1580 replies to this topic

[dario03]

VonBruinwald, on 27 April 2020 - 02:15 PM, said:

On the otherside:

Jarl's list will now become worthless with try-hards going 4-man to farm pugs.

This has been covered many times. Jarls list orders by adjusted avgms, so you want a high avgms. It isn't easy to get very high match score with a stacked team because you will get more quick wins with low damage. From what I've seen in the current system a high avgms solo player that goes into group queue with a stacked team sees KDR and W/L go up, avgms goes down.

So unless you go really out of your way like literally getting friends to shield you and disarm enemies so you can shoot off every component this probably won't help. And that wouldn't be so easy to do if another good 4man is on the other side.

Besides Jarls list rank isn't worth much as it is anyways. You can use it to check what class a player mostly uses in qp and get a vague guess of skill but not exacts. Like you can look at the extremes like a sub 200avgms player probably needs work but you can't assume the 380 guy is better than the 350 guy.

Edited by dario03, 27 April 2020 - 03:04 PM.

[Capt Deadpool]

Cluster Fox, on 27 April 2020 - 12:24 PM, said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to try and put as many groups together as possible, then filling up blanks with solos? Now matchmaker would also build solo only games as required. Kind of a matchmaker flipfloping between matching solos or matching groups + filling the blanks. Could simply be based on who's waiting.

Warning incoming Humble Dexterer, on 27 April 2020 - 01:27 PM, said:

Instead you should squeeze as many groups as you can, BUT with the same amount of grouped players on each team, and THAT is what will minimize the amount of solo players being unwillingly dragged into group QP, with no option for them to opt out of them.

Same good idea being stated here and IMO this should be tested after the current test is complete.

Group sizes can still be limited to decrease wait times, and throwing a few solos in with groups vs. throwing groups in with the solos sounds like games will be more balanced affairs.

Release valves can occasionally throw the smallest sized waiting groups into full solo que when necessary, but whatever.

[Brauer]

Clint Steel, on 27 April 2020 - 02:52 PM, said:

Not quite sure I know what you mean, but I do acknowledge that there are several flaws with the way PSR is calculated, aside from my criticism.

The tier ranking system has an upward bias. So given enough games pretty much everyone ends up in tier one. This eventually treats two-time world champs the same as people with negative WLRs, and negative KDRs. This is known both based on the information pgi has released about how PSR works, and from seeing that 60th percentile (or lower) players have made it to tier one.

[Ryder60]

1 big thing.... but so little... Add a counter to group queues! Please!

[Mops1404]

Big thanks to the developers for making group play possible.
Group play is what a majority of players are interested in . No one wants to farm 4 mechs just to play in a group , so new players just leave . If you are afraid that team of 4 skilled players will wreck you then maybe create your own team , or join existing one ?
Solo q is painfull to play at tier 1 , bunch of clowns randomly running around the map doing 95 damage per game , after 10 - 15 games it becomes annoying , after 10 more you just cant play . Again THANK YOU devs for group play , we have been waiting for this.

Edited by Mops1404, 27 April 2020 - 03:25 PM.

[-Tenshi-]

Thank you for adding a group search for quick play. Such an option was sorely lacking.

And for those who cry that the solo players will die out, or the groups will farm them, I want to ask, have you ever seen a sync drop in quick play? I see and very often even 3-4 players from the same tag cannot make an explicit impact. I also often watch games with a score of 12-2 among solo players, so there has never been and will never be a perfect balance?

Therefore, I believe that this is absolutely the right decision to add a group search to Quick Play.

Edited by -Tenshi-, 27 April 2020 - 03:28 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Brauer, on 27 April 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

So what is the logic behind that exactly? Given there's no way for the matchmaker to effectively sort players by ability (based on the info you all have provided and experience) I'm not aware of any reason this would make games more competitive. My experience with group queue, including during the recent revival, is that it's far stompier than solo queue, and I don't see why tossing the queues together would change that (other than to place solo droppers at a disadvantage).

It should help in that groups can't drop in an overpowered 8man.. it's now max 4men..

[Tom Sawyer]

Now dump all the faction maps into the mix. This game has been on life support for some time now. Go out with a bang.

