59 replies to this topic

[Tommy Atkins]

Has anyone else noticed that since the change combining Group Queue and Solo Queue into a single Quick Play Queue the weight balance is right out the window?

I keep dropping in games where one side will have two assault mechs and the other will have five or six. I think the most egregious example I've personally seen was one on one side and five on the other. I know Baradul has posted a YouTube video where one side boasted ten assault mechs.

I think combining the two queues hasn't been too bad... but a consistent lack of balance is a serious problem. And before people jump on me with "well, it's not impossible to beat a heavier team" I know that. I also know that one team having more than half-again the weight is a huge uphill obstacle and the average quick play team of randos simply isn't going to be able to overcome it.

It's very little fun going into a match and being stomped flat by sheer weight of metal.

Edited by Tommy Atkins, 04 July 2020 - 12:29 PM.

[MF H3NDO]

Yes, I have also experienced lopsided matches but you have to stay strong!

[YueFei]

Or PGI could finally balance the game and live up to their original premise in which Light mechs are just as valuable as contributors to a team's victory as Assault mechs?

I mean, you don't see NFL teams stack their rosters with nothing except 300+ pound dudes. They don't take to the field on every single down/distance/yardage situation with 11 guys who are all lineman-types. It's not because the league has rules that artificially restrict how much total weight a team can bring onto the field, it's because teams organically use different sizes of athletes at different positions in order to maximize their chances of winning. The field is wide enough and long enough so that faster athletes can shine.

If PGI had lived up to their own premise, there'd be no need for tonnage balancing to begin with.

[letir]

For some reason many assault 'Mechs failing to achieve damage score of my 45t Shadow Cat. So important, much wow.

[Monkey Lover]

I think the team weight system is screwed up. If the match maker puts 2 groups of 2 to fight a group of 4. Its very likly those 2 groups will have alll assaults. When the group of 4 will have 2 at the most, even zero.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 05 July 2020 - 02:34 AM.

[crazytimes]

It doesn't help with potato 4 man groups running 3 fleas and a low end heavy to just hit the minimum weight. I've started recording matches, that went as well as expected. They got real abusive on voice chat too when called out about it.

Edited by crazytimes, 04 July 2020 - 10:30 PM.

[General Solo]

Tommy Atkins, on 04 July 2020 - 12:28 PM, said:

Has anyone else noticed that since the change combining Group Queue and Solo Queue into a single Quick Play Queue the weight balance is right out the window?...
.....
.....
I think combining the two queues hasn't been too bad... but a consistent lack of balance is a serious problem.

So which is it?
No too bad or a serious problem?

Personally I think the merge is soo badd too and a serious problem as well.

[Horseman]

Let me introduce you to an example. The reds had seven assaults, four heavies and one medium. The blues had zero assaults, four heavies, four mediums and four lights.

Guess which side won with only one mech lost?

The blues

[Aidan Crenshaw]

That's an old sreenshot from the old GQ though. And I guess this was a large drop with several LRMers and 3 Narc Ravens. Yep, 12-man drop for sure.
What's this going to tell us? 12-man op under all circumstances?

[OneTeamPlayer]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 08 July 2020 - 03:29 AM, said:

That's an old sreenshot from the old GQ though. And I guess this was a large drop with several LRMers and 3 Narc Ravens. Yep, 12-man drop for sure.
What's this going to tell us? 12-man op under all circumstances?

This is why discussion on this forum is difficult sometime. For almost any topic a player will find a way to post blatant misinformation in an attempt to appeal to whatever outcome they prefer, rather than discussing the state of the game as it stands at that particular moment.

You see this happening on all manner of balance topics and at first i thought it was a bit rare, but am noticing it is a regular occurrence, especially from people who hang around in certain "elite" circles.

If the facts have nothing to do with the case they're presenting they'll just make flat out propaganda. Probably a part of how we have a W/L system that gives far better rewards on loss than the last system.

It's disappointing to watch, honestly.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Horseman usually is not such a guy, so I'd like to read his thoughts why he posted that screenshot in this discussion.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 08 July 2020 - 04:35 AM, said:

Horseman usually is not such a guy, so I'd like to read his thoughts why he posted that screenshot in this discussion.

Well then, benefit of the doubt cause i don't know a lot of people- but i do see what i talked about happen on a regular enough basis to make a note of the happening.

Apologies to Horseman, back in the 90s....

[Horseman]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 08 July 2020 - 03:29 AM, said:

What's this going to tell us? 12-man op under all circumstances?

Teamwork OP.

