1579 replies to this topic

[Anomalocaris]

justcallme A S H, on 30 April 2020 - 03:52 AM, said:

No. Stomps happen due to: SKILL DISPARITY.

So much this. People need to understand this. There is a reason group queue was more stompy than solo. The ultimate answer is skill disparity, but the reason the skill disparity was worse in group queue was the matchmaker, or lack thereof.

There is no doubt that the old solo queue matchmaker needs a lot of work. PSR/Tiers are broken. But ultimately, the pre-merge SQ MM did do something. It matched tiers, mech class and approximate tonnage. While outside of excluding Tier 4/5 that portion of the MM wasn't all that useful, it did at least assign players in a relatively random fashion (provided they're all Tier1) between teams. That means that if you played 100 games, you'd get some stacked teams on either side occasionally, and you'd get some serious potato swarms too, but overall it would balance out and your WLR would reflect your contribution even if the variance from match to match could be irritating.

But GQ had no such protections. It simply matched groups until you had 12v12 (or 8v8 lately). Bigger groups would be lower in tonnage which would theoretically handicap them vs. collections of smaller groups. But there was no attempt to match for skill or even tier. When the population was large, this was probably less of an issue because you weren't likely to face the same high skill groups over and over. But as population dropped, the small groups and low skill players trying group would increasingly face the better groups over and over, resulting in repeated one sided losses and discouraging them from playing.

This is why GQ died well before SQ as population dropped. Because there was no matchmaker (even a crappy one), because there was no tonnage/mech class matching. Because this resulted in high skill stomping low skill on a repeated basis as the high skill players agglomerated into groups (like attracts like remember) while newer players or those trying group for the first time were in less coordinated teams of generally lower skill.

Now they're trying to do the same thing to SQ with the merge. There is no matchmaker. Mech classes and tonnage are not balanced. And high skill groups will stomp low skill groups and players. This isn't rocket surgery people. It's completely predictable.

[RickySpanish]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 April 2020 - 09:43 AM, said:

I love how the "GROUP QUEUE DEAD!" crowd conveniently forgets that even the very brief 8v8 group queue was completely buzzing, even among players who weren't of the "cult of competitive". Players of all skill ranges largely reported satisfaction with the 8v8 group queue. But somehow, "group queue dead!" is still your main argument even when that argument has been shot to pieces. The merging of solo and group queue has only removed features from the game. It hasn't added anything. In the week before the queues were merged, I could already drop as a two man, three man, or four man group and reliably get matches. Even 5 and 6 man teams saw reliable queue pops. I could also drop solo and be premade free, should I feel the urge. Now I can't. Premade free queues are no longer a thing, but somehow you think the loss of a feature enjoyed by the majority of players is a good thing.

My main argument is that players who claim to not enjoy stomping others yet continue to do so, probably actually do enjoy stomping them. If they didn't, they'd clearly not be doing it simply for the good of proving some point or other to PGI.

[DAEDALOS513]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 April 2020 - 09:43 AM, said:

I love how the "GROUP QUEUE DEAD!" crowd conveniently forgets that even the very brief 8v8 group queue was completely buzzing, even among players who weren't of the "cult of competitive". Players of all skill ranges largely reported satisfaction with the 8v8 group queue. But somehow, "group queue dead!" is still your main argument even when that argument has been shot to pieces. The merging of solo and group queue has only removed features from the game. It hasn't added anything. In the week before the queues were merged, I could already drop as a two man, three man, or four man group and reliably get matches. Even 5 and 6 man teams saw reliable queue pops. I could also drop solo and be premade free, should I feel the urge. Now I can't. Premade free queues are no longer a thing, but somehow you think the loss of a feature enjoyed by the majority of players is a good thing.

As good as 8v8 was, it had two problems.. the drops were hardly insta (especially depending on time of day), and matches were too short. It felt more like scouting mode than qp.. grolo queue fixed these issues.

