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Uac Burst Duration And Double Tap Timing?


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#1 Arugela

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 09:50 PM

I'm trying to figure out absolute max heat I can do with a mech with double tap and other weapons.

Does anyone have the info or know how long the time to fire uacs is and how long it takes for a double tap to go. I'm over heat, but if I can use my dissipation and know it's length I can get the fire time in for alpha strikes with double tap.

I'm using 2 uac/10's and 1 uac/20 and trying to figure out how many lasers I can use with it before heat causes problem in a double tap alpha. I know the info used to be around, but I can't find it anymore.

Also, does anyone know if heat reduction of 10.5% is x/1.105 or x*0.895?

I'm assuming dissipation and increase heat cap are multipliers and x*1.15 or x*1.1.

Edited by Arugela, 23 April 2020 - 09:52 PM.


#2 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 10:01 PM

X/1.105 is not a reduction by 10.5%, X*0,895 is.

#3 Arugela

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 10:04 PM

I wasn't sure. I think the reduction from ferro uses a x/1.2 to get the appropriate weight per ton. I wasn't sure which thing they used for the game.

normal weight per ton of ferro is 0.03125 and to get the weight you use 0.03125/1.2=0.02604166666666666667. I think. Else it's 0.03125*.8=0.025. I'll have to double check if it works out. I thought it didn't for some reason.

According to smurphy it is 0.03125/1.2 for clan mech armor tonnage. Wasn't sure which way they applied heat.

I only need like 1.25 heat so it might fire safely, but I'm trying to figure out how much it can eek out. Not sure on the duration of ballistics yet or the double tap timer. Is it 0.5 like with chain fire?


I'm trying to fit this in and looking for more heat logic to see if it can safely alpha strike. I'm hoping the heat for lasers isn't instant now. Then I could use longer fire times as logic to gain damage. Which is just now dawning on me. But I need to know the ballistics also. Reading the heat tutorials now.

I have to see if either of these can eek out managable heat: ><

https://mwo.smurfy-n...1e459104839c77d
https://mwo.smurfy-n...e34d318c4ea90ec

Edited by Arugela, 23 April 2020 - 11:17 PM.


#4 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 10:36 PM

your numbers are completely off, I think.
Ferro increases the armour points from 320/10tons to 358,4/10tons. Of course you can allocate only full increments of armour points. The weight per point of standard armour is therefore 0.03125, while the weight of a point of ferro is 0.0279, which is exactly 12% that standard armour is heavier than ferro armour. This is for IS tech, of course.
Now Clan Ferro gives you 384 points of armour per 10tons which equals 0.0260 tons per point of armour.

I realize our numbers match. You just got confused about increase and reduction armour protection is increased, not weight is reduced. Heat on the other hand, is reduced by quirks and skills.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 23 April 2020 - 11:00 PM.


#5 Arugela

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:16 AM

https://mwo.smurfy-n...28e5bb8a1584cdb

I think I can get this much out of it. But I can probably push it farther once I figure out ballistics timings. Although the laser logic may cover that already. Might need to stick another heat sink back on.

If I have a 5% bonsus from the quirk and a 10.5% bonus from skills would that be:

1. x*0.95*.0895=0.85025
2. x*0.845

Are they additive or multiplicative. I'm assuming multiplicative. I'm hoping it's additive as it would give me a hair more stuff. That or hope there is a timing trick with the placement of lasers or something to get an extra millisecond of time.

Edited by Arugela, 24 April 2020 - 12:27 AM.


#6 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:26 AM

additive as far as i know

what are you trying here? That thing doesn't even have enough ammo to last half a match...

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 24 April 2020 - 12:28 AM.


#7 Arugela

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:31 AM

If so, then that is a hypothetical 157.5 alpha strike dire wolf. And here is my best guess at the skill tree: https://kitlaan.gitl...00000#s=Weapons


Take out armor to conver 1/2t ammo to full ton and use the bonus. Torso twist speed is to try to get pre decoupling torso speeds and yaw so it can use the arms when doing a full frontal side to side torso twist. this maximizes armor usage and keeps you alive to kill efficiently. I would need to test the agility though.

The other one can probably similarly drop down to 18 DHS and have a jumpjet if the same thing is done with DWF-S instead of a DWF-UV. But with slightly less damage a single jump jet and a little more ammo.