Aidan Crenshaw, on 08 July 2020 - 04:35 AM, said:

Horseman usually is not such a guy, so I'd like to read his thoughts why he posted that screenshot in this discussion.

Because the main basis for the complaint here is a premise that the side dropping more metal is automatically at an advantage, a claim which I find extremely suspect.

The value of any given mech on the field is a function of three main variables: the build it's running, the pilot's skill and their capacity for teamwork. The chassis is a fourth variable, but largely you can boil it down as acting as a multiplier to the build's performance.
Two different chassis (sometimes even variants of the same chassis) that weigh the same are rarely - if ever - going to be equal in performance.
In competent hands and working with a team, 50-55 ton mediums can easily make scrap metal of assaults twice their tonnage, a single light mech can carry harder than any of the team's half dozen assault mechs. Putting a random potato in an assault will not make them suddenly more capable than if they dropped in a medium or heavy (if they have a functional build in the first place... you know what I mean).

For all you know, any given Steiner Scout Lance is comprised of proto-potatoes who will die two minutes into the fight without breaking double-digit damage.
For all you know, the high-performing player in a meta build will not coordinate with the team in any way, costing you a mech on the frontlines.
For all you know, the otherwise capable and well-armed team will disperse and get wrecked one by one simple because they didn't bother to focus their fire, stay together or control positions which would give them an advantage.

So no, tonnage doesn't automatically make a mech more or less valuable to their team. It's proper utilization (first through the build, then through application of the mech on the battlefield) and the pilot responsible for it do.
And unfortunately, what I usually see is that a LOT of bad pilots gravitate towards assault mechs in mistaken belief that all that armor would make them survive longer - and then they die to the same elementary mistakes they were committing in lighter mechs before.

Edited by Horseman, 08 July 2020 - 11:17 AM.

[Black Caiman]

Though I find myself complaining about tonnage disparities from time to time, I also love the challenge that is presented for both parties. If youre a significantly heavier team then you have to contrive a strategy to utilize that weight to your advantage. Maybe that means you go defensive, or maybe you throw your weight around. If youre the lighter team do you blitz the other team with your speed and try to catch them off guard, or use your maneuverability to slow pick apart the lumbering beasts on the other team? Whichever side youre on, and whichever strategy you choose it takes skilled pilots utilizing teamwork to get the job done. If weight was the end all be all then everyone would run 100-tonners and this game would be drab, but we all know it just takes a few lights to totally throw an assault lance off their game.

[GARION26]

While I'm a newer player (four months playing and definitively a tier 5 casual) I agree with Horseman.

The issue here is the matchmaker has to balance multiple variables with a low population of players available to matchmake most of the time.
1. Group vs non Group
2. PSR
3. Tonnage

4. Acceptable wait time

PGI can assign different values to those different issues and 'how quickly the gates' open when a perfectly balanced match isn't found.

In a low population you can't perfectly match make on the first three and keep Wait Time low.

So should group vs non group be more important by tonnage? I think there are plenty of people who say yes on this forum.
Should PSR be more important then tonnage? I think there is good reason to think it should be as Horseman points out.
Would waiting 5 minutes for perfect tonnage matchup be acceptable to most players? (I don't think so)

But it's not all or nothing it's how much you weight each factor and how long you are willing to allow the matchmaker to spin before you just 'open the gates' and put teams together.

[Anomalocaris]

All I know was tonnage imbalance wasn't a thing until soup queue. Shouldn't be an issue now. PGI needs to fix it.

[Tommy Atkins]

OZHomerOZ, on 06 July 2020 - 01:57 PM, said:

So which is it?
No too bad or a serious problem?

I was being polite and decided to say "not too bad" instead of "the kind of game-breaking meltdown that we all feared."

[East Indy]

A straightforward mechanical fix is to allow groups only one 'Mech per weight class. It tones down tonnage with duos/trios and prevents under-tonning from groups who can't pull it off. It does also end theme groups but at some point I think we can all admit the whole point of those is to hotdog it and win big. Besides, Group Queue still exists.

PGI could also incentivize lighter 'Mechs through event specials. Quarantine put the most mediums on the field in years. What if CB and XP bonuses, with MC rewards, were also in the offing?

[Horseman]

East Indy, on 08 July 2020 - 02:21 PM, said:

Besides, Group Queue still exists.

It actually doesn't.

[OmniFail]

Groupthink on the behalf of PGI and the overall community added to the agendas pushed for by small special interest groups has resulted in a behavioral sink from which MWO cannot recover from.

The hard part is already over. We have passed the point of the spiritual death of MWO. It will only take a little while longer. We can make it.

The crash site is just ahead.

We just have to push just a little harder.