642 replies to this topic

[HimseIf]

Ouch. There's still an upward trend?
I must be super garbage player. I've dropped to tier 5 & given up hope of getting better. I used to be ok.
Match maker doesn't like potatos like me.

Edited by HimseIf, 16 July 2020 - 12:18 AM.

[D V Devnull]

Paul Inouye, on 15 July 2020 - 02:11 PM, said:

With that, I think we can take a quick moment to try adjusting some of the release valves in order to take advantage of player positioning.

As of this post, I will be making the maximum Tier separation in the match maker, 1 (one). This means a Tier 1 player should not see any other players outside of Tier 1 or Tier 2.

Now there are some caveates there. If a group of 3 Tier 1 players decides to add a Tier 3 or lower player to their group, there's nothing we can do about that. Next, the release valves still need to be in place but I'm going to be restricting the time it takes for them to kick in and how fast they release over time. For this first test, I'm going to set a hard restriction of 4 minutes before the release valves kick in.

As mentioned, we'll continue to monitor and adjust as needed. At the end of 3 months, we'll take a hard look at all numbers involved and discuss with you the next steps.

Out of curiosity, why didn't you try tightening the Tonnage Balance first, seeing as many stomps are being driven by a severe difference in Team Tonnage as of late? Last we knew before the PSR Reset, you had things severely tilted towards PSR Closeness over both Queue Time and Tonnage Balance, like a past image from you shows things to be. Did that change when you fired up the PSR Reset Patch into MWO's systems?

Also of note is these words from ...

OZHomerOZ, on 15 July 2020 - 11:57 PM, said:

But to do that the price is wait times increased for higher Tiers, which imo is fair considering the stompage they get to enjoy.

...as they happen to point out a major problem with trying to just focus on PSR for Queue Time, as your change will end up penalizing the Tier 4 & below players along with the Tier 2 & above players. In my opinion, that simply is not fair, as it means that players out BOTH ends just get left unable to play for longer periods. This also compounds in terms of impact for things like Loot Bag Events, where you have to get as many Match plays as possible to have any chance at being able to complete Challenges and earn the associated Rewards that come with them. If people are just left unable to play, then they'll end up giving up and quitting, which will ruin the Events as it will decrease the Player Base that remains.

Worse, they might even possibly opt to Uninstall MWO... Would you REALLY like this game to drop dead in that way, because you did the equivalent of asphyxiating it with a pillow coated with chloroform?

~Mr. D. V. "seeing a possible massive hole in things, and why it's a bad idea to concentrate on Tier only" Devnull

[General Solo]

crazytimes, on 15 July 2020 - 10:51 PM, said:

The saltiest people by far are those who were tier 1 before and have dropped into 4 or 5 post reset. I reckon a lot of them would be pulling the pin once they get to 4 and keep dropping. No reason for people going the other way to get salty.

Until the average wait time exceeds average match time anyhow. Then I'll get salty.

Salty people are customers too
If you gave them a feedback form they would tell you they are not happy.
Saltiness is a symtom of that.

But it does illustrate the importance of getting match maker right from inception of the game instead of its end and a warning of how mech pack sales numbers can make your eyes water and complacent enough to ignore problems such as MM for far too long.

Just image the player base if all those whose left due to match making dissatisfaction never did because MM was done right from the get go.

Be like World of Mechs with World of Battletech just round the corner.imo

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 July 2020 - 12:34 AM.

[Paul Meyers DEST]

The time for my average 650 (0 to 1400) damage matches in Sleipnir and Blood Asp are over and i slowly dive into tier 2 again and i think thats good. The increased wait times are ok while the matches are getting closer and atleast more challeging for me.

[General Solo]

D V Devnull, on 16 July 2020 - 12:27 AM, said:

Also of note is these words from ...
...as they happen to point out a major problem with trying to just focus on PSR for Queue Time, as your change will end up penalizing the Tier 4 & below players along with the Tier 2 & above players. In my opinion, that simply is not fair, as it means that players out BOTH ends just get left unable to play for longer periods. This also compounds in terms of impact for things like Loot Bag Events, where you have to get as many Match plays as possible to have any chance at being able to complete Challenges and earn the associated Rewards that come with them. If people are just left unable to play, then they'll end up giving up and quitting, which will ruin the Events as it will decrease the Player Base that remains.

