144 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Cluster Fox, on 08 August 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:

It's well known that Damage is too high a factor in the Matchscore. MS isn't skill. It is much easier to alter your builds and behaviour to change MS than to alter your behaviour to win.

I just finished simulating a bunch of scenarios for PSR systems. Including the one we have. The two biggest problems already raised by both Nightbird and I are : The PSR is unstable and will push players to T1 or T5 regardless, Matchscore alone is not a good indication of skill so the PSR needs to weight W-L heavily to get more balanced matches. The Win chance of a team is directly related to the WLR of the players in that team.

https://mwomercs.com...psr-comparison/

Could the current PSR values be more influenced by W/L than it is now? /shrugs If it was then the person you had quoted would be flaming even faster down what he PERCEIVES as the rabbit hole, based on both July's, and even more so on August's stats, because he had a W/L ratio of 0.94 (151W/160L) July and August's is running at 0.62 W/L ratio of 17 wins/27 losses.

Stil, the negative perception being perceived of the current PSR setup, regardless of what form it would have taken, is due to PGI lack of thought and action by not performing a reseeding of the player base from Tier 2 to Tier 4, and ignore/place Tier 5/Cadets into Tier 4 That graph Paul posted with that huge Tier 5 column of players? New accounts which at least 1 game was played then quit, and not enough games (10 min) to show up on Leadership Boards to even be counted, thus not reflected on Jarl's list the next month.

The average player had gotten too accustom to the participation award the original PSR setup provided, with only downward movement occurring on a lost but NEVER on a win.. maybe equal/no movement but never a downward arrow.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 August 2020 - 04:11 PM.

[Cluster Fox]

With the current PSR system, we can't fix it. Whatever is happening will keep happening. Play more games to enhance the effect. More W-L will make the shift quicker for some, slower for others.

The player has an overall WLR of 0.95 and AvgMS of 207. He'd fall mid-low T3 in both suggestions for a PSR system that work. In Nightbird's system 0.95 WLR isn't bad. With my fixes his PSR would be around 2200+/-100 on a scale of 0 to 5000.
Maybe 2100 after his bad luck streak - still T3.

You can't simply change X,Y,C on the current system. It MUST be stabilized first.

Edited by Cluster Fox, 08 August 2020 - 05:55 PM.

[Alreech]

PCHunter, on 08 August 2020 - 01:29 PM, said:

With the new Event going on, it has become painfully clear that the PSR does not take into account other positive strategic contributions made by a player. Caps mean nothing. NARCs mean nothing. UAVs mean nothing. EMS coverage counts for nothing. AMS intercepts count very little. Damage is reviewed as a constant but not on a curve based on the mech fielded.

So what?
Quickplay is all about damage and kills, and most MWO players like it that way.
PGI should remove Assault, Conquest and Domination from Quickplay like they did it with Escort, so what light Mechs don't waste their time with capping.
Capping - especially in conquest - splits of the team and increases the risk of a stomp.

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This places lights and mediums at a substantial disadvantage. It takes a lot of skill to amass over 300 damage points with a 30-ton mech - this is 10x your mech weight.

Simple solutions: don't play lights.
Play a fast medium or heavy SRM Bomber.
Don't waste tonnage on stuff like AMS.
Don't waste c-bills on UAV that makes it easier for your team mates to steal your kills.

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I generally average 200 or so with my lights, but my focus is on other strategies than getting damage or kills.

You are playing MWO wrong.

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There is no way to evaluate the impact a light mech has on the overall match. I have consistently been on winning teams, sometimes with a kill or 2, capped and done all sorts of positive things, but have recorded a loss of PSR. That is plain BS. Who the heck will play lights with such a stacked rating system? Right now, I play other mechs until my PSR is high enough where I can suffer the hits. If you play only lights and mediums, chances are that no matter how good you are, you will end up in Tier 4 or 5.

Most of MWOs Mechs are bad for the Quickplay meta.
Just don't play those Mechs, and focus on kills and damage.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Alreech, on 09 August 2020 - 02:05 AM, said:

So what?
Quickplay is all about damage and kills, and most MWO players like it that way.

Most MWO players have left, so no, most mwo players don't like it that way.

Unless you're using a tautology in saying that everyone who still plays mwo still plays mwo.