The original version uses 3srm6's and 4 small pulse lasers for quicker return fire time. It's going for cannopener basically. Use the ammo wisely.

Here is a good ammo layout. This is how I used to run it predecoupling without the tech tree bonuses(and with the older weaopns layout.): https://mwo.smurfy-n...e1e1ca5711f0f1d / https://mwo.smurfy-n...93c5846b4e7cced

https://kitlaan.gitl...00000#s=Weapons / 2 <- More optimized.

Approximately 35 second of fire fore each weapon. 14 double taps with the uac10/s, 8 with the Uac20, and 7 with the Missiles. It is enough if used wisely.

And here is the jump jet with optimized heat and ammo: https://mwo.smurfy-n...213efd97ae75617
https://kitlaan.gitl...00000#s=Weapons

Edited by Arugela, 26 April 2020 - 11:26 PM.


#8 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:44 AM

You know it's not about alpha if you can't dodge into cover easily? Or have the cooling capacity too chill your mech after your alpha? How do you think you get into the 130m optimal for your 5 HSLs with a slow brick of a mech that will be shot from 5 times that range? And if you are there, how will you do damage with your atms?
Seriously, this build is nothing but assisting the enemy.

#9 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:49 AM

So just troll build. Kill one or 2 and be out of ammo. (Prob not even this because most mech will survive the first salvo and eat u while heat capped)

If u are not hard trolling, u just found (one) the reason for your bad ingame performance.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 24 April 2020 - 12:53 AM.


#10 Arugela

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 01:16 AM

You have to tank correctly with it to get close. It's easy. You just go back and forth from center about 45 degrees and it will spread the damage all over the chest and arms. I'm not trolling. Before engine decoupling this was very strong. If it can still tank correctly it gives you the chance to frontal tank and take time aiming at the target. It's about getting in good hits. You don't need cover if you now not to get into trouble and how to spread damage. You don't want to use peaking with this mech.

Unless there is a good chance to one shot kill something you focus on mitigating damage first. It has to power to one shot kill at will. So, you can remove threats from the map to help reduce damage. Uac/80 can kill mediums and lights with one hit. it's not hard to aim into things.

Edited by Arugela, 24 April 2020 - 01:18 AM.


#11 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 01:34 AM

I'd really like to see your performance in this. I think reality will teach you something.
By the way, how are you goint to tank with zero skillpoints in the survival skilltree?

Anyway, I'm not going to waste any more time here. Good luck, you will need lots of it.

#12 Arugela

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 08:06 AM

The same way I used to. This was my main mechbefore the game stopped working in on linux. You just have to learn to tank in a particular way to maximize armor. Everything spreads very easily. And people tank very bad which makes it even easier. The counter to this is knowing how to get on the sides or actually legging stuff. This isn't a new fantasy build. It's just upgrading an older pre skill tree build. It is dependent on agility stats from the old engine values. Not sure if it can make up for it though as it was perfectly balance for this pre decoupling to pull this sort of build off. Depends if you can get the same stats back in essence. That is why I added the yaw speed bonus. Hopefully it only needs one.

Basically, to use this you have to focus on a play style where learn to keep distance, think out the incoming enemy, and use the ability to quickly kill enemies to keep them from getting to the sides or at angles that increase damage concentration. Then when they stop fireing return fire. Which is relatively quick(although the super heavies are double the small pulse lasers I used to use.). This type of mech is a very good pusher if you know how to use it and judge the situation. I don't think I died in it much in that build. Also, the point is you are trying to keep damage directly ahead of you and twisting back and forth 45 degrees from center. But you also need do apply some logic if you have multiple enemies to average the damage while twisting to spread it completely evenly. You should be able to get it down to deep red and still basically tank safely depending on the weapons. Which IS has a lot of lasers and spread weapons which are easy. The issue is the tanking is dependent on yaw and yaw speed to get it across both the ct/torsos and the arms to increase the pool of armor. It's a trick with how the Direwolf was designed originally. It had the ability to do this. It's literally the predecessor to the annihilator, but the annihilator was designed to do shorter range longer fire times because of rotare so it's even easier to do and more effective. The direwolf is the active version where you use short range faster burst or longer range long fire. It's literally as effective as the annihilator at the most extreme. Just depends if you can get the stats with the skill tree it had prior. you can easily tank 4 people or maybe more becuase you can easily one shot kill anything smaller than an assault. And even those can die if they have big ct areas in one hit. Obviously this is not that great for faction play though. Unless you can really maximize it. and cover open ground for your team and are super careful or efficient.

Here is the old build: https://mwo.smurfy-n...3f8e41670e140b7

I can probably reduce the heat sinks to get even more ammo. Unless I considered the duration and didn't realize it. I knew more of the game rules back then.

Here is a version with more ammo based on the small pulse lasers: https://mwo.smurfy-n...b61eb832f3d713e
https://kitlaan.gitl...00000#s=Weapons <-1440 damage potential.

And jump jets with no artemis and 11 tons of ammo: https://mwo.smurfy-n...fee377faa143d07
https://kitlaan.gitl...00000#s=Weapons <- More optimized. <- 2140 damage potential.

Edited by Arugela, 24 April 2020 - 11:26 AM.


#13 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 08:50 AM

So what exactly are u looking for? Advice or do u want to teach the world how to play your frankenstein mech. Pls dont teach new players this terrybad behaviour. They might think it is a good build and waste hours of grinding.

This is not board game! So get rid of pretty much everything u know from your tabletop time. It will just hint u in the wrong direction more often than not.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 24 April 2020 - 08:57 AM.


#14 Horseman

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Posted 26 April 2020 - 01:57 AM

View PostArugela, on 23 April 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

I'm trying to figure out absolute max heat I can do with a mech with double tap and other weapons.
Does anyone have the info or know how long the time to fire uacs is and how long it takes for a double tap to go. I'm over heat, but if I can use my dissipation and know it's length I can get the fire time in for alpha strikes with double tap.
https://mwomercs.com.../list/full.json
NumFiring is the number of projectiles per salvo. Volleydelay is the delay between projectiles (for weapons that fire more than one)

Quote

I'm using 2 uac/10's and 1 uac/20 and trying to figure out how many lasers I can use with it before heat causes problem in a double tap alpha. I know the info used to be around, but I can't find it anymore.
The answer is: none. Double-tapping a UAC20 triggers a heat penalty and eats 50% of your heat capacity in one go.

#15 Arugela

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 02:52 PM

Finally got in game. It's impossible to aim the mouse at anything now... And if you can you can't wiggle your mech to tank anymore. What did they do to this game? This used to be a beautiful mech build...

The heat values in smurfy don't seem correct either. It should max it out in one alpha... No idea what is going on anymore. This game has been turned into an impossible to play handheld twitch game. It has nothing to do with the game I played 3 years ago.

I literally couldn't aim at the crotch or face of a mech if I tried to... Why did they ruin this game so annoying kids could play it?! I can barely get it to aim at an assault mech let along target a tiny component now. I used to be really good at this.

Nice ruining a game.

Edited by Arugela, 02 May 2020 - 02:56 PM.


#16 Biomechtric

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 03:28 PM

View PostArugela, on 02 May 2020 - 02:52 PM, said:

Finally got in game. It's impossible to aim the mouse at anything now... And if you can you can't wiggle your mech to tank anymore. What did they do to this game? This used to be a beautiful mech build...

The heat values in smurfy don't seem correct either. It should max it out in one alpha... No idea what is going on anymore. This game has been turned into an impossible to play handheld twitch game. It has nothing to do with the game I played 3 years ago.

I literally couldn't aim at the crotch or face of a mech if I tried to... Why did they ruin this game so annoying kids could play it?! I can barely get it to aim at an assault mech let along target a tiny component now. I used to be really good at this.

Nice ruining a game.

Except your builds were never viable, not even that magic time 3 years ago you talk of so fondly.
While there has been an engine de-sync that hurt some mechs badly(Kodiak for example) it didn't do so for the Dire Wolf, it became comparatively better as it already had a small engine & hence the de-sync didn't really affect it.
You talk of torso twisting while aiming with the arms at the same time?? Please explain how you perform this amazing feat, please do. Oh & please also tell us how your Dire Wolf is moving said arms WITH NO LOWER ARM ACTUATORS.
You should not be running mechs that hit anywhere near 100% on a single alpha when you carry as few heatsinks as you have been showing in your 'viable' builds
There have been zero changes in the aim mechanics in the FIVE years I have been playing other than cockpit shake when you fire a Heavy Gauss so again, please explain the changes that PGI coded for you & you alone.
Did I miss anything?

