM, said:


In respect for the solo players in your team! Many of them who probably never have seen a team in "action" before this test, and quite a few of them would by now have started to wonder what is going on. I feel it would be in its proper place to at least tell them in the beginning of the match: What tonnage/mechs you are running, your loadouts and what your intentions and plan are for the match. After that you dont have to say anything. Maybe, you will increase your winrate a bit maybe even by the sacred 3%?


So I have tried to tell the team what to do at the start, for example telling them we want to control the spine/bridge on HPG, and I always include coordinates. The thing is that this hasn't led the random players on the teams I've played with to do anything like what I have recommended.

I also make calls with some frequency mid-match, and these seem (and this is very subjective) to have a slightly higher chance of being followed, but more often than not it's like making calls into the void.

Because of these experiences I fairly frequently don't bother. I know I've got one to three players by my side who I can depend on to a much greater degree, and generally we coordinate what we're doing to some extent. It's usually much more fun and useful to focus on communicating with those players than trying to heard a pick-up team that may include players who have comms turned off, who are actively against any kind of play other than rushing at their first target, or who simply don't have the discipline to hold a power position.

#1563 The Teddy Bear

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 08:52 PM

View PostBrauer, on 22 May 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

So I have tried to tell the team what to do at the start, for example telling them we want to control the spine/bridge on HPG, and I always include coordinates. The thing is that this hasn't led the random players on the teams I've played with to do anything like what I have recommended.

I also make calls with some frequency mid-match, and these seem (and this is very subjective) to have a slightly higher chance of being followed, but more often than not it's like making calls into the void.

Because of these experiences I fairly frequently don't bother. I know I've got one to three players by my side who I can depend on to a much greater degree, and generally we coordinate what we're doing to some extent. It's usually much more fun and useful to focus on communicating with those players than trying to heard a pick-up team that may include players who have comms turned off, who are actively against any kind of play other than rushing at their first target, or who simply don't have the discipline to hold a power position.


I understood what you were saying in the first post. Yust saying, you are now playing with some players that have never experienced playing with or against a group before.

#1564 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 04:25 AM

View PostBrauer, on 22 May 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

So I have tried to tell the team what to do at the start, for example telling them we want to control the spine/bridge on HPG, and I always include coordinates. The thing is that this hasn't led the random players on the teams I've played with to do anything like what I have recommended.

I also make calls with some frequency mid-match, and these seem (and this is very subjective) to have a slightly higher chance of being followed, but more often than not it's like making calls into the void.

Because of these experiences I fairly frequently don't bother. I know I've got one to three players by my side who I can depend on to a much greater degree, and generally we coordinate what we're doing to some extent. It's usually much more fun and useful to focus on communicating with those players than trying to heard a pick-up team that may include players who have comms turned off, who are actively against any kind of play other than rushing at their first target, or who simply don't have the discipline to hold a power position.


This is not a perfect world, there will be players who do follow and your team, then those who do not. For many they have played without any real direction/control, and that also includes being aggressive when it is called. Some will try to follow though and that is the important part. The other part will be, whatever plans are made do so with the expectation that those not grouped up may not follow then adjust accordingly, just as you currently have to do now.

View PostThe Teddy Bear, on 22 May 2020 - 08:52 PM, said:

I understood what you were saying in the first post. Yust saying, you are now playing with some players that have never experienced playing with or against a group before.


TTB, even after what I posted, I believe some of it is that his calls, when he tries it w/in-game VOIP, changes and likely drastically based on who follows, using tactics when most of the team follows along vs tactics used while depending only on his grouped mates. Something along the lines of calling for a push then having most of the team evaporate away instead.

Some players may have Voice disabled (no icon in Tab/group screen) and also have chat disabled, though they may pay attention to minimap. And as noted TTB, many are not used to playing with an actual group and consistent and even semi-effective drop calling.

Other that groups and external VOIP, the game itself went for almost 3 years with a build-in VOIP, no command wheel and terribly build chat interface, and almost non-existent in the non-combat interface.