Otherwise there are multiple times the current population number who expressly left because the "thinking" went to "walk forward (and to the left) shooting" in the most populated mode in the game.

If the system of slowly removing all nuance from the game in favor of high alphas and circlewalking really were the preference of all players the game wouldn't be competing with games like the original Left4Dead or Spore and losing in terms of playercount.

[Vercors]

Hello !
The shearch engine should be dynamic, when there is no enough players the wait time is too long. An application could mesure how many players click "ready" for a match on each tier (every X minutes) and decide of the wait time for this periode. No need to wait when there is no enough players in a tier.
Thanks.

Edited by Vercors, 10 August 2020 - 05:56 AM.

[morosis]

just throwing this out there:

Is there a way to scale the matchscore by PSR differences in those players who are selected for a game?

i.e. if we are having trouble making sure teams and player sets are effectively balanced due to low populations, difficulty of balancing groups, etc, maybe there's a solution in compensating lower PSR pilots extra if they damage/assist/kill a higher PSR pilot? and reversing the bonus for the higher PSR guys?

in my mind, i think this will compensate higher PSR guys less if they were selected for a game that was too easy for them, and it will compensate lower PSR guys more if they were selected for a game that was too hard for them.

i dont think it would be as simple as gain/loss per game event triggered * (PSR high player/PSR low player) for the low guys and the inverse for the high guys, but something along those lines. perhaps team averages? idk, just wanted to seed an idea really.

it would be more or less invisible to those in game unless peoples' reputations precede them, and could help solve the problem of all players being treated as equal once the match starts, even if some are on the low end of the PSR/skill/experience scale and others are elite.

Edited by morosis, 14 August 2020 - 11:21 AM.

[Janet Yellen]

Trifakt, on 05 August 2020 - 12:44 PM, said:

team damage/kills aren't a big problem in MWO imho

Your opinion is bad. With how psr works now when you shoot a teammate in the back and destroy their weapons and or leg, you are almost guaranteeing a bad outcome for them while, you will still be able to make up for your quite possibly intentional bad play. This should be heavily penalized.

Edited by Janet Yellen, 15 August 2020 - 07:30 PM.

[Nesutizale]

Vercors, on 10 August 2020 - 03:58 AM, said:

Hello !
The shearch engine should be dynamic, when there is no enough players the wait time is too long. An application could mesure how many players click "ready" for a match on each tier (every X minutes) and decide of the wait time for this periode. No need to wait when there is no enough players in a tier.
Thanks.

The MM opens up the valves if there aren't enough players in a specific tier to fill up the open spaces.
What I would like to test is dynamic team sizes. Working similar to the current system as it waits that 24 people are found in a given Tier. If thats not possible instead of adding people from other tiers the teams get sized down to 8v8, then 4v4 while maintaining the tier.

Since the teams are smaller, matches should be faster, also maybe less balanced but getting into a smaller, faster game with similar skilled pilots might be more interesting then getting a match with people that are either much better then you or worse.
Also since they are faster you can then just Q up for the next match that hopefully gets the full 12 people per side.

[Bistrorider]

PCHunter, on 08 August 2020 - 01:29 PM, said:

With the new Event going on, it has become painfully clear that the PSR does not take into account other positive strategic contributions made by a player. Caps mean nothing. NARCs mean nothing. UAVs mean nothing. EMS coverage counts for nothing. AMS intercepts count very little. Damage is reviewed as a constant but not on a curve based on the mech fielded. This places lights and mediums at a substantial disadvantage. It takes a lot of skill to amass over 300 damage points with a 30-ton mech - this is 10x your mech weight. I generally average 200 or so with my lights, but my focus is on other strategies than getting damage or kills. There is no way to evaluate the impact a light mech has on the overall match. I have consistently been on winning teams, sometimes with a kill or 2, capped and done all sorts of positive things, but have recorded a loss of PSR. That is plain BS. Who the heck will play lights with such a stacked rating system? Right now, I play other mechs until my PSR is high enough where I can suffer the hits. If you play only lights and mediums, chances are that no matter how good you are, you will end up in Tier 4 or 5.