Worse, they might even possibly opt to Uninstall MWO... Would you REALLY like this game to drop dead in that way, because you did the equivalent of asphyxiating it with a pillow coated with chloroform?

~Mr. D. V. "seeing a possible massive hole in things, and why it's a bad idea to concentrate on Tier only" Devnull

I agree and disagree.
Some of what you say is true, T4 and T5 will have to wail more like T1 and T2 due to them having smaller numbers untill they are filled with greater number with time.

However a huge difference is due to the tier lock out due to the delay of valves opening for 4 minutes those new players and anyone in tier 3 and below will encounter T1, T2 and skillgap less frequently than just before the lock out change.

This should make their journey to their equilibrium tier more tolerable.

[SimpleUkyo]

Is it possible that instead of waiting for 24 players to get a match, reduce it to 16 players when the queue time is like 3 mins already? If no matches still after 5 mins, reduce it to 12 players? in that way queue times for tiers outside 3 will be reduced.

Edit: For grouping, T1 should not be allowed to group with T3 below. T1 can only group with fellow T1 and T2. T2 can only group up with T1 and T3 but the composition of this group can only be either T1/T2 or T2/T3. If there is T1/T2/T3 in their group, they won't be allowed to launch. If their friends needs to play together, then they should try to grind their tier towards where their friend is at.

Edited by Inosuke Hashibara, 16 July 2020 - 03:33 AM.

[GweNTLeR]

D V Devnull, on 16 July 2020 - 12:27 AM, said:

...as they happen to point out a major problem with trying to just focus on PSR for Queue Time, as your change will end up penalizing the Tier 4 & below players along with the Tier 2 & above players. In my opinion, that simply is not fair, as it means that players out BOTH ends just get left unable to play for longer periods. This also compounds in terms of impact for things like Loot Bag Events, where you have to get as many Match plays as possible to have any chance at being able to complete Challenges and earn the associated Rewards that come with them. If people are just left unable to play, then they'll end up giving up and quitting, which will ruin the Events as it will decrease the Player Base that remains.

Worse, they might even possibly opt to Uninstall MWO... Would you REALLY like this game to drop dead in that way, because you did the equivalent of asphyxiating it with a pillow coated with chloroform? <_<

~Mr. D. V. "seeing a possible massive hole in things, and why it's a bad idea to concentrate on Tier only" Devnull

Well said.
The problem is actually even deeper - imagine a player willing to buy a new mech to play it.
He has to:
1) buy it (need cbills);
2) equip it (need alot of cbills);
3) skill it (cbills+exp);
Now, lets count how much time it would take to get a skilled mech for a T1/T5 player:
Let's suppose mech+equip costs ~15 mil. And that player earns 150k per match. It's 100 matches.
100*(5 min queue time + 5 min to match start + 5 min match time)=1500 minutes or 25 hours.
Let's say he always gets 2 SP per match.
(91 SP) /( 2 SP per match) * (5 min queue time + 5 min to match start +5 min match time)= 690 minutes or 11.5 hours.
Even with premium, that is A LOT of time.
Since most T1 players are old, they don't need to skill new mechs often.
But what about T5 players? A lot of them are new and need to skill mech often.
Now, who suffers more?

[Biomechtric]

GweNTLeR, on 16 July 2020 - 01:14 AM, said:

Well said.
The problem is actually even deeper - imagine a player willing to buy a new mech to play it.
He has to:
1) buy it (need cbills);
2) equip it (need alot of cbills);
3) skill it (cbills+exp);
Now, lets count how much time it would take to get a skilled mech for a T1/T5 player:
Let's suppose mech+equip costs ~15 mil. And that player earns 150k per match. It's 100 matches.
100*(5 min queue time + 5 min to match start + 5 min match time)=1500 minutes or 25 hours.
Let's say he always gets 2 SP per match.
(91 SP) /( 2 SP per match) * (5 min queue time + 5 min to match start +5 min match time)= 690 minutes or 11.5 hours.
Even with premium, that is A LