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Combined Queues - Final Discoveries


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#301 Valdorel

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:38 AM

I'd say go for it and reset the tiers. But I'd like to echo other people's suggestion here that part of the method for zero-sum'ing should still include the ability to move up if you did really well on a loss, but also the ability to go DOWN if you won the match, but did really poorly.

Otherwise PSR becomes barely more than a W/L ratio, which is not as great an idea.

Definitely not interested in anything that would cause 50 minute waits for anyone like Paul had warned about though, so lets avoid that.

Edited by Valdorel, 26 May 2020 - 08:39 AM.


#302 Mechdocdie

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:38 AM

View PostEbelon, on 26 May 2020 - 06:57 AM, said:

With all respect, Gentleman, they are not!

Especially the "git gud" crowd is not right.
Since all they prove is they mastered to gain the max of the actual PSR calculation, which means:

- do as much damage as possible, leading to shoot torsos, instead the already yellow / red CT
- stay behind, use meat shields with your heavy and or assault mechs to be able to do as much damage as possible
- steal kills wherever possible

Getting to tier 1 very fast requires not being a good team player, but to misuse the PSR calculation which leads to playing selfishly

Others, who try to be a bonus to the team do not get the rewards, they earn because they usually die earlier (Assault, pulling the fire on a rush and so on).

Everybody, who feels "top tier" by getting there in no time since his skill is so good, is not a worthy lancemate.

Like I said before:
- Remove tier indicator in the client, so players do not know in which tier they are in
- change tier calculation to reward team players more than selfish players who just abuse the system (of course thats the tricky part, to determine, who has contributed to the team and who has not)


Firstly, I am also for the reset and a recalculation of how players are graded for matchmaking. I am an ordinary player, long of tooth and short of eyesight, and while I enjoy the challenges of playing Tier 1 I would welcome anything which reduces the stomps (although my own observation is they are less common than they were a few months back, as are the nascars - YAY!). So my vote also is....DO IT!

But I agree with Ebelon. If the PSR / Tier is mostly meant as a matchmaking tool then get rid of that big yellow measuring line screaming at you between games. It does play with your psyche... or at least it plays with mine, and I'm sure I'm not alone. If that is the case, and if people know what influences how big their bar is (double entendre intended) it will affect how people play, and possibly not for the better.

The PSR has to give some weighting to how the team does overall. Not so much it overrides individual performance, but not so little that the team's result doesn't matter. And it shouldn't discourage people playing their unskilled mechs, or mechs that aren't meta. Don't quite know how these metrics can be added, but they should be. However it is measured I think it would be best if we don't know. You can't play to the PSR if you don't know the rools.

So please:
  • Reset the tiers and remove the inevitable upward slope of progress - zero sum it!
  • Remove the tier ranking and progress bar from the UI
  • Keep the formula for Tier/PSR a secret so people are not tempted to play to it.


#303 OmgKllL

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:41 AM

Hi everyone,
I've been playing this game for just over a year and I've reached T1 without much effort:
  • stay with the team
  • do what Baradul or TTB would do
  • adapted to the movements of the enemy
  • don't use lrms Posted Image
Often there are matches which goes purely to luck, or bad luck, it's a game and it's normal the way it is.

However, a reasoning should be made about the weapons because a team too unbalanced on the long range will never win against a balanced team.

Since I rarely get very low scores, I really enjoyed the fastest matchmaking these weeks though.

I would also appreciate something new that goes beyond matchmaking settings, which I approve its total reset.

So thank you PGI and good luck for the further developing of this immortal videogame.

o7

Edited by OmgKllL, 26 May 2020 - 08:46 AM.


#304 Brigadier Bert

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:49 AM

YES! Thank you very much for wanting to keep it like this. I don't care one bit about the tier reset, this number is useless anyway, too easy to farm/exploit. AGAIN THX VERY MUTS, THIS IS GONNA IMPROVE THE GAME SO MUCH!!!! W0000000000T!!!!!!!!

#305 Mistviech

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:54 AM

Reset PSR!

#306 Kat Baran

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:55 AM

For all the people that are crying about loosing T1

make a badge:

"I played enough games to reach T1 before the reset"

Posted Image

#307 C337Skymaster

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:56 AM

View PostSneekiBreeki, on 25 May 2020 - 06:02 PM, said:

Can we also get back most of the mobility on the mechs that got completely screwed over by engine desync? You know, like the Timby and more?