I agree. Lights are very hurt right now. Had the same situation as you. Played as light few times. Did some positive harass-flanking. My team basically won that particular match thanks to some lights who were on enemy assaults tail all the game and then we ended with PSR drop. It should be changed. Problem is not only lights can go by the objectives. If some assault, or fast heavy, medium gonna do some objective and decent damage, his score may be too big. Solution might be to give lights some MS bonus for going by the objectives but I dunno if it can be implemented. On the other hand it's still possible to do some decent dmg with light mech, but it's always the hardest thing to do. If you wanna go light, try to pump up your dmg by using strikes. My record is 787 dmg with Flea, like 150 dmg of it done from strikes, so it was worth it.

[Nesutizale]

While I haven't played lights yet I noticed that while I get consistent numbers in assaults and heavies, mediums I allready have more problems with but that can also be because I am very used to have armor and go in instead of avoiding fire

So in that regard I can understand why it might be frustrating for lights or even mediums to be played. On the other hand there is skill that has to be taken into calculation. From what I have seen some light players of the higher tiers seam to have no problem dishing out damages that assaults do. So I guess they should have less of a problem with getting a positiv PSR change.

Its hard to say without haveing the data to back it up so I guess a bit here.
Most likely a solution could be that you have a forumula that calculates a bonus depending on your Tier and mechweight.
For example a light mech gets a higher multiplicator on its matchscore for damage done then a medium who gets a higher multiplicator then a heavy etc.
Then you look at the tier, where the lower the tier the higher the multiplikator gets.

Problem is to find the sweat spot that you just bring up lights and medium to heavy and assaults but don't overdo it.

[crazytimes]

Well... seems like I eventually ended up 1 again. I staved it off for a while by buying some new mechs and ground them out at 0 skill points, but here we are. Tried very hard to avoid AMS/LRM/ATM boats. Mostly MPL lights/mediums and MRM heavies, alternating whatever heavies I'm grinding.

Things I learnt- some of the really good players are genuinely helpful. Some of the really poor players are genuinely salty. I should buy more Night Gyrs.

[Dump Truck Driver]

Alreech, on 09 August 2020 - 02:05 AM, said:

Simple solutions: don't play lights.
Play a fast medium or heavy SRM Bomber.
Don't waste tonnage on stuff like AMS.
Don't waste c-bills on UAV that makes it easier for your team mates to steal your kills.


You are playing MWO wrong.

As per usual this game brings out the best in hypocrisy. The guy who with at least 32 "seasons" of MWO disagrees with the other guys complaint about how the game should be scored and multi dimensional with the advice of the century.

"play boring bomber builds"
"don't cap you'se doing it wrongs boyo"

Yet in those 32 months only has a positive win loss record in 3 of those months. 3 months positive win loss in 32 and "He's doing it wrong"

Yep, pretty good advice there, i'll be sure to take that advice and chuck it right out the damn window.

You get incursion, go trash the base, if they don't defend it THEY aren't playing the mode, not me or you. And heres the kicker. If everyone plays the mode your PSR wont be dramatically affected because damage will be low across the board, but ultimately i'm willing to take a psr or match score hit if it wins the game. The advice giver there isn't willing to sacrifice match score for wins and it shows because he doesn't win. (and his match scores aren't great either)

Edited by Dump Truck Driver, 18 August 2020 - 12:15 PM.

[Laser Kiwi]

Yours isn't the best either, neither is mine, Dumpy my man

[Dump Truck Driver]

Wesleytron, on 18 August 2020 - 12:02 PM, said:

Yours isn't the best either, neither is mine, Dumpy my man

True, but i'm not going to go on here as a craptastic player and tell another craptastic player he should play just like me "cause i'm a less worse loser than you" what a lot of crapola.

Also a lot of people now opting out of showing their tier on here, what are they afraid of, that we won't value their opinion? Great news, it doesn't matter, you started recently at tier 3 and the stats are out there for anyone to see. People should be mindful and respectful of their relative skill levels before getting into other players too hard. This, you doing it wrong, ******** just doesn't fly in my world. PC Hunter wants to play a game a certain way, a way the game allows, yet he isn't rewarded for his perceived efforts. Regardless of whether he does as much as he thinks, he should be given an opportunity to hold locks for losers with lurm boats and other useful stuff and be rewarded FULLY for those efforts. Too many lurm guys out there making high match scores and thinking they are the **** when its really a front line guy who knows how to press R or a brave light pilot that gave them that opportunity. NOT TALKING TO FRONT LINE LURMERS, JUST THE HEADS DOWN GUYS. Now despite the fact i dislike the play style, the head down lurmer IS STILL REWARDED FOR HIS PLAYSTYLE, so if he is and people aren't keen then surely the brave intrepid scout capping on open maps like grim and polar should be rewarded for those efforts, the guy who sticks his nose out to get locks, should be rewarded for those efforts, yet lurmers are rewarded for playing a cowardly inaccurate play style, and he's doing it wrong, GTFO

