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#41 SirSmokes

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 10:06 AM

View PostBrauer, on 05 May 2020 - 10:04 AM, said:

MRM 60 or bust.


I don't mind trading 10 damage too go 92 kph but yes you can take that option https://mwo.smurfy-n...22c4784baeeb8b5

Edited by SirSmokes, 05 May 2020 - 10:09 AM.


#42 Brauer

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 10:26 AM

View PostSirSmokes, on 05 May 2020 - 10:06 AM, said:


I don't mind trading 10 damage too go 92 kph but yes you can take that option https://mwo.smurfy-n...22c4784baeeb8b5


I'd also recommend at minimum one JJ on any Treb 7M build, especially if it's an mrm boat.

#43 SirSmokes

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 10:38 AM

View PostBrauer, on 05 May 2020 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'd also recommend at minimum one JJ on any Treb 7M build, especially if it's an mrm boat.


I would take this then https://mwo.smurfy-n...5033bad31b338c1

Edited by SirSmokes, 05 May 2020 - 10:38 AM.


#44 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 11:04 AM

try this:
https://mwo.smurfy-n...f3226df28773dab
Posted Image

just shaved off some armor and upped the 30 to a 40. I'd also suggest to always put the bigger stuff on the right side,
as the constant Rotatoe-ing in QP makes it slighly safer there.


you can drop a JJ or 2 for some of the armor back or up the ammo, if you prefer that (3JJ are fine still)

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 05 May 2020 - 11:06 AM.


#45 Konril

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 11:31 AM

View PostHorseman, on 03 May 2020 - 11:36 PM, said:

They stack with the 12% from the Skill Tree to a whopping 32% CDR, taking IS LRM15 from 4.00s CD to 2.72s CD and bumping the DPS by 52%, from 3.75 to 5.51. Times four, giving peak DPS 20.24 Your NCT's C-LRM15s have 4.3s CD PLUS 0.7s duration, reduced by skill tree 9.6% to 4.04s plus 0.7s duration for a net DPS of 3.16 for each LRM15. Times six, giving peak DPS of 18.98....

View PostHorseman, on 05 May 2020 - 02:25 AM, said:

Maybe I should add some info on heat, because both mechs become heatcapped quickly. The AWS heatcaps at 51, firing 13.4 shots from all launchers taken together...


Wow! You did your homework. I certainly didn't think to account for the differences in the heavy and assault skill trees, so I thought it would be a much closer race. Oops! Score 1 point for team Awesome.

Although in all honesty, I don't think I have ever burnt through more than 10 tons of LRM ammo in a quick play match.

It seems you have started to notice, but there are actually two relevant DPS numbers to the overall meta. What you have computed above is an alpha DPS number. This is usually the most popular number to look at as in battle nobody is vulnerable 100% of the time, and people who can do the more damage in a limited window of opportunity usually win an engagement. The weakness of the alpha number and building around it is that the mech eventually needs to cool off, which takes the mech out of the fight for a time.

The other number is sustained DPS. It is computed in a very different way. Taking your 12 heat sink LRM 15 Awesome as an example, as you said each LRM 15 costs 4.5 heat to fire, less your efficiency. So that comes out to 3.896 heat per shot. 12 heat sinks comes out to 2.64 heat per second. Cool run can bump that up slightly so 2.904 h/s. 3.896h divided by 2.904 h/s equals a shot every 1.342 seconds. 15 damage per shot divided by 1.342 shots per second equals 11.18 sustained DPS.

In the stock Nova Cat's case, 16 heat sinks gets a 3.52 h/s dissipation. Bump up to 3.872 h/s with cool run. The C-LRM 15 needs 5 heat to fire. Less efficiency makes it 4.613. 4.613 h divided by 3.872 h/s equals a shot every 1.191 seconds. 15 damage per shot divided by 1.191 shots per second is sustained 12.59 dps.

The table is turned, slightly.

When looking at sustain, the Awesome gets to full DPS with only 3 launchers, with the 4th only increasing alpha. Dropping a launcher would free 7 tons, but in order to put in more heatsinks, you would have to drop the Endo steel, which will cost you 4 tons and leave you with 3 tons to work with. 15 double heat sinks will get you 13.96 sustained DPS, but your alpha DPS drops to 15.18 for only having 3 launchers.

With the Nova Cat, dropping a launcher for heat sinks is a slightly smaller modification. 3.5 tons freed and with space actually available means you can get 3 more heat sinks in and still have a half ton extra. The sustained DPS increases to 14.95 while the alpha drops to 15.81.

The score so far Awesome: 1 (Alpha team), Nova Cat: 1 (Sustain team). The Clan's hotter launchers get balanced by the fact that the Clans have more space and weight for heat sinks, so that ends up a net positive for the Clan LRM users.

Artemis is a really weird can of worms once opened. If I were to Artemis upgrade the Nova Cat, there is no reason to stick with LRM 15s. The Artemis C-LRM 10 happens to fit in the same 3.5 tons and 2 slots that the standard C-LRM 15 does. That swap would cost me some "raw" DPS, both alpha and sustain. But going from a 5.05 spread to 70% of a 4.05 spread (2.835?) is totally worth it. More of that damage is going where it actually counts. With the Awesome, assuming that 4 LRM 15 configuration, is that extra 4 tons coming out of your ammo or your engine? Downgrading to LRM 10s to upgrade to Artemis will work and give you 4 extra tons to work with, but then you aren't taking advantage of the Awesome's LRM 15 quirk anymore. So I'm not really sure how to work that.

In fact, If I wanted to go full-out assault LRM-boat Inner Sphere style, I would probably choose the STK-3H. It has a more modest -5% LRM 20 cooldown and -5% missile cooldown but also gets a huge -10% LRM 20 heat and -10% missile heat. So, XL 255, 3 Artemis LRM 20s, 3 double heat sinks, 9 tons ammo, BAP, TAG, and max armor should do it.

NARC is also a fun option to work with. It will cost you a missile hard point, but a good NARC hit will get you and your team's LRM users 20 or 30 more seconds of "opportunity" or force the opponent out of the fight for that duration. The Clan version is lighter and has a longer range with no demerits at all.

I think the options might add up to an extra credit point for Team Clan. However, PGI does seem to have did work to keep things balanced.

#46 SirSmokes

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 11:49 AM

View PostTeenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 05 May 2020 - 11:04 AM, said:

try this:
https://mwo.smurfy-n...f3226df28773dab
Posted Image

just shaved off some armor and upped the 30 to a 40. I'd also suggest to always put the bigger stuff on the right side,
as the constant Rotatoe-ing in QP makes it slighly safer there.


you can drop a JJ or 2 for some of the armor back or up the ammo, if you prefer that (3JJ are fine still)


No thanks not a fan of the desynced launchers it's a good build not a fan of the desync myself

#47 VonBruinwald

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 11:59 AM

View PostKonril, on 05 May 2020 - 11:31 AM, said:

It seems you have started to notice, but there are actually two relevant DPS numbers to the overall meta. What you have computed above is an alpha DPS number. This is usually the most popular number to look at as in battle nobody is vulnerable 100% of the time, and people who can do the more damage in a limited window of opportunity usually win an engagement. The weakness of the alpha number and building around it is that the mech eventually needs to cool off, which takes the mech out of the fight for a time.


Burst vs. Sustained DPS is a question for playstyle:

If you're gonna peek n' poke, take burst, you've got the opportunity to cool off behind rocks.
If you're gonna push take sustained, you can't afford to run out of heat.

Now with lurms, I say always go sustained, they're a DoT weapon, their lack of pinpoint makes alpha's somewhat redundant.

#48 Brauer

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 12:45 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 05 May 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:


Burst vs. Sustained DPS is a question for playstyle:

If you're gonna peek n' poke, take burst, you've got the opportunity to cool off behind rocks.
If you're gonna push take sustained, you can't afford to run out of heat.

Now with lurms, I say always go sustained, they're a DoT weapon, their lack of pinpoint makes alpha's somewhat redundant.


Alpha is definitely still relevant for lrms. Targets can get to cover, locks can be broken, etc. so alpha damage helps you actually get damage in when the opportunity presents itself. IS lrms generally are better than clan lrms for this reason, and this is helped by IS having some great lrm boats (TBT-7M, AWS-8R, ANH-MB, FNR-5E, etc.).

EDIT: Not to mention all of those lurm boats I mentioned have perfectly adequate sustain.

Edited by Brauer, 05 May 2020 - 12:45 PM.