[Brauer]

DAEDALOS513, on 27 April 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:

It should help in that groups can't drop in an overpowered 8man.. it's now max 4men..

We'll see. I expect we will see stomps become more common as competent players will group up and I suspect we won't see competent teams facing each other all that often.

[DAEDALOS513]

WarmasterRaptor, on 27 April 2020 - 03:01 PM, said:

I'm very mitigated on this... it's nice to fill in group queue, consolidate player base,
but we ALL know how Groups fares vs team of Randos... I fear this chase away some newbies...

It's groups of 4.. no stacking

[justcallme A S H]

Paul Inouye, on 27 April 2020 - 10:23 AM, said:

- Matches will become more competitive.

If by competitive you mean 8-0 stomps, then sure.

I did some GroupQ in a 4man the other night.

• Didn't lose a game
  
• Most games were 8-0 stomps
  
• Two of the groups that were opposing us were streaming. After being stomped 8-0 2/3 times both groups discussed being stomped and proceeded to either go back to SoloQ sync drop or just stop playing.

And now you want to add in Super Casuals into the 4-man mix? All because a couple of vocal people tweeting Russ flat out think it's a great idea?

It doesn't work for Warcraft 3. It doesn't work in World of Warships - It ain't gonna work in MWO.

PSR is broken. Without actually fixing that first, match quality will go backwards. So many players that understand the game as a deep level are saying this... Don't let this be another Skill Tree that causes 1,000s of players to leave because you won't listen to the feedback.

How any of this is going to be good for the majority of the MWO population and casual players or even high skill players - I honestly just don't see it.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 27 April 2020 - 03:44 PM.

[crazytimes]

-Tenshi-, on 27 April 2020 - 03:25 PM, said:

or the groups will farm them, I want to ask, have you ever seen a sync drop in quick play? I see and very often even 3-4 players from the same tag cannot make an explicit impact.

You think a properly composed lance, all in comms, all guaranteed to drop on the same team every time, consisting of 1/3 of an entire team, will have absolutely no impact on the outcome?

Ironic for someone who made another account just to stat pad. Now picture 4 people doing it.

I'm not saying it's bad for the game, I'm just saying people thinking 1/3 of the team can't significantly influence the outcome are dreaming. I'd go so far as to say I would expect some 4 man groups to be able to achieve an almost 100% win rate if there is no other similar group in the queue.

[Vxheous]

crazytimes, on 27 April 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

You think a properly composed lance, all in comms, all guaranteed to drop on the same team every time, consisting of 1/3 of an entire team, will have absolutely no impact on the outcome?

Ironic for someone who made another account just to stat pad. Now picture 4 people doing it.

I'm not saying it's bad for the game, I'm just saying people thinking 1/3 of the team can't significantly influence the outcome are dreaming. I'd go so far as to say I would expect some 4 man groups to be able to achieve an almost 100% win rate if there is no other similar group in the queue.

Pretty sure if I run a 4 man of EmP, I can almost achieve 100% win rate assuming we don't run into another 4 man of EmP (doesn't exist in today's age) or some JGx group.

[DAEDALOS513]

Mops1404, on 27 April 2020 - 03:21 PM, said:

Big thanks to the developers for making group play possible.
Group play is what a majority of players are interested in . No one wants to farm 4 mechs just to play in a group , so new players just leave . If you are afraid that team of 4 skilled players will wreck you then maybe create your own team , or join existing one ?
Solo q is painfull to play at tier 1 , bunch of clowns randomly running around the map doing 95 damage per game , after 10 - 15 games it becomes annoying , after 10 more you just cant play . Again THANK YOU devs for group play , we have been waiting for this.

Well said dude.

[Clint Steel]

Brauer, on 27 April 2020 - 03:10 PM, said:

The tier ranking system has an upward bias. So given enough games pretty much everyone ends up in tier one. This eventually treats two-time world champs the same as people with negative WLRs, and negative KDRs. This is known both based on the information pgi has released about how PSR works, and from seeing that 60th percentile (or lower) players have made it to tier one.

Very true. Going down in tier should be as easy as going up.