[Alreech]

Dump Truck Driver, on 18 August 2020 - 11:58 AM, said:

As per usual this game brings out the best in hypocrisy. The guy who with at least 32 "seasons" of MWO disagrees with the other guys complaint about how the game should be scored and multi dimensional with the advice of the century.

"play boring bomber builds"
"don't cap you'se doing it wrongs boyo"

Yet in those 32 months only has a positive win loss record in 3 of those months. 3 months positive win loss in 32 and "He's doing it wrong"

Yes, my main account has bad stats because i did a lot of mistakes:
Like trying to cap, trying to help the team, playing teamwork centerd mechs...

My other account with the boring bomber builds has better stats.

So i agree with you: bad stats = bad player.
Play boring bomber builds and go for kills & damage and give a dam about your teammates = good stats, good player.

[crazytimes]

Dump Truck Driver, on 18 August 2020 - 12:13 PM, said:

Also a lot of people now opting out of showing their tier on here, what are they afraid of, that we won't value their opinion? Great news, it doesn't matter, you started recently at tier 3 and the stats are out there for anyone to see.

A lot of people don't even know the leaderboard exist, and have no idea what jarlslist is. Then when called out, they will always say "how can I trust a website?" or "this isn't my main account".

Quote

rewarded for playing a cowardly inaccurate play style, and he's doing it wrong, GTFO

It's... an internet game. No one is 'cowardly' or 'brave'. People just like to play differently. I don't particularly enjoy team mates rushing off to die to fulfill some sense of 'bravery' or 'honour'.

[Cluster Fox]

crazytimes, on 18 August 2020 - 02:28 PM, said:

It's... an internet game. No one is 'cowardly' or 'brave'. People just like to play differently. I don't particularly enjoy team mates rushing off to die to fulfill some sense of 'bravery' or 'honour'.

Well, there's a difference between rewarding teamplay behavior and this.
A Leroy Jenkerensky is bad teamplay since it'll give a numerical advantage to the other team, but using teammates as a meatshield while you stay back, don't try to help them and die 5 minutes after everyone on skirmish is no better.

In the meantime, cadets can't start at 2500PSR, this is ludicrous.

[PCHunter]

Here we are in November after several months and let me report that virtually nothing has changed in my experience. However, I now play heavier mechs with burst damage builds to pump up my match damage and scores and, consequently, my PSR. Then I revert to my fun mechs, being fast lights and mediums, until my PSR inevitably drops enough that I start the cycle anew. Am I gaming the system? Yeah, but less so than those rats that drop into a match then go AFK to drop their PSRs.

Telling me I am playing MWO wrong because I concentrate more on the match objectives than damage and kills is ridiculous and inconsistent with what the designers intended. It is the developers' PSR system that is wrong, not those players like me. Believe me, when the match type is Skirmish, I go for the damage and kills. However, that is seldom the choice. Mostly I see Domination, Assault and Resource Capture before I will see a Skirmish game, with Domination picked about 1/3rd of the time. Unfortunately, the PSR and Match Score calculations seem inconsistent with the type of matches that players are selecting.

Edited by PCHunter, 09 November 2020 - 07:03 PM.

[crazytimes]

PCHunter, on 09 November 2020 - 07:02 PM, said:

Here we are in November after several months and let me report that virtually nothing has changed in my experience. It is the developers' PSR system that is wrong, not those players like me. Unfortunately, the PSR and Match Score calculations seem inconsistent with the type of matches that players are selecting.

If I understand you correctly- you want your tier to be inflated so that you can play in the same games as people who get kills and do damage, whilst acknowledging that you aren't good at that.

Whilst that is an interesting take on the matter- if you don't care about kills and damage, then why does a number that means nothing outside of match maker mean anything to you?

[Seelenlos]

May I extrapolate that "no new news or Picture" must say the whole thing is crap?