#49 Horseman

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Posted 05 May 2020 - 01:23 PM

View PostKonril, on 05 May 2020 - 11:31 AM, said:

With the Awesome, assuming that 4 LRM 15 configuration, is that extra 4 tons coming out of your ammo or your engine? Downgrading to LRM 10s to upgrade to Artemis will work and give you 4 extra tons to work with, but then you aren't taking advantage of the Awesome's LRM 15 quirk anymore. So I'm not really sure how to work that.
BAP, a little ammo and stripping down left arm: https://mech.nav-alp...4e45305f_AWS-8R

View PostKonril, on 05 May 2020 - 11:31 AM, said:

Wow! You did your homework. I certainly didn't think to account for the differences in the heavy and assault skill trees, so I thought it would be a much closer race.
It's not the difference in heavy vs assault skill trees but in IS vs Clan skill trees. Clan mechs do not get as much out of the cooldown and heat gen nodes in Firepower tree as IS mechs do.

Quote

Although in all honesty, I don't think I have ever burnt through more than 10 tons of LRM ammo in a quick play match.
I did. Even 12-13 tons at times.

Quote

It seems you have started to notice, but there are actually two relevant DPS numbers to the overall meta. What you have computed above is an alpha DPS number. This is usually the most popular number to look at as in battle nobody is vulnerable 100% of the time, and people who can do the more damage in a limited window of opportunity usually win an engagement. The weakness of the alpha number and building around it is that the mech eventually needs to cool off, which takes the mech out of the fight for a time.

Quote

When looking at sustain, the Awesome gets to full DPS with only 3 launchers, with the 4th only increasing alpha. Dropping a launcher would free 7 tons, but in order to put in more heatsinks, you would have to drop the Endo steel, which will cost you 4 tons and leave you with 3 tons to work with. 15 double heat sinks will get you 13.96 sustained DPS, but your alpha DPS drops to 15.18 for only having 3 launchers.
150 hours and close to fourteen hundred matches logged with the AWS tells me that you aren't actually going to have consistent target locks throughout the match. Your alpha DPS matters whenever you hit a cool shot or for any reason had time to cool down due to how the match progressed. And yes, I've tried 3xALRM15 and the 4xALRM15 or 4xLRM15 builds work out better.

There's another thing about the NCT and AWS that I've missed because it's been a long time since I've touched the NCT: lower arm actuators. NCT doesn't have them, where the AWS does. The ability to lock targets from a wider range than directly ahead of you is quite useful for a LRM boat in my experience, even if it's locking someone who tries to charge you as you kite away from them.

View PostTeenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 05 May 2020 - 11:04 AM, said:

try this:
https://mwo.smurfy-n...f3226df28773dab
Posted Image
just shaved off some armor and upped the 30 to a 40. I'd also suggest to always put the bigger stuff on the right side,
as the constant Rotatoe-ing in QP makes it slighly safer there.
you can drop a JJ or 2 for some of the armor back or up the ammo, if you prefer that (3JJ are fine still)
I run mine quite similar too: https://mech.nav-alp...ff8ec0eb_TBT-7M

Edited by Horseman, 05 May 2020 - 01:30 PM.


#50 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 06 May 2020 - 04:05 AM

View PostHorseman, on 05 May 2020 - 01:23 PM, said:

I run mine quite similar too: https://mech.nav-alp...ff8ec0eb_TBT-7M


It's definitely the better build; I just wanted to show smokes how-to-better his one without much effort, but .. wasn't needed I guess ;)

#51 SirSmokes

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Posted 06 May 2020 - 04:32 AM

View PostTeenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 06 May 2020 - 04:05 AM, said:


It's definitely the better build; I just wanted to show smokes how-to-better his one without much effort, but .. wasn't needed I guess Posted Image


If you want a bigger alpha great I like speed and a flat no desyned alpha. Anyways not sure why people feel need to get in to a mech build **** measuring contest NO mine is BETTER!!! I am not here for that and I am just not like that anyways have a great day man

#52 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 06 May 2020 - 05:37 AM

yeesh.. talk about biting a helping hand.. If you prefer your build, good for you, go for it, and be happy with it.

#53 Brain Cancer

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Posted 06 May 2020 - 07:28 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 05 May 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:


Burst vs. Sustained DPS is a question for playstyle:

If you're gonna peek n' poke, take burst, you've got the opportunity to cool off behind rocks.
If you're gonna push take sustained, you can't afford to run out of heat.