Posted Image


I second this!! And my Alt-Account thirds it! And I'll create as many more accounts as I need to get the votes up! :)

For that matter, can we just completely undo engine desync? If you're worried about the Kodiak, just get rid of the inflated ballistic hardpoints. Problem solved. (Not like we aren't fighting that exact same build on other chassis, anyway, with even more mobility than the Kodiak ever had).

#308 Firefox54

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 08:58 AM

I'm fine with a reset and zero-sum ... as long as the new systems allows for a move up if you do well in a loss, and down if you do poorly in a win.

I saw a comment on getting rid of the win-loss impact, but at the same time I suspect the better players know how to work as a team so there should be some weighting given to win-loss. I certainly don't know the best weight ... but if you can get the first part of this message into the system ... that's a good step.

Also, if we go to this new system, wouldn't people slowly start to find their correct tiers? If so, why not start from where we're at rather than start over OR as a few people have suggested, use the existing data from some set of last matches to identify the initial Tiers. I think that would be better than just resetting to baseline (although I'm not going to rage if that happens ... I definitely don't belong in T2 the way I've been playing since coming back).

#309 The Ghost Walker

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:00 AM

Please don’t NOT reset the tiers.
I busted my *** to get to full bar Tier 1 status.

#310 letir

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:09 AM

View PostEbelon, on 26 May 2020 - 06:57 AM, said:

With all respect, Gentleman, they are not!

Especially the "git gud" crowd is not right.
Since all they prove is they mastered to gain the max of the actual PSR calculation, which means:

- do as much damage as possible, leading to shoot torsos, instead the already yellow / red CT
- stay behind, use meat shields with your heavy and or assault mechs to be able to do as much damage as possible
- steal kills wherever possible

Getting to tier 1 very fast requires not being a good team player, but to misuse the PSR calculation which leads to playing selfishly

So, in your opinion:
1) Softening up oppositon at every opportunity.
2) Securing kills at every opportunity.
3) Trying to stay alive on the frontline by rotating armor with heavies/assaults.

Is bad and selfish behaviour?

#311 Katastrophy Kid

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:12 AM

I'm fine with it.

#312 Captainpeeweed

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:14 AM

Hi there, as a relatively new player in the game (more or less a year), just my 2 cents on the topic.

Completely forwarding the Tier reset, it felt pretty much that it was only about grinding games anyway, not really reflecting any real skills difference.
However, there s been a few times since the queue merge that the match maker has created games with a really big tonnage gap, like having a full assault lance in a team and no assaults in the other team. Never had that happened before in the year I've been playing. So please if you're able to keep monitoring the situation.

#313 Calon Farstar

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:20 AM

Reset it. Tiers only represent how you are sorted in ques. Everyone that was T1 will be again. Having fast ques and great game play is WAY more important than a T1 status symbol.

#314 Ult9876

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:22 AM

View PostPaul Inouye, on 25 May 2020 - 03:41 PM, said:

On another note, when we just combined the queues, stomp rates went up by 5%. With the current settings in the match maker, that went back down to 1%.

I have tracked 250 matches played by me which took place between May 14th and May 22nd.

These were matches as an average Tier 2 player playing both grouped (24% of matches) and solo, with a near-equal kill-death- and win-lose-ratio during these matches.

The disparity between winning and losing side was:

12:00 - 2.4%
12:01 - 5.2%
12:02 - 12.0%
12:03 - 13.2%
12:04 - 8.4%
12:05 - 12.4%
12:06 - 12.4%
12:07 - 12.8%
12:08 - 8.0%
12:09 - 6.8%
12:10 - 2.4%
12:11 - 2.8%
12:12 - 1.2%

Take it as player experience i guess. The stomp rate as experienced is not 1%, 3% or 5%.

I do not agree with the opinion that a lot of others hold that high-level groups are "mismatched" into games and thus lead to stomps. While in matches where a group of recognizable high-level players (*) was present the chance of the side they were placed on winning the match rose significantly (to about 2:1), the rate of stomps among these wins was actually below the above experience.

(*) by either name individually, or by unit tag of a comp player group, not counting matches where these weren't stuck together in Alpha lance as a group or similar.

