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Missile Boat


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#21 VonBruinwald

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 02:27 AM

View PostSwamp *** MkII, on 01 May 2020 - 05:59 PM, said:

Mad Dog MDD-Prime, ATM-9's and Quad Medium Pulse. 81kph base, decent handling, and buffs to move. Add Cold Downs -10%? and Veloctiy or is it Spread at 5%? Either way, all arround decent LRM boat... Key t othis specific mech, is don't get caught alone, find and stick with the assaults, as this makes a great support mech, not the pusher even though I keep trying. On average I can dish out 600 points without too much issue in a round with dual atm-9's. It can also be versitile through the omnipods, what I tend to do is mix it op a bit, losing the maneuverability bonuses, Say, and H Right Torso with Dual SRM'6 with Artemis, and a ATM 12, Quad Pulse lasers. Yes, I like my pulse lasers.

I have and had fun with, a Mad Cat MCII-4 with straight Quad ATM-9's. Nothing else... Sucks when stuff gets close, but, damn at the 200m range, it packs a serious punch on a alpha strike or 5... Fire twist, fire twist, fire dead in many cases.

A tip about LRM's with Artemis, and ATM's, get Line of Sight, you'll do alot more damage overall!


This is mandatory!

Why not ATM-12's on that prime though?

Took one of my MDD's out for a spin last night (I own 6), did not disappoint:

Spoiler


#22 Horseman

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 02:49 AM

View PostKonril, on 01 May 2020 - 03:04 PM, said:

As much as I want to love the Inner Sphere LRM carriers, I still have to say that it's better to go Clan for missiles. In spite the small disadvantages they Clan launchers have, they have the one huge advantage of being half the weight of the Inner Sphere versions, so the Clans can easily make up in quantity what they lack in quality.

As someone who's been there and done that, trust me that it really doesn't work out that way. Clan LRMs are worse at delivering damage to target (the entire salvo is spread over time). An AWS-8R with 4xLRM-15 beats out 4xC-LRM-20 in DPS.

#23 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 03:41 AM

View PostHorseman, on 02 May 2020 - 02:49 AM, said:

As someone who's been there and done that, trust me that it really doesn't work out that way. Clan LRMs are worse at delivering damage to target (the entire salvo is spread over time). An AWS-8R with 4xLRM-15 beats out 4xC-LRM-20 in DPS.


^ that.

#24 VonBruinwald

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 04:05 AM

View PostHorseman, on 02 May 2020 - 02:49 AM, said:

As someone who's been there and done that, trust me that it really doesn't work out that way. Clan LRMs are worse at delivering damage to target (the entire salvo is spread over time). An AWS-8R with 4xLRM-15 beats out 4xC-LRM-20 in DPS.


You're arguing a min-maxed relying on a particular quirk when he's talking about a tech-base. Never mind that you got to chain or 2x2 those 15's to avoid ghost heat. Try that again with an Assassin vs. Arctic Wolf...

Konril is right in that it's quite easy to make up for IS LRM quality with Clan LRM quantity. The also (typically) have another edge, speed, being able to reposition and lob lurms from a vector that avoids ECM/AMS fields is another thing Clans are able to do much more easily. Brain cancer hits this on the nose.

View PostBrain Cancer, on 01 May 2020 - 09:32 PM, said:

Even an assault boat needs to keep moving, setting up it's locks, clearing it's lines of fire for direct shots and/or bypassing cover, sharing some of the incoming fire on your armor. Contrary to meme builds that try to stuff a gajillion tubes on a 'Mech, the ideal is being able to fire as many as you can without constantly boiling your ride trying, and having some tonnage to spare for at least basic defense.


I'm curious of the speed on that Awesome.

#25 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 04:48 AM

and if you ignore the quirks that go on top of the techbase, you're either very new to the game (which is excusable) -
or you're just doing it wrong.
but pls, go on, ..
it's like fighting windmills in here.