[Anomalocaris]

RickySpanish, on 30 April 2020 - 09:49 AM, said:

My main argument is that players who claim to not enjoy stomping others yet continue to do so, probably actually do enjoy stomping them. If they didn't, they'd clearly not be doing it simply for the good of proving some point or other to PGI.

I'm sure there is some level of amusement at first. The streams I've been watching from good players start with decent meta builds and complementary selections. Then after a few stomps they start to take nuttier and nuttier builds/mechs/combos just to see how much they can derp and still win. Sooner or later those guys will get bored with the stomping. But that doesn't mean the merged queue won't still be just as broken as it is.

[Dionnsai]

RickySpanish, on 30 April 2020 - 09:49 AM, said:

My main argument is that players who claim to not enjoy stomping others yet continue to do so, probably actually do enjoy stomping them. If they didn't, they'd clearly not be doing it simply for the good of proving some point or other to PGI.

I don't think so, I think they're hoping that an equally skilled 4 man will appear on the opposite team and give them a good fight, which DOES happen.

There are also fun matches that happen where all of the pugs yolo in and die and you're down 4 vs 8 and you get to try to claw back a win with 2 to 1 odds, which is pretty damn fun in anyone's book.

Edited by Dionnsai, 30 April 2020 - 10:22 AM.

[Larsh]

Horseman, on 30 April 2020 - 09:11 AM, said:

Easy: Most people are right-handed and will attempt to flank targets on their dominant side. NASCAR is a result of people following flankers when they shouldn't have, but once it reaches critical mass other mechs have to choose between following the merry-go-round or dying.

Yea. In the past this was a big issue if you dropped in solo matches, and with sync drops. It might be due to the new system in place, but I have encountered much less of this. The system still needs some tweaking, and with a look at the PSR as many have mentioned.

BenMillard, on 30 April 2020 - 08:26 AM, said:

Faction Play logic of ranking groups and placing them on opposite sides, then filling in the remaining slots with solo players to balance tonnage and ranks, actually works well. Especially when group sizes are fairly small, such as 2-4 players each. Applying that to QP, perhaps with the match countdown and visible queue length, would be a logical move given the proven success of those systems.

Horseman, on 30 April 2020 - 09:11 AM, said:

TBH... agreed, that is another potentially viable direction to take it.

Damn, place me as second on agreement on this idea.

[Dionnsai]

I think the single biggest problem I have is that there is a complete lack of skill based player ranking and so teams are never properly balanced except by random chance.

I've seen a high-tier 4 man with several skilled solo queue pilots pitted against a team with 4 cadets and no group at all. This should not be happening, but without some way to order pilots by actual ability, I don't see how you prevent it.

I'm not sure where the idea for this "Everyone-Feels-Good-About-Themselves-Participation-Prize" Tier system came from, but it doesn't work for very obvious reasons. Hopefully whoever thought it up has been long-since fired.

[justcallme A S H]

RickySpanish, on 30 April 2020 - 09:49 AM, said:

My main argument is that players who claim to not enjoy stomping others yet continue to do so, probably actually do enjoy stomping them. If they didn't, they'd clearly not be doing it simply for the good of proving some point or other to PGI.

Fun to drop with friends.

Boring to stomp senseless.

Stompee's find it even more seneless.


Really not that hard to work out?

DAEDALOS513, on 30 April 2020 - 10:03 AM, said:

As good as 8v8 was, it had two problems.. the drops were hardly insta (especially depending on time of day), and matches were too short. It felt more like scouting mode than qp.. grolo queue fixed these issues.

8v8 was as fast as MergeQ is now.

So what made-up argument are you going with next?

[Alreech]

Anomalocaris, on 30 April 2020 - 09:48 AM, said:

So much this. People need to understand this. There is a reason group queue was more stompy than solo. The ultimate answer is skill disparity

How much "skillz" is needed as 2 player group with 2 other players in the lance (not in the same discord/teamspeak) to compansate the advantage a group of 4 players have?

