83 replies to this topic

[Teknomancer]

Captain Caveman DE, on 08 June 2020 - 12:49 PM, said:

reality is: there's a lot more people who 'don't contribute' when I look over recent match-screenshots in this forum - but you can't punish everybody
joking aside: matchscore sorts things fine (enough), and if you have the 10th worst matchscore on your team, chances are very high *cough* that there's 9 people performing better than you on your team;
"real" performance aside, if you drop with 11 "gods amongst men" who do a 12:0 in under 2 minutes, and you didn't get a chance to contribute, you'll go down only a little. and only for that specific match. it's not the end of the world.



oh, and the 3 best on the losing side are (nearly, and the chances are so slim I have to type it tiny as this) ALWAYS gonna carry more than the 3 worst performers on the winning side. but test it yourself; screenshot a few or even a lot of matches and post a picture that proves this 'guesstimate' wrong. pls





thx mate; the numbers where just casually spitballing, they surely need adjustment; I was just trying to show what zero-sum looks like and how it can be implemented;
you could for example stretch out the zero-points-zone in both teams, give or take another place that goes up and down, put bigger differences in numbers in there - just anything, really.
*was just really trying to show how easily you can replace the current system with a totally different one, that probably works better - and is adjustable by itself in many ways*



Cheers mate.
-you're right in that the win-bonus has to go @MS

-you're wrong on the "look at 24, not at 2x12" thing, imo. let me explain by example;
you got a 12:3 stomp. they happen a lot.
now, players on the winning team have, after taking the kill-lead, a relatively easy time on the battlefield; they will roll out more damage, have more bodies to rely on, to distribute the other teams damage on etc, etc.
so it's an environment where you can get a good MS easy.

the losing side has it harder to get meaningful MS, since they have all the above things going AGAINST them.

you gotta look at 2 sets of 12, to keep things fair; if you don't, you always drag a lot of people upwards, just because they live in an environment that gives them more MS (and more points if you do it your way).

hope it does make sense

It does make sense, and I can absolutely see the problem of stomps. Any effective rating has to handle stomps, and stomps will be a point of debate through all this, heh. Your scoring definitely prevents a stomp from unfairly moving a PSR score because of a tough break. There is much to like with your numbers.

However, I do believe you need to compare all 24 players, because the more narrow the comparison, the less it helps balance over time. The more matches it will take to find your appropriate Tier, which doesn't help more casual players. Those 24 players could be allies or enemies on any given drop, or mixed up. Over multiple games, the matchmaker needs to account for your performance compared to as many players as possible. You're not ranking against your teammates, you're ranking against the whole player pool to find where you best fit. Adjusting PSR solely within your team's performance doesn't account for how well or poorly you did relative to the opposition.

Now yes, a stomp throws any scoring out of whack a bit. But there can be reasons for that stomp. If you all sat around and did nothing, or squabbled with no coordination, a stomp may be justified. Should your best players be guaranteed to rise if they still were awful compared to the opposition? Then your PSR is artificially inflated. You could have decent players on the winning team forced to lose PSR needlessly. You need to compare all 24 to avoid this.

Edited by Teknomancer, 08 June 2020 - 01:43 PM.

[tmw2442]

Just a thought...but instead of all this calculus to decide going up and down a tier system vs win points or lose points. We use average match score

Edited by tmw2442, 08 June 2020 - 01:49 PM.

[Nitrospirae]

tmw2442, on 08 June 2020 - 01:48 PM, said:

Just a thought...but instead of all this calculus to decide going up and down a tier system vs win points or lose points. We use average match score

That's actually a pretty good idea, even with all the calculus. The issue right now is not that the change in PSR (gradient) of all of the players in a game does not sum up to zero. By itself, that would be fine, and if you look at this like an optimization problem where the PSR system attempts to find the "true" rating of a player, it is even expected, as the starting point and the optimized value will almost always be different. However, as the player plays more games and the system is able to make a better guess, these gradients should tend toward zero for that specific player, as they have reached a point where their PSR represents their skill level and thus should not change unless the player improves.

If we ignore the issue that match score, in it's current state, might not be perfectly representative of the player's contribution to the team, average match score does fix the issue of the "xp bar" by always stabilizing at a certain point, ensuring that bad players with lots of games don't end up at the top. If you want to keep tiers you can even normalize it, like grading on a curve in college, where players within +/- 0.5 standard deviations are tier 3, those between +0.5 and +1 standard deviations are tier 2, etc.

Edited by Nitrospirae, 08 June 2020 - 02:50 PM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

RRAMIREZ, on 08 June 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

no.. 2 "gods amongst men" will also go down.
Not sure that they will appreciate and not complain here ^^ (more than I do)

this may sound weird, but: I'm confident they wouldn't mind; you see, the toughest matches, matchscore-wise, are when you drop with a good group;
when FW was still alive and full of groups, I had lots of matches where I'd struggle to break 1k damage, which is quite easy to do normally there (I'd say double that should be the norm). then again: the rest did also struggle;
in some of those matches you compete against YOUR team more than against the reds, and everybody's matchscore "suffers" from it.
but guess what: it's a drop that generally everybody enjoys, because people know what they're doing, listen to calls and/or make them; you can pull off so many stuff that's unthinkable in RotatoeQ and like I said: people are having fun when things 'just work'.
believe it or not, but a lot (can't speak for them all ofc) of the better & team-oriented players actually do NOT care about their matchscore, about going up and down or whatever - they wanna have fun, as much as everybody else;
besides: over time, performing people will rise to the top anyway, so why bother with a single nudge against all odds here and there? people are confident in what they're doing and a single negative number does mean sh*t in the long run.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 09 June 2020 - 03:23 AM.