Posted Image

#26 SirSmokes

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 06:21 AM

If yea want to spend money ATM Maddog RV
https://mwo.smurfy-n...1f1bc46862e1b4d

#27 VonBruinwald

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 06:31 AM

View PostTeenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 02 May 2020 - 04:48 AM, said:

and if you ignore the quirks that go on top of the techbase, you're either very new to the game (which is excusable) -
or you're just doing it wrong.


I guess it's just a matter of perspective:

You think the tech is balanced because one particular mech with one particular set of quirks is capable of outperforming the other side when you min-max it (conveniently ignoring the other two hundred mechs that underperform because they lack said quirks).

I think the tech should be balanced on a fundamental level and the quirks should be used primarily for flavour.

#28 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 07:31 AM

dude, you don't get it. one last try.

we don't play with a techtree, we play with actual mechs.
you use
"I think" and "should"
whereas the one thing that counts is
"this IS"

feel free to theorycraft, but actual ingame experience, which you could get yourself if you ever did the effort to try things out instead of guessworking, tells other stories.

yes, my 50t lrm-hunchieIIC does on average more raw-damage than my 50t treb. damage is frikkin meaningless.
the 50t treb munches SO MANY more mechs in shorter time that it's not even close.

don't get me started on Awesome vs Noobernova

the 60t hellfire is a pretty meh lurmer/atm-mech, the 60t maddog does it SO much better, dispite being a "bad" construction;
yet here you are telling me the quirks don't matter ..


enough; feel free to ignore everything, I'm done here. Posted Image

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 02 May 2020 - 03:21 PM.


#29 SirSmokes

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 07:47 AM

No one posted the good old reliable Archer https://mech.nav-alp...e6e98c7c_ARC-2R

Edited by SirSmokes, 02 May 2020 - 07:54 AM.


#30 VonBruinwald

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 07:57 AM

View PostTeenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 02 May 2020 - 07:31 AM, said:

you use
"I think" and "should"
whereas the one thing that counts is
"IS"


I'm going to have to remember that the next time someone kicks off about XL heatspike…

#31 Horseman

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 01:06 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 02 May 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:

You're arguing a min-maxed relying on a particular quirk when he's talking about a tech-base.
The base assumption is that both sides play to their strengths, not their weaknesses.
IS has specialist missile (or specifically LRM) mechs. Clan only really gets missile cooldown quirks on mechs with too few hardpoints or too little tonnage to really boat launchers, sole exception being the MDD which can get a 10% CDR with four hardpoints (or 20% CDR with two hardpoints, YMMV as to what is more practical)

Quote

Never mind that you got to chain or 2x2 those 15's to avoid ghost heat.
So do Clan LRM boats. If you're mixing launcher sizes to avoid ghost heat, you're losing out on tube count and screwing with your burst damage potential due to uneven cooldown times.

Quote

I'm curious of the speed on that Awesome.
60.8 KPH. Leading cause of death: getting too far ahead of my bravely hiding compatriots.

#32 thievingmagpi

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 02:19 PM

worrying about ghost heat on a lrmboat lmao

#33 Konril

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Posted 03 May 2020 - 09:21 PM

View PostHorseman, on 02 May 2020 - 02:49 AM, said:

As someone who's been there and done that, trust me that it really doesn't work out that way. Clan LRMs are worse at delivering damage to target (the entire salvo is spread over time). An AWS-8R with 4xLRM-15 beats out 4xC-LRM-20 in DPS.


One Nova Cat, the NCT-B, actually comes stock with 6 C-LRM 15s, 10 tons of ammo capacity, 16 double heat sinks to keep it all cool, and a 64.8 kph top speed. Even with no missile quirks on the Nova Cat and even accounting for the faster base firing rate and shorter firing duration of the inner sphere launchers, does a +10% LRM 15 cooldown and +10% missile cooldown together add up to that much?

#34 Horseman

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Posted 03 May 2020 - 11:36 PM

View PostKonril, on 03 May 2020 - 09:21 PM, said:

does a +10% LRM 15 cooldown and +10% missile cooldown together add up to that much?