Quote

but the reason the skill disparity was worse in group queue was the matchmaker, or lack thereof.

Can't consider group skill if the match makers top prio is to find a fitting 3 player group to match the 5 player group for 8 vs 8...

[RickySpanish]

justcallme A S H, on 30 April 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

Fun to drop with friends.

Boring to stomp senseless.

Stompee's find it even more seneless.


Really not that hard to work out?



8v8 was as fast as MergeQ is now.

So what made-up argument are you going with next?

OK sure, it's not fun with a huge skill disparity. I might be misunderstanding about 8v8 then, has it been shut down? Is it not possible to still attempt to find games in that queue?

Perhaps there's an unfortunate reality here where most players benefit from this change, but that might not include the top players. I really don't think most players are so thin skinned as to quit if they get stomped a few times. From your perspective it's happening almost every match, but for example I have only seen one top tier premade so far (~20 games played prime-time EST). If PGI are seeing a dangerous dip in numbers due to players not finding games, this might be their only choice.

Edited by RickySpanish, 30 April 2020 - 10:49 AM.

[General Solo]

Groups wanna play other groups
Such a big Joke it makes me puke
With some exceptions

[Anomalocaris]

Alreech, on 30 April 2020 - 10:39 AM, said:

How much "skillz" is needed as 2 player group with 2 other players in the lance (not in the same discord/teamspeak) to compansate the advantage a group of 4 players have?


Can't consider group skill if the match makers top prio is to find a fitting 3 player group to match the 5 player group for 8 vs 8...

Your question is a non-sequitur and your statement does not disprove my assertion about skill disparity being the primary driver of poor match balance.

Please try again.

[DAEDALOS513]

justcallme A S H, on 30 April 2020 - 10:37 AM, said:

8v8 was as fast as MergeQ is now.

So what made-up argument are you going with next?

I tried multiple times to drop with my brother Colosos during the 8v8 band-aid queue and although we got some drops in it took too long to find matches, we got fed up staring at the spinny thingy and played some warfare instead.. and this was during the day NA time.. grolo queue 100 times better in that regard.

OZHomerOZ, on 30 April 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

[Redacted]
[

ahhaaha what did you wright??

Edited by GM Patience, 30 April 2020 - 10:58 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

RickySpanish, on 30 April 2020 - 10:48 AM, said:

OK sure, it's not fun with a huge skill disparity. I might be misunderstanding about 8v8 then, has it been shut down? Is it not possible to still attempt to find games in that queue?

Perhaps there's an unfortunate reality here where most players benefit from this change, but that might not include the top players. I really don't think most players are so thin skinned as to quit if they get stomped a few times. From your perspective it's happening almost every match, but for example I have only seen one top tier premade so far (~20 games played prime-time EST). If PGI are seeing a dangerous dip in numbers due to players not finding games, this might be their only choice.

Group queue no longer exists. It's just the one merged queue.

No one was having trouble finding games. Even at 3am EST I could find a game on the NA server within a couple minutes. On the 27th at 1am EST I was getting matches within 60 seconds most drops. What they were having trouble with was group matches, but that pretty much died months ago if not longer. It was only the switch to 8v8 that revitalized it.

I was sampling streams from Bowser, Yondu, Soma and a couple other good players on the 28th and 29th. And for those guys the stomps were pretty constant. You're just rolling the dice on who you might get as your group lance right now. If we had skill based matchmaking at least you'd see Yondu's group vs. Bowser's group (or whoever) more often.

[RickySpanish]

Anomalocaris, on 30 April 2020 - 10:56 AM, said:

Group queue no longer exists. It's just the one merged queue.

No one was having trouble finding games. Even at 3am EST I could find a game on the NA server within a couple minutes. On the 27th at 1am EST I was getting matches within 60 seconds most drops. What they were having trouble with was group matches, but that pretty much died months ago if not longer. It was only the switch to 8v8 that revitalized it.