#17 Arugela

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 04:17 PM

I didn't say I aimed with the arms on the direworld while tanking(I wanted to make one of those out of an annihilator.). I tanked then shot back between shots during their CD on the direwolf. And yes I used to do that and there were better tanking methods that got nerfed back then(Agility dependent ones.). The build is viable and was very powerful. But Now I can't even get the mouse to aim on a mech 100m away... It literally wobbles back and forth with with 0 mouse sensitivity. It's unbearable.

And I can do two alphas with ease using full heat skills. Why don't you learn the heat mechanics first. I don't know how you think 62 base is unusable. It's very easy to boat. That isn't the problem. The current problem is the smurfy heat capacity seems to be too low throwing my numbers off.

BTW, I now have a g402 mouse(from 2014...) with more DPI(4000 max.), but this is ridiculous. I can't aim and turn my mech all the way to the sides now. And it won't focus on a spot without dithering all over the mech or even off to the sides of it. It's horribly written. Their code doesn't remotely deal with any remotely modern or old hardware correctly. I'm going to assume this is some nonsense to make damage spread like in the tabletop and other games to make it so we can't focus fire on portions of the mech anymore. Edit: half got this fixed. One of the settings wasn't down like I though.


I'm sorry, but every person in the match can't aim their mech. But the other side magically can. This game is rigged. It's impossible to get the mouse to stay straight. You can watch it in the view after you die. It's impossible to aim now. They have messed this game up completely. This stuff should fundamentally be correct out of the box. I'm not using a complicated mech. And my hardware is as ancient as this game.

https://www.youtube....eature=emb_logo

This is how I remember aiming. You can get on any mech spot you desired...

BTW, with the tanking thing. The reason people did 90 degrees to the arm was because people showed them a few rare mech situations where the nub of the arm could absorb all damage after being destroyed. This was a niche for certain mechs. The base tank is 45/45 from center. If you have a mech with more on one side you adjust it something like 60/30 or 50/40 to proportionally spend more time on the larger component to even it across all 5 upper components. This is to spread damage as evenly as possible. The stuff people do today is just copy paste from stuff and they never learn more or realized why they were being told it. You can see some people accidentally start doing the proper tank method in videos, but they don't realize it and learn to keep doing this. 90 degress to the arm is worse as you spend time on smaller components. It's only good on some niche IS mechs(And still not neccesarily optimal. Notice these mechs used to have very fast torso speeds. And for a reason.). General tanking is different. Especially for most larger mechs. If I could still do this on my dire wolf I would have 80/120/80. Adding 15% armor to this is only adding 42 extra. Adding in both arms adds 136 armor for more than 3 times the effectiveness. The coupled engines were literally perfectly setting the agility and torso speed to do this for the appropriate mechs. We need the ability to do this again. Most of the mechs good at this were the point of the spear tanking mechs. All you needed to counter was more than 0 teamwork and hitting anything to lower dps. We basically need an option to have coupled engines back and different skill tree values to go with it. And, sorry, I used the direwolf extensively. It was my main mech. I knew how to use it well in that configuration. The other downside of 90 degree arm twisting is it takes 90 degrees to get back giving less time to fire on reversing mechs. So forward was faster to get in hits. Although 90 to the arm combined with forward gave optimal tanking for uneven armor layouts and if you could arm aim sideways optimal return fire. Those method were supposed to be combined. 90 full to the arm was a glitch cheat from nub tanking. And sadly too many people never learned past this because of all the bad examples of people not realizing what the nub tanking really was or where that method came from. Each mech is a little unique to it's geometry and purpose though. And perfectly balance geometry and agility wise pre decoupling. they could also allow coupling with all the old bonuses and slot items as it would give unique setups. Then you could fight coupled vs decoupled. One with static bonuses to all weapons for things like CD and then coupled with individual control. It would be interesting if not too broken.

The tanking is needed more than ever with the increase in damage across the board.

Edited by Arugela, 02 May 2020 - 08:26 PM.


#18 Biomechtric

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 11:59 PM

hAHAHAHAHHahahahaha Yea, the old 'it's not me that's bad, the game is rigged', this says it all guys.

PGI has not changed the aim mechanics, if YOU can't aim it's YOU that's at fault!! Don't blame the game that no one else is having a problem with(& yes I mean this even if it's your game on your system which has files that are corrupted).