They stack with the 12% from the Skill Tree to a whopping 32% CDR, taking IS LRM15 from 4.00s CD to 2.72s CD and bumping the DPS by 52%, from 3.75 to 5.51. Times four, giving peak DPS 20.24
Your NCT's C-LRM15s have 4.3s CD PLUS 0.7s duration, reduced by skill tree 9.6% to 4.04s plus 0.7s duration for a net DPS of 3.16 for each LRM15. Times six, giving peak DPS of 18.98....

But! The AWS also has 15.5% heat gen reduction (10.5% from skill tree and 5% from quirk) versus the 8.4% your NCT gets from the skill tree. 4.5 heat per salvo for an IS LRM15 becomes 3.8, or 1.39 heat for each second of sustained fire per launcher and 5.59 for all four 15s. Your 5 heat per salvo for a C-LRM-15 becomes 4.58, or 0,96 for each second of sustained fire... but since you have six of them, that's 5.76 for all six 15s.

After the engine (XL300) and heat sinks in it (2 doubles), the AWS is working with a 43.5 ton payload, 28 tons weapons, leaving 15.5 tons for ammo, TAG and BAP (it can strip the left arm to squeeze half a ton extra). Assuming BAP and one TAG, that's 13 tons ammo.
After the engine (XL280) and heat sinks (3 doubles, you need one more to compensate for your weapons running hotter over all), the NCT is working with a 36 ton payload, 21 tons weapons, leaving 15 tons for ammo, TAG and CAP. Assuming CAP and one TAG, that's 13 tons ammo (ie: equal) which you could trade some of for heat sinks (but trust me that chances are that if you do it with more than one ton you'll most likely be running out of ammo during the match)
Two final things to note: One, the AWS can do Artemis at the expense of four tons and four slots and get more focused damage out of that than your NCT would at the expense of six tons and six slots. Two, the AWS has a 10% missile velocity quirk, bringing it's projectiles on target ever so slightly faster (265.5 with velocity skills vs 241.5 of your NCT with velocity skills).

Edited by Horseman, 03 May 2020 - 11:37 PM.


#35 Phoolan Devi

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Posted 04 May 2020 - 12:34 PM

View PostWillard Phule, on 01 May 2020 - 08:39 AM, said:

As a newer player, the first thing that you have to remember is that if you rely on lock on weapons, people that can aim are going to call you names and think less of you. That being said, as long as you can accept that, here are some "new guy missile boat guidelines:"

1. Weight. Go for the heaviest chassis you can find with the most missile hardpoints possible. Then load it down with as many LRM20s and LRM15s as you can.

2. Remember that your team is there to provide targets for you. Don't listen when they tell you to "share armor," your job is to stay in the rear where it's safe and to provide high explosive rain that doesn't discriminate between red or blue.

3. And this is the MOST important.....don't worry about getting better. Getting to the higher tiers has nothing to do with skill. It's all about hours logged. Just fill the air with "skill" until you hit T1.

Sweating salt much, my friend?

Edited by Phoolan Devi, 04 May 2020 - 12:34 PM.


#36 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 04 May 2020 - 01:34 PM

View PostHorseman, on 03 May 2020 - 11:36 PM, said:

They stack with the 12% from the Skill Tree to a whopping 32% CDR, taking IS LRM15 from 4.00s CD to 2.72s CD and bumping the DPS by 52%, from 3.75 to 5.51. Times four, giving peak DPS 20.24
Your NCT's C-LRM15s have 4.3s CD PLUS 0.7s duration, reduced by skill tree 9.6% to 4.04s plus 0.7s duration for a net DPS of 3.16 for each LRM15. Times six, giving peak DPS of 18.98....