I was sampling streams from Bowser, Yondu, Soma and a couple other good players on the 28th and 29th. And for those guys the stomps were pretty constant. You're just rolling the dice on who you might get as your group lance right now. If we had skill based matchmaking at least you'd see Yondu's group vs. Bowser's group (or whoever) more often.

Ooooh. They actually got rid of GQ entirely. Well then. That's err [redacted]. My apologies to Ash et al, I assumed you had a choice.

Edited by RickySpanish, 30 April 2020 - 11:17 AM.

[Magic Pain Glove]

Anomalocaris, on 30 April 2020 - 10:07 AM, said:

I'm sure there is some level of amusement at first. The streams I've been watching from good players start with decent meta builds and complementary selections. Then after a few stomps they start to take nuttier and nuttier builds/mechs/combos just to see how much they can derp and still win. Sooner or later those guys will get bored with the stomping. But that doesn't mean the merged queue won't still be just as broken as it is.

This has largely been my group experience . My group was not even that sweaty ... Out of 50 or so matches I've lost 4 so far . Most of them stomps , few of them matches where my group was able to come back from a losing match 6/1 in favor of the enemy side and stuff like that . You just take a power position on the map and hold it . 1 of the matches I lost is when we started to run somewhat derpy builds and the enemy team had 6 assaults (while we were in 2 on our team ) , and we didnt even group up undertoned.

Did I have fun ? Yes.But it got quite stale after a while.You would stomp over and over again , until you meet a good opponent then you go back to proper mechs and the circle continues. Anyone who has watched my stream knows that I push myself not to run "meta" mechs , instead play memes , lights with silly firepower and other unusual stuff.

But you know whats different ? I can no longer do that while I queue up solo if I want to have a CHANCE of winning in case I get SOMEWHAT decent team on the enemy side . I am not Larsh and neither is most of the population , even when I self balance I am playing to win.

I can no longer afford to "self-balance" in pug queue . Solo experience has been heavily impacted by the change with the simple fact that your contribution ( however small or big it is ) will most likely be less important than performance of the group on your side . I just want to ask are you guys ok with this ? Are you absolutely FINE with matches being decided by the ret***d matchmaker group dice rolls ? Because we know that the matchmaker is just throwing groups at each other with absolutely 0 performance metrics in mind . There is no arguing this .

What I find absolutely hilarious is that a lot of people in this thread don't even realize that some folks arguing in FAVOR of this are doing it for the sake of stomping the **** out of the queue , even tho they know the change is bad for the solo pugies.

The one and only benefit that solo pugs get from this is that the nascar has indeed been greatly reduced . Just with the fact that groups are taking power positions on maps and holding them with some coordination.

But I can understand people who mostly play in groups being in favor of this , but there is no doubt that this is making the experience worse for the pugs and they are the indisputable majority . And I can also see some of the bad pugs embracing matchmaker group dice rolls because even before their impact was minimal and now they get the chance of being carried by a good team making winning for them a bit more easier. As seen in this thread , there are quite a number of 1 post pugies wanting groups out of their games.

If we absolutely HAVE to merge the queues.For the love of PUG limit it to 2 mans . Its still gonna skew the queue but nowhere near as to what we have now ,regardless if you are getting sweaty teams or cadet groups . For people who want more organized stuff they will still have Faction Play and that should(have been) be the mode for higher organized play anyway and they can bring all their 11 friends with them , or 8 or 5 or 6 or 7 ...

[Tarteso]

Three matches in a row:

First:



Second:



Third:



Make your own judgements

[Anomalocaris]

Magic Pain Glove, on 30 April 2020 - 11:21 AM, said:

I can no longer afford to "self-balance" in pug queue . Solo experience has been heavily impacted by the change with the simple fact that your contribution ( however small or big it is ) will most likely be less important than performance of the group on your side . I just want to ask are you guys ok with this ? Are you absolutely FINE with matches being decided by the ret***d matchmaker group dice rolls ? Because we know that the matchmaker is just throwing groups at each other with absolutely 0 performance metrics in mind . There is no arguing this .