View PostPaul Inouye, on 25 May 2020 - 03:41 PM, said:

There is a multiplier for the first 20 games all players play that push your PSR changes higher or lower to speed the seeding process of the PSR player distribution. After those 20 matches, regular PSR zero sum values will be used.

I would question whether this leads to an equal distribution of population in the short- to mid-term in particular in higher tiers, which would be a concern. We already have a similarly low population in the faction play queue, leading to effectively the same 60-80 players mostly playing against each other.

View PostD U N E, on 25 May 2020 - 04:49 PM, said:

To anyone not wanting this - Not being Tier 1 isn't a bad thing. It's a system to ensure you are on the right side of the field. It shouldn't be a bar to grind. It should be a system to ensure fair balance in games to avoid stomps and make closer matches.

In which case one may as well hide the Tier, or at least the progress bar from players. It's a bar to grind because there is a bar.

#315 C337Skymaster

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:23 AM

View PostNumberFive, on 25 May 2020 - 07:42 PM, said:

There are several issues which need to be addressed.
1. Declining community
2. Skill balancing
3. Mech balancing
4. Queue times
5. Game quality

While several of these are in conflict, the last point, game quality, is arguably most important.

So let's break this down. Game quality is a factor of fun and satisfaction. Sometimes you want to compete and win and sometimes you just want to stomp noisy robots. Everyone has played troll builds, test builds and/or run around like a lunatic for poops and giggles and it upsets the game quality for people who are playing seriously.

That indicates the need for two separate Quick Play streams - Casual and Competitive - with the key difference that Competitive affects your Tier rating.

That addresses game quality, but it conflicts with Queue Times and the Declining Community.

No problem. Competitive queue doesn't need to be strictly tier based, it just needs to be balanced.
So give me a team of players with a mix of tiers 1 to 5, as long as both teams have a similar spread of tiered players over a similar mech weight range.
Then - and critically - the highest tier players on a team should be flagged in team chat. This means newer players know who to follow, who to listen to. It makes for a more cohesive team and encourages improvement.

Finally, there needs to be a way to quickly switch mechs based on the map. Let me choose a mech to take in game and one secondary mech I can switch to. A lot of game quality issues arise from mech-map mismatch, and that's not something you can fix server-side, that needs to be a player decision.


Two points to this one: firstly, if I had ever had the option, I would personally have dropped solo in group queue, because I've seen first-hand the dramatic increase in team performance when there is communication and cooperation, and getting placed with an existing group as an individual, and INDICATING that I'm open and receptive to commands and coordination, has improved my MWO experience, and is what made what little FW I've played enjoyable.

Secondly, I've been starting to advocate for a last-minute loadout changing feature: 10 seconds AFTER the map/mode are selected, before the match loads. HOWEVER, I've been advocating that it be an Omnimech Only feature for two reasons: Omnimechs are specifically known for that exact flexibility, but have been relegated to 2nd line in MWO behind standard battlemechs (completely opposite of how it should be). Once that flexibility is available and allowed only to Omnis, it gives a purpose to IS omnis that would provide them a role in this game besides simple nostalgia, and we can start seeing them added as new 'mech packs. In my version, only the loadout would change, but not the chassis. I would prefer PGI load all of the stock configurations of each omnimech by default, but allow each "saved" loadout to also show up in the list. That way, new players who just bought the 'mech can enjoy its flexibility with the different stock loadouts, and as they customize the 'mech, they can add to their personal list of options.

#316 JoeCold

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:28 AM

View PostBlazerX64 IIC, on 25 May 2020 - 06:27 PM, said:

I'm up for the tier reset if it means making MWO more fun in the long run to bring back some players. However, I think we will need to fix the issue with spawns if we wanna make fair assessments of the players in their climb back to their current tiers from Tier 4.

The current spawn points of the Lances were made to cater to Lights, Mediums/Heavies, and Assaults/Heavies based on a generalized speed bracket and maneuverability to get to a rendezvous point (typically the center of the map). As many others have said before, this simply does not work anymore with the Group Queue Merge which causes Assaults or Heavies to spawn in areas favorable only to Lights or Mediums.


I have to disagree here, largely because if the part I bolded in your statement was the intent, it wasn't achieved . . . at all. Charlie lances are frequently dropped in the most disadvantages position for common rendezvous points.