But! The AWS also has 15.5% heat gen reduction (10.5% from skill tree and 5% from quirk) versus the 8.4% your NCT gets from the skill tree. 4.5 heat per salvo for an IS LRM15 becomes 3.8, or 1.39 heat for each second of sustained fire per launcher and 5.59 for all four 15s. Your 5 heat per salvo for a C-LRM-15 becomes 4.58, or 0,96 for each second of sustained fire... but since you have six of them, that's 5.76 for all six 15s.

After the engine (XL300) and heat sinks in it (2 doubles), the AWS is working with a 43.5 ton payload, 28 tons weapons, leaving 15.5 tons for ammo, TAG and BAP (it can strip the left arm to squeeze half a ton extra). Assuming BAP and one TAG, that's 13 tons ammo.
After the engine (XL280) and heat sinks (3 doubles, you need one more to compensate for your weapons running hotter over all), the NCT is working with a 36 ton payload, 21 tons weapons, leaving 15 tons for ammo, TAG and CAP. Assuming CAP and one TAG, that's 13 tons ammo (ie: equal) which you could trade some of for heat sinks (but trust me that chances are that if you do it with more than one ton you'll most likely be running out of ammo during the match)
Two final things to note: One, the AWS can do Artemis at the expense of four tons and four slots and get more focused damage out of that than your NCT would at the expense of six tons and six slots. Two, the AWS has a 10% missile velocity quirk, bringing it's projectiles on target ever so slightly faster (265.5 with velocity skills vs 241.5 of your NCT with velocity skills).


very good analysis mate.

just some minor additional points:
-IS-lrms group tighter, both in 'where they go' and 'when they fire'; so they kill stuff "faster" and overcome AMS better than the clan-stuff (which ofc is only fair, since weight).

-got the novacat also and in QP you can definitely go with less ammo and more DHS; by the time you run out of ammo the game is over in most cases, or at least close to it.

-and with any lrm-mech, it gets more bearable with every drink you pour yourself.

Posted Image

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 04 May 2020 - 01:38 PM.


#37 Vellron2005

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 01:40 AM

View Posteishiba, on 01 May 2020 - 06:02 AM, said:

What mechs are good missile boat options? I thought about the Maddog for a bit but then thought it probably isnt going be able to hold much ammo if i put as many missile hardpoints on it as i can. I would have to assume an assault mech would be best since it doesnt need to move.


I use Mad Dogs as LRM boats.. my build is 4xLRM15+6ERmicro with 10 tons of ammo and a light active probe - works like a charm.

Added bonus is you can fit 4 of these babies into a dropdeck Posted Image

I would also suggest a similar build on the Hellfire. With added MASC it's a very very mobile missile platform, and can easily do 4xLRM 15..

Edited by Vellron2005, 05 May 2020 - 01:41 AM.


#38 Horseman

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 02:25 AM

Maybe I should add some info on heat, because both mechs become heatcapped quickly.

The AWS heatcaps at 51, firing 13.4 shots from all launchers taken together. That's potentially 195 damage. A NCT heatcaps at 51.5 (13 DHS) or 52 (14 DHS), giving 11.24 or 11.35 shots - that's potentially 165 damage.

The AWS gets 3.62 DPS for every point of HPS whereas the NCT gets 3.29 DPS for HPS . Once they reach peak heat, AWS (12 DHS) with 8% Cool Run (2.82 dissipation) can lob another shot every 1.34s and NCT (13 DHS) with 8% CR ( 3.09 dissipation) can do that every 1.48s , cutting to 1.37s with 14 DHS.

Hmm. I might actually go and drop some of the cooldown to get that last Cool Run.

Edited by Horseman, 05 May 2020 - 12:43 PM.


#39 SirSmokes

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 09:21 AM

People talked about Treb with LRM well Treb makes hell of MRM platform as well
https://mwo.smurfy-n...1749f4004e20144

#40 Brauer

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 10:04 AM

View PostSirSmokes, on 05 May 2020 - 09:21 AM, said:

People talked about Treb with LRM well Treb makes hell of MRM platform as well
https://mwo.smurfy-n...1749f4004e20144


MRM 60 or bust.





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