My statement was just that some pilots are tier 1 light pilots, but but tier 3 assault pilots.
Ideally a player would have a different PSR for every Mech chassis.

They could have an overall rank multiplier as I doubt any true tier 1 player would rank as a tier 5 player in any chassis, but there is little doubt that this would cause issues, especially with the middle tiers.

[Windscape]

People cannot get a match in GQ (2-4 man teams), due to low population.
Matches are unbalanced/low match quality.

Paul's solution:
Combine queues to include 2 4mans on each side with a mixing of smaller groups and solos, using the SQ matchmaking system to "balance" the teams.

Peoples solution:
Do not combine queues as matches would be stacked against the solos. PSR will leave 2 tier 1 4 mans, one 40% and one 90%, against each other. Solution would be to leave GQ 8v8 but with no matchmaking at all matches can be further stinted and 2 players cannot get a drop.

Its clear that there is one solution, that would fix a large majority of the problem.
THE STUPID PSR.

If we were to use a more competitive matchmaking system, match quality would be significantly improved, insuring that if PGI did merge the queues under this system, 1 90% team would be matched with another 90% team (or 80-99%, varying with population).

There is one very successful game that uses a modified GLICKO-2 system for this, CSGO. It uses combined matchmaking but uses a skill rating system that better insures that lower skilled players are still matched with their own kind, rather that the current PSR.

The people here are trying to tell you that the reason why this idea is horrible is because PSR IS HORRIBLE. Admittedly, even with a better matchmaking system, population would still be too low for me to want to recommend combining the queues, as even a better matchmaker can only work so well with the population it has, but that would be the biggest step in the right direction.

The solution is, to Change PSR to a better system, even ELO. While I prefer to have solo queue remain solo, fixing the PSR would allow Paul's proposed system to actually work to an extent, providing matches to 2 man groups while ensuring matches remain decently competitive. CSGO allows for a group of solos to face a full 5 man, and due to its matchmaker matches can still remain consistently even. Going this far in MWO though would be very, very stupid though since CSGO actually has the population to ensure that everyone is in the same skill level roughly.

TLDR: Change PSR to a ELO or GLICKO-2 system, and then your idea may work, but just dumping PSR would make the biggest difference.

[StuffYouFear]

Been awhile since I last posted. Thank yall for still trying new things to keep the group system going. Alot of people dont realize the easy answer for PGI is to just get rid of groups and do nothing but solo que. Can't believe they still care after 8 years of this toxic community.

[50 50]

Well.
This is interesting.
The drop to 8v8 for group queue sounds like it has been a good move, for some timezones, but in other parts of the world I understand it's still a struggle.
So adding or allowing up to a single lance of grouped players to be included in the queue is something to test, or at least try out again seeing as there was only the one queue and one mode a few years back.

It would seem that the biggest point people are making is more to do with the PSR in this situation. Claiming that your game experience will be ruined because you get a bad group on your team while the other team gets a comp group is not a problem with allowing groups to be incorporated as part of the team, but a deficiency in the match maker and PSR system.
So I hope that gets looked at and there have been many good suggestions on that topic.

I would say I am a bit curious about the tonnage restriction for the group or even if it should revert back to the chassis limit.
As I recall, the change to use the tonnage limit for the groups was to remove one of the match making factors to speed up the process for the group queue.
Solo queue was still bound by the weight class limit so I would wonder if that needs to be one of the aspects to be looked at again.
However, one step at a time so lets see how this plays out.

[Scout Derek]

Vxheous, on 27 April 2020 - 03:40 PM, said:

Pretty sure if I run a 4 man of EmP, I can almost achieve 100% win rate assuming we don't run into another 4 man of EmP (doesn't exist in today's age) or some JGx group.

the fact that this is actually true for the most part lets you know the overall skill of the playerbase....

and why people are actually against this so much, this combination of queues with group and solo.

[Brain Cancer]

DAEDALOS513, on 27 April 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:

It should help in that groups can't drop in an overpowered 8man.. it's now max 4men..

Eh.

One person can carry an entire team. Four people can carry them even more easily. One just has to hope you end up with a similar 4 man on your side and they cancel each other out if you're soloing now.