#1565 East Indy

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 05:05 AM

View PostBrauer, on 22 May 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

Because of these experiences I fairly frequently don't bother. I know I've got one to three players by my side who I can depend on to a much greater degree, and generally we coordinate what we're doing to some extent. It's usually much more fun and useful to focus on communicating with those players than trying to heard a pick-up team that may include players who have comms turned off, who are actively against any kind of play other than rushing at their first target, or who simply don't have the discipline to hold a power position.

You might've just had bad luck — most teams, I find, are willing to trying something different, especially if it leads to a win and high scores.

By contrast, last night, I was in multiple games where Alpha Lance was slow on the uptake, out of position and eliminated from the game early, leading to 12-1 kinds of experiences. I really do think the question of group skill, at this state of the game, is more often about lack thereof and the matchmaker's inability to account for it.

View PostAnomalocaris, on 22 May 2020 - 02:11 PM, said:


This doesn't require tightening the matchmaker, it just requires looking at your 24 players and splitting them up in a way that best balances skill.

Exactly. Tier 1 has been playing with Tier 5 for months or years. Probably years. That's the reality, but it can be helped if the matchmaker knows who's who.

#1566 Magic Pain Glove

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 09:10 AM

View PostDAEDALOS513, on 21 May 2020 - 01:54 PM, said:

Sigh... you sound really upset (passionate?) and I'm not sure why ppl can't have a conversation without taking it personal (yes, when you call someone dumb you are taking it personal).. anyway..



The funny thing is I didnt say that to you , I said that line of logic is , there is a difference . If you want me to be personal I will say I dont think you are dumb I think you are intentionally misleading others , avoiding discussing observable metrics , using faulty logic and selective player experience of a portion of the playerbase (who likes the change) as it suits your argument while disregarding others in attempt to rationalize and defend the current implementation of the soup queue . While you enjoy the change yourself you still have an irrational fear of it being reversed , which I assure you wont happen.

PGI barely reversed Long-Tom despite everyone being very vocal against it. It only took em 6 months after which faction play was already in ashes.

Quote

I only brought up the fact that many players agree with me because you wanted proof.. if you want to disregard them like you accuse me of doing, be my guest.. be a hippocrit.


Now this here is the funniest thing of it all . You present a portion of forum commentators experience as "proof" to me while disregarding the other sizable portion who dislikes the change while at the same time claiming that all experience is subjective and all that while calling me a "hippocrit".

Posted Image







Quote

Something that would help solo'ers immensely is to join a unit. Make friends and share knowledge.


Should I [GOON] join a unit ? Should ASH [EMP] join a unit ? Should Brauer [MJ12] join a unit ? Once again , good advice but in reality it is a disguised attempt downplay the downsides of the current soup queue and place the blame on personal aspects/skills of individual players . Same thing with your previous "improve" argument . Disguised good advice aimed at redirecting blame for badly implemented change from developer to player.

Quote

PS. You exagerate alot. I don't respond to obvious exagerations.


You dont respond to anything objective if its gonna put you in a corner from which you cant weasel out with self-contradictory arguments you are using . I however don't have that problem .I am willing to debate anyone and explain my reasoning as clear and concise as I can .

You will tell Nearly Dead to "Improve" but you wont tell it to Proton.
You will tell some random pug to "join a unit" for the sake of argument but you wont tell it to me or other players I mentioned above.

10/10 Logic , not contradictory at all .