PGI please fix the PSR system, this guy here is why it needs to be done. A bad player with even worse advice should not, ever be out of T4 especially spewing this kind of nonsense that could very well be heard by a new player & acted on.
The builds you have shown us have ALL been horrendously bad, in many many ways that we have tried to give advice on but nope, this person knows it all already & won't even consider what others are saying.
If you want to think about these builds, please feel free, letting others know these thoughts when they are this bad though is just plain embarrassing yourself & setting a whole load of folks against you that it makes sense for you to be friendly with, you know the community you seem to want to be a part of.
People will only put up with pig headed stupidity for so long, I'm at that point so all I will say is enjoy being bad at the game, you ain't going to anywhere but the bottom 30% of players so I will thankfully never have to put up with this ruining a match.

#19 Arugela

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Posted 03 May 2020 - 06:24 AM

Sorry, no, the aiming is still horrible. I used to be able to get pin point accuracy on components like in the video. It's still extremely difficult because of the movements. Nothing I change in the settings is helping. And this stuff should be auto handled or something in the settings. I should not have to adjust a bunch of stuff to get basic aiming abilities. They don't have to not change the aiming. They just have to not change the aiming(via updating the code). I'm betting it's the DPI, but the mouse is from near the games creation. This stuff should not be a problem. I don't care what the issue is it shouldn't be there. This game used to be much easier to aim and the mouse logic didn't make things float all over the enemy mechs.

The mouse only has 4 settings. If those aren't good enough the game needs to make up for it. And having players do it is not idea. It should just query the mouse and auto set it. Or have a button to get auto base settings that should be stable. I guarantee you they have people that know enough about the graphics and game to make a quick adjust button to make all mouse start at a default setting across hardware. Even a button would would help in the settings area if it detected stuff and got it in the same starting point.

You are also probably wrong that, "nothing," was changed with aiming like most things on these forums. There have probably been updates and modifications to it. You just probably don't know about it. That is traditionally the case in this community. That or it's a lack of updates with new mice hardware. I'd almost bet they left it as a sloppy balance things to simulate spread on table top.

And aslo the tanking is not longer doable because of the agility changes from decoupling. You need certain stats in torso speed and other things to do it. I've been testing it. It's been nerfed as far as I can tell. Did full agility tree also and couldn't get close. You can only do that stupid side jerk crap. So, I guess a bunch of half educated players have ruined another aspect of the game they never learned about and the game has been dumbed down to others standards...

BTW, if those things had remained it probably would be a good counter to new tech(or new tech would have been a good counter to it.). Say, high damage per shot weapons like long toms or the area hit cannons. With increasing damage it would have been good to be in game and people probably would have learned to do it by now with the increased difficulty with new weapons layouts. So, sadly, the game won't get to be played out correctly because of the change. And less reason will exist to bring in more of the missing game items. That defense tactic was an intended part of the geometry originally. It maximizes both arm twisting and CT twisting. The arm twisting became dominant because IS is more inclined in that direction and the nub tanking glitch/cheat like thing that got shown in youtube videos and the other side never got exposed as much(pun intended.).

I still think it would be interesting if they put back coupled engines and either turned off the skill tree and either, reduced maximum points and shut off the agility and appropriate trees/nodes, or reduced the value of the points to allow more minor adjustments to possible increased mech speeds. Assuming there are any overall. If not the readding of the old per weapon upgrades could be cool. They could redo the game to add more customability while leaving room to still cap the mechs layouts. They could also add new stuff like component upgrades for RT or CT or LT etc and diversify the game more. Having the old weapons combos could be interesting in the mix. And the more they add the more they should technically be able to balance mechs to cap abilities also. They could simply make things not fit under the guise that so and so upgrade was not made to fit in thismech and it's fitting's won't hold it or some other compatibility things like in the real world.

Actually, I'm kind of getting the tanking back down. But you have to turn torso and legs to begin to do it a little. So, I can't be anywhere near as aggressive with pushes. and I have full agility tree upgraded to do just that much.

Edited by Arugela, 03 May 2020 - 07:28 AM.


#20 Horseman

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Posted 03 May 2020 - 07:02 AM

What is your mouse sensitivity set to in the game? Set it no higher than 0.3 (and probably as close to 0.2 as is comfortable)





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