Now with lurms, I say always go sustained, they're a DoT weapon, their lack of pinpoint makes alpha's somewhat redundant.


It's honestly a balance between the two. Too few tubes, and even modest AMS renders you useless regardless of how constant your fire rate is. Too many, and you struggle to actually deal damage if someone's smart enough to bait your big alphas.

Ideally, though that can be under the control of the pilot if you're thoughtful about what's downwind. You got 60 tubes? Make sure you can at least alternate 30-30 shots and keep the extra hot alphas for when you have to put all the missiles in to bypass AMS or only have that limited window for a hit that's going to close while you cool down anyway. Yeah, you might have that LRM 90+ unit, but you won't have the heat to put more than one big flight in the air before you're taking a cooldown or melting the 'Mech on round two- and the guy who cycles through his launchers will get more missiles in the air in the same time in the long run.

#54 Konril

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Posted 07 May 2020 - 04:38 PM

View PostBrain Cancer, on 06 May 2020 - 07:28 PM, said:

It's honestly a balance between the two. Too few tubes, and even modest AMS renders you useless regardless of how constant your fire rate is. Too many, and you struggle to actually deal damage if someone's smart enough to bait your big alphas.


I agree with this, too.

View PostHorseman, on 05 May 2020 - 01:23 PM, said:

150 hours and close to fourteen hundred matches logged with the AWS tells me that you aren't actually going to have consistent target locks throughout the match. Your alpha DPS matters whenever you hit a cool shot or for any reason had time to cool down due to how the match progressed.


Oh dear! Uuh... Let's see... Just a moment...
Counting just my LRM carrier mechs:
CP-10-Q: 122 matches. 13:40 playtime,
HGN-733C: 110 matches, 8:12 playtime,
HGN-733P: 84 matches, 7:58 playtime,
HMN-C: 59 matches, 7:29 playtime,
JM6-S: 129 matches, 13:08 playtime,
KFX-Prime(I): 179 matches, 1 day 00:09 playtime,
ON1-VA: 40 matches, 4:12 playtime,
SCR-D: 112 matches, 12:50 playtime,
SMN-B: 151 matches, 17:40 playtime,
TNS-5T: 27 matches, 2:42 playtime,
WVR-7K: 102 matches, 11:16 playtime.

Grand total: 1115 matches, 123:16 playtime. Drat! You seem to have more free time than I do. Posted Image

One certainly isn't going to have a target 100% of the time, so if your mech isn't running hot, while you're waiting for the next opportunity to appear, you're DPS is going to take a bigger hit than someone who does run hot enough to cool down during these times. In this case an Alpha DPS build is going to have an advantage over a more sustained DPS build. However the opposite can often be seen as well. Hiding behind a rock to cool down can be an invitation or an opponent to push in and overrun your position. That can go both ways, so an opponent who hides behind rocks or buildings to cool down can be pushed and flushed out even when you're piloting an LRM boat. Either case, this tends to deny both sides the opportunity to cool down, and people start popping cool shots left and right.

Aiming for being able to sustain your alpha DPS for at least 15 to 20 seconds seems to be a good compromise that will let you handle most situations.

Also, I have become a huge fan of the NARC missile system. A NARC hit will spot the target for 30 seconds and tighten indirect fire spread to their direct fire values. One typically can't stay in one spot for too long, so using all 30 seconds of that time is difficult. But 20 seconds of being able to accurately lob missiles at a target works better when you can actually keep your fire rate up for 20 seconds.

Mobility is actually a lot more useful than people want to give it credit for. The Stormcrow, the Summoner, and that weird Kit Fox are among my best winners. Numbers are slowly changing over time, but the 3 LRM 10 + NARC Stormcrow is sitting at 1.60, my 4 LRM 10 + NARC Summoner is sitting at 1.32, and that silly money generating Kit Fox I bought way back in the day using mixed 1 LRM 10, 2 LRM 5s, NARC, and ECM happens to have 1.39 W/L ratio. My overall W/L is about 1.06. So there must be something there. But I'm not sure how to properly explain it, yet.