#1567 pseudofiction

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 09:28 AM

My experience with the groups so far is that they either carry you through the match way too hard, or (very rarely) screw the team over more than any 4 random solo players possibly could have. Either way they are often a big source of imbalance due to superior teamwork and their inclination to use power-builds, that’s why letting them make up to a third of the team is horrible idea. You also need to keep in mind that more people from the unit are often trying to synch-launch with the group so you can end up with even bigger “group”. PGI needs to realize that teamwork and communication is not a standard in quick play. Most of the players don’t have technical means or desire to engage in either and each player is more or less on their own. In the past if the team happened to get a good coordinator, they had big advantage and usually won, but most often this was not the case. Inclusion of the groups into solo queue turns many more matches into a team vs. individual players game, result of which is a painfully predictable stomp – hardly a motivating factor for casually playing individuals. I for one feel so thoroughly demotivated that only the prospect of seeing my real-money investments come to waste and that one special game per evening where no power-gaming group makes it in and the teams are more or less even keep me going. It’s kind of strange to experience this phenomenon from the opposite side than I’m used to. In MW3 I was a member of a clan that dominated the “c6 no/ua no/ice” scene (all weapons, no unlimited ammo, no ice maps) for good 7 years. I don’t think we ever lost a 4v4. There were very few players that could compete with us but you needed 4 to form a team so if we actually managed to find 2 good opponents, they usually ended up with significantly weaker teammates and got stomped, and even if they did get 2 other decent teammates, they were just 4 good individuals while we had years’ worth of teamwork. This is exactly what MWO looks like nowadays with the groups in the solo queue. Difference is that players in MW3 had a choice not to play us and indeed many chose not to and we sometimes had to wait a long time for a match; they would simply find another game-room. In MWO casual players have no such choice. All they can do is click a button and have competitive gaming forced on them depending on their luck. I sincerely hope that by the month’s end the groups will be either removed from the solo queue or heavily revised since I definitely don’t think that mixing these two very different aspects of gaming, casual and competitive, in such crude and insensitive manner is the way forward for this game. It can only make it worse. I can already see other adverse effects of this change. Ever since the groups were introduced into the solo queue I saw sharp decline in variety of builds. After solo players see what mayhem can lurm boats, 6xac riflemen II’s, atm vapor eagles and similar lame-boats cause in groups, they feel the only way to keep up with them is to use the same. How do I know it? Because I feel the urge myself and that urge is currently fighting a battle with my self-respect and slowly getting an upper hand, but not quite yet Posted Image. Soon, all we will be seeing on the battlefield are lurm/atm boats, corsair 7a’s to counter them, riflemen II’s to counter each other and an odd pulse wolfhound, stealth flea, piranha or PPC poptart. Is this what PGI truly wants the game to look like? I think this game could still be great if they instead focused on balancing changes to mechs and weapon systems that would stimulate variability, advertising to bring new players and new content to revitalize the interest of old ones, but considering how the devs seem to be treating this game as no more than a milking cow for money, I don’t see this happening… prove me wrong PGI, I dare you.

Edited by pseudofiction, 23 May 2020 - 09:30 AM.


#1568 Horseman

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 09:29 AM

View PostEast Indy, on 23 May 2020 - 05:05 AM, said:

Exactly. Tier 1 has been playing with Tier 5 for months or years. Probably years. That's the reality, but it can be helped if the matchmaker knows who's who.

Months at worst, if at all true prior to the queue merge. Remember Ash tested it a while ago https://mwomercs.com...to-make-tier-3/

Edited by Horseman, 23 May 2020 - 09:30 AM.


#1569 Anomalocaris

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 10:16 AM

View Postpseudofiction, on 23 May 2020 - 09:28 AM, said:

My experience with the groups so far is that they either carry you through the match way too hard, or (very rarely) screw the team over more than any 4 random solo players possibly could have. Either way they are often a big source of imbalance due to superior teamwork and their inclination to use power-builds, that’s why letting them make up to a third of the team is horrible idea. You also need to keep in mind that more people from the unit are often trying to synch-launch with the group so you can end up with even bigger “group”.....


A lot of us feel you brother. But to paraphrase Russ... "3%"

Not gonna change IMO. So you have to make a decision on whether you want to deal with it or move on. Cause Russ and Paul definitely aren't listening to those of us with these concerns.

#1570 East Indy

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 12:54 PM

View PostHorseman, on 23 May 2020 - 09:29 AM, said:

Months at worst, if at all true prior to the queue merge. Remember Ash tested it a while ago https://mwomercs.com...to-make-tier-3/

Gotcha, gotcha. I mean true "Tier 5" — below 30% percentile, and likely having crept up in MWO-recognized Tier due to PSR.

#1571 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 06:47 PM

It is only fair that the experiments should continue but for the next month, remove QP and keep only FW, limit group size to 4-man and see how it goes. It is only fair.

#1572 DAEDALOS513

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 07:37 PM

View PostKyoptik, on 19 May 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

From an EU-timezone fan, I can only say thank you PGI, this is the first time group play with a friend of mine has been playable (<10 minute wait time) for over 6 months. I'd forgotten how much I love this game.