Further, for the most part I've found the new mixed weight lances to create real need for strategy changes in years. The only problem I've perceived is when one Assault gets paired with 3 Lights in a bad drop location. The Lights run off and before the abandoned Assault can even get close to the rest of the company, an enemy wolf pack finds and quickly dispatches it.

So, some lance weight re-balancing is probably needed, but not the old, straight-forward Light to Assault system.


View PostClay Endfield, on 25 May 2020 - 07:40 PM, said:

Honestly, I'm in R2, and I feel like I have no right to be there. I'm not worried about a rank down; more concerned with winding up in a scrub Tier where LRMs are all the rage and Polar Highlands is ALWAYS picked whenever it shows up in the que. Could you guys maybe tweak the map bias in the lower ranks away from Alpine Peaks, Polar Highlands, and the other LRM heavy maps? My favorite thing about R2 is that LRM boats typically only show up whenever there's an event going on; having to play nothing but Umbrellas to get anywhere in the scrub Tiers is kinda off putting.


Better yet, can that awful Highlands map just get dropped altogether? Blech!

View PostConstalation, on 25 May 2020 - 07:47 PM, said:

Well, now that it is permanent... Lets hope it works out for the game. I'm enjoying it, but it seems a good half of the people who are active on the forums are against it.


Of course, that means half like it. There is no solution to please all. Which is a problem in itself due to the age and corresponding declining player base. Probably due for MWO 2, lol.

View PostAsskick McStompnuts, on 25 May 2020 - 08:30 PM, said:

Please reset the PSR and ensure the community is given notice of when this will happen. I don't want to ticking through my first 20 games on a drunken Friday night.


100% agree with the notice part. Please make sure we know when we are playing those 20 games!

View PostPaladin357, on 25 May 2020 - 10:03 PM, said:


I disagree. It's clear that the bias mainly comes from the formula saying that if your team WINS you move up, even if you personally do poorly. For example, if I do 200 dmg and get 0 kills, 0 kmdds, and 0 components destroyed but the team wins, I move up. Same performance and my team loses, I go down. To maintain your current rating on a loss takes around 500 damage, while on a win it only requires about 50-100. This is easily observed while playing.

My vote is to reset the PSR, and when you say "zero sum" you truly mean that win/loss has no effect on it. It should be based purely on individual performance.


I agree that the current way team result is included in PSR is not handled well. But the problem with not accounting for team result at all is that, at least in stomps, your team's performance has direct relevance to your own. You may start well, but 3 minutes in are outnumbered 5 to 1 and get overwhelmed.Maybe in your 3 minutes you already racked up 500 damage and a couple kills. How much more would you have done in a competitive game that lasted 6 more minutes, even if your team still ultimately lost. To a lesser extent, the same is true in reverse.

#317 Centurio GER

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:31 AM

It will be a pain in the back for those who are tier 1 to reach their old tier. To give you an estimate: with my alternate account I needed 130 or so matches to go from tier 5 to 3, another 900 matches to go from tier 3 to 2, further 2000 matches to reach tier 1 and finally 1000 matches to fill the tier 1 bar. With such a grind in front of us I can not see how anyone can be enthusiastic about that.

#318 JoeCold

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:37 AM

Is the current method of calculating PSR and Match Score published somewhere? It would be helpful to know for this conversation. I assume Match Score is part of current PSR calculations or they share some elements? If so, there are other problems with PSR that won't be fixed by a reset, with or without zero sum. Match Score is seriously flawed. No apparent accounting for role or game mode.

Point is, I'm all for fixing it. But if you only tweak one part and don't fix it, you haven't fixed it at all.

#319 Kat Baran

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:43 AM

View PostCenturio GER, on 26 May 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

It will be a pain in the back for those who are tier 1 to reach their old tier.


You got something wrong - it´s a system that average players will never reach T1 again.
New way of thinking Posted Image

#320 Rendiir

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 09:48 AM

Reset PSR
PSR should not be affected by win or loss. If you lose but got top 3 score on your team you should go up. If you win but did bottom 3 score on your team, you should go down.

PSR is a matchmaking tool not a badge. Remove the progress bar, the bar is not the goal of the game but it being exposed make it that way for some people.





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