The LRM 15 launcher seems to be really popular. That is why I chose the stock Nova Cat to compare to the Awesome. But I personally find it something of a lemon. The LRM 10 has a tighter spread and faster firing time than the LRM 15. That means with a 30 tube count 3 LRM 10s will kill faster and use less ammo doing so than 2 LRM 15s. It's like having a built-in -20% missile spread quirk, although that does come at a slight cost in heat. Going the other direction, the LRM 20 doesn't actually get a worse spread than the LRM 15. It is only 7.5% slower, but has the benefit of generating less heat per tube. With a 60 tube count, using 3 LRM 20 instead of 4 LRM 15s is like having an extra -10% heat quirk and frees up that 4th tube slot for a NARC launcher if you want it.

The Awesome's 10% missile cooldown and 5% missile heat generation is all good. But if that 10% LRM 15 cooldown was something else, I would seriously be tempted to run it with a 3 LRM 20 + NARC loadout. (Please don't mention the fact that they won't fit with an IS XL engine. I already found that out.) So instead, I chose the -10% heat and 15% missile cooldown of the ON1-VA. (Please don't mention the fact that 2 LRM 20s won't fit in a single arm. I already found that out, too.)

But, there it is.

#55 LordNothing

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Posted 07 May 2020 - 04:42 PM

theres only 2 kinds of missile boats i use, srm boats, and atm boats and always in a close in skirmisher role, or a dive bomber for srm lights.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 May 2020 - 04:43 PM.


#56 Brain Cancer

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Posted 07 May 2020 - 07:45 PM

View PostKonril, on 07 May 2020 - 04:38 PM, said:

The LRM 15 launcher seems to be really popular. That is why I chose the stock Nova Cat to compare to the Awesome. But I personally find it something of a lemon. The LRM 10 has a tighter spread and faster firing time than the LRM 15. That means with a 30 tube count 3 LRM 10s will kill faster and use less ammo doing so than 2 LRM 15s. It's like having a built-in -20% missile spread quirk, although that does come at a slight cost in heat. Going the other direction, the LRM 20 doesn't actually get a worse spread than the LRM 15. It is only 7.5% slower, but has the benefit of generating less heat per tube. With a 60 tube count, using 3 LRM 20 instead of 4 LRM 15s is like having an extra -10% heat quirk and frees up that 4th tube slot for a NARC launcher if you want it.


There's method to the 15 madness.

Namely, the 15 and 5 are most efficient in terms of tonnage use. Two LRM 15's are 14 (7 if Clan) tons. 3 LRM 10s are 15 (7.5 Clan) tons. If you use Artemis, this gets wider- two 15's use 2 tons for Art IV, 3 10's use 3. Ghost heat matters for larger numbers of launchers, of course- but that really applies when you're using more than 3 10's or two larger launchers. Quad 10's alpha-firing will put 40 missiles in the air faster, but heat up significantly more and because of the higher ROF, will spike pretty darn quickly going all out, and with Artemis you'll end up with more tonnage to deal with both in guidance for your launchers and more sinks to handle the extra load. That being said, I've put Orions out there with quad-10 and it's fun and effective, but I'd take A+LRM 20x2 for other chassis. Sometimes, with limited hardpoints you just gotta.

#57 fattbat

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Posted 03 January 2021 - 02:38 AM

I just read all the posted information on DPS from the above mentioned mechs and I would like to add my views on LRM mechs.
I prefer a LRM mech that has ECM and uses AMS. The Archer Tempest has been my favorite for these reasons, 1) ECM along with tag helps me stay off the enemies radar and tag targets and provide ECM & AMS coverage for my frontline teammates. The ECM and AMS I provide along with either MRMs or LRMs can more often then not help to win or make a match more competitive. Same thing when I play my ECM and 3 AMS Kit fox, When I play my assaults I hope that there is a friendly ECM & Ams player near me, unfortunately it’s not very common.

#58 MechaGnome

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Posted 03 January 2021 - 07:15 PM

I saw the dervish hero in a match it looked like a solid medium missile boat.. took a while to kill and was fast moving.

And its pink nothing says fear me like driving a pink mech.

Edited by Samial, 03 January 2021 - 07:16 PM.


#59 account redo v1

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Posted 03 January 2021 - 08:30 PM

I saw someone do well in a battlemaster and I assume they used lrms. To that end, I plan on 4lrm20 battlemaster because I don't like engaging face to face. Alpha strike 80 Inner Sphere lrm should get through ams. The next biggest problem will be ecm, but we'll see I guess.





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