…...

If we absolutely HAVE to merge the queues.For the love of PUG limit it to 2 mans . Its still gonna skew the queue but nowhere near as to what we have now ,regardless if you are getting sweaty teams or cadet groups.

Very well said. Would just add that even going to 2-mans, while more acceptable, won't work if PGI does not reinstitute the old SQ MM at a minimum for the remaining 10 players on each team. The tonnage imbalances right now are stupid.

[kapusta11]

On paper merging queues is a good idea, otherwise people just nascar all the time and small groups just leave the game due to inability to play together but matchmaker should balance teams based on some sort of adjusted avg score. Matching a group with avg match score of 500 against a group with 150 is just dumb.

[DAEDALOS513]

Magic Pain Glove, on 30 April 2020 - 11:21 AM, said:

This has largely been my group experience . My group was not even that sweaty ... Out of 50 or so matches I've lost 4 so far . Most of them stomps , few of them matches where my group was able to come back from a losing match 6/1 in favor of the enemy side and stuff like that . You just take a power position on the map and hold it . 1 of the matches I lost is when we started to run somewhat derpy builds and the enemy team had 6 assaults (while we were in 2 on our team ) , and we didnt even group up undertoned.

Did I have fun ? Yes.But it got quite stale after a while.You would stomp over and over again , until you meet a good opponent then you go back to proper mechs and the circle continues. Anyone who has watched my stream knows that I push myself not to run "meta" mechs , instead play memes , lights with silly firepower and other unusual stuff.

But you know whats different ? I can no longer do that while I queue up solo if I want to have a CHANCE of winning in case I get SOMEWHAT decent team on the enemy side . I am not Larsh and neither is most of the population , even when I self balance I am playing to win.

I can no longer afford to "self-balance" in pug queue . Solo experience has been heavily impacted by the change with the simple fact that your contribution ( however small or big it is ) will most likely be less important than performance of the group on your side . I just want to ask are you guys ok with this ? Are you absolutely FINE with matches being decided by the ret***d matchmaker group dice rolls ? Because we know that the matchmaker is just throwing groups at each other with absolutely 0 performance metrics in mind . There is no arguing this .

What I find absolutely hilarious is that a lot of people in this thread don't even realize that some folks arguing in FAVOR of this are doing it for the sake of stomping the **** out of the queue , even tho they know the change is bad for the solo pugies.

The one and only benefit that solo pugs get from this is that the nascar has indeed been greatly reduced . Just with the fact that groups are taking power positions on maps and holding them with some coordination.

But I can understand people who mostly play in groups being in favor of this , but there is no doubt that this is making the experience worse for the pugs and they are the indisputable majority . And I can also see some of the bad pugs embracing matchmaker group dice rolls because even before their impact was minimal and now they get the chance of being carried by a good team making winning for them a bit more easier. As seen in this thread , there are quite a number of 1 post pugies wanting groups out of their games.

If we absolutely HAVE to merge the queues.For the love of PUG limit it to 2 mans . Its still gonna skew the queue but nowhere near as to what we have now ,regardless if you are getting sweaty teams or cadet groups . For people who want more organized stuff they will still have Faction Play and that should(have been) be the mode for higher organized play anyway and they can bring all their 11 friends with them , or 8 or 5 or 6 or 7 ...

I agree with everything you wrote, very reasonable and level headed. I minor thing I have to disagree with is limiting groups to 2man.. before they do this they should try 3man groups out. The best part of grolo queue, that we keep hearing over and over again, is that we can finally drop with friends and unit mates.. limiting groups to only 2, kills alot of that fun.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 30 April 2020 - 11:41 AM.