Apart from queue times consistently under 2 mins, there's been less Nascar, more team play, more communication and a return to the awesome fun I had when I first came to Mechwarrior Online. Please please keep the changes!

Your words brought a tear to my eye.. Play on my son.. Play on.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 May 2020 - 08:45 PM.


#1573 DAEDALOS513

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 08:05 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 19 May 2020 - 11:35 PM, said:


You've spent a month and seemingly are enjoying this game. Consider that statement after a few months of this and see if you still feel the same. I highly doubt you will even stay on, let alone start spending money on this game.

It's funny that a new player such as yourself have come to the realization that having new players in the same match as experienced players is terrible during the introductory phase but a few of those experienced players and the developers here consider this negligible and wave their hands at it by conjuring random numbers and expressing their "opinions" rather than facts.

Why are you trying to drive players away from this awesome game? He's enjoying himself.. why you gotta ruin it? What's wrong with you ?

#1574 Kin3ticX

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 09:58 PM

View PostFRAGTAST1C, on 23 May 2020 - 06:47 PM, said:

It is only fair that the experiments should continue but for the next month, remove QP and keep only FW, limit group size to 4-man and see how it goes. It is only fair.


The only experiment fraction play needs is to be rebuilt from scratch or to pretend it doesn't exist.

#1575 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted Yesterday, 12:37 AM

View PostDAEDALOS513, on 23 May 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

Why are you trying to drive players away from this awesome game? He's enjoying himself.. why you gotta ruin it? What's wrong with you ?


I'm not driving him away. I'm cautioning him about the current state of the game. [redacted]

View PostKin3ticX, on 23 May 2020 - 09:58 PM, said:


The only experiment fraction play needs is to be rebuilt from scratch or to pretend it doesn't exist.


I know but it is there to give respite from the soup queue. We might as well have FW forced on us for the next month in the name of experiment, no?

Edited by Ekson Valdez, Yesterday, 10:31 PM.


#1576 Raami

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Posted Yesterday, 06:26 AM

Love it. Thanks.

#1577 Anomalocaris

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Posted Yesterday, 08:25 AM

View PostDAEDALOS513, on 23 May 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

Why are you trying to drive players away from this awesome game? He's enjoying himself.. why you gotta ruin it? What's wrong with you ?


Lack of self awareness, meet Daedalos513. LMFAO.

From me to you, why are you trying to drive players away? I was enjoying myself, why you gotta ruin it with merge queue?

The irony is thick.

#1578 Knight Captain Morgan

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Posted Yesterday, 12:17 PM

View PostDAEDALOS513, on 23 May 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

Why are you trying to drive players away from this awesome game? He's enjoying himself.. why you gotta ruin it? What's wrong with you ?

It's not a rando forum post driving the seals away from the clubbing grounds but the endless stream of stomps at the hands of competitive premade farm teams now that the seal reservation has been opened to hunting. Once they are gone, you and your "friend who you just wanna be able to drop with" will become the new seals targeted for clubbing. I suggest yolu enjoy these changes before they transform the new group queue into the old group queue and please, please use the increasing queue times to remember and reflect upon each of your present rando forum posts :D .

#1579 Flyby215

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Posted Yesterday, 01:23 PM

Just using pen and paper I wrote down my results on the weekend. As a group 51W 24L 40Stomps (12-4/4-12 or worse). As solo 41W 22L 31Stomps.

Stomps were 31W 9L as a group, 21W 10L in solo.

Not terrible, but noticeable.

I don't see what's wrong with an opt in opt out solution. The suggestion that "not enough players will opt in" is a direct acknowledgement that most solo queue players do not want a mixed queue.

However it plays out, player experience is subjective. You can tell me the data, but I am personally not enjoying the change. Make the door jokes if you really must, but if the mixed queue stays, I don't think I will be.

Posted Image

Edit: One of the numbers didn't add up. Corrected.

Edited by Flyby215, Yesterday, 01:46 PM.


#1580 Knight Captain Morgan

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Posted Yesterday, 01:28 PM

View PostFlyby215, on 24 May 2020 - 01:23 PM, said:

J 51W 24L 40Stomps (12-4/4-12 or worse).

or according to Russ's common core mathe 40 out of 75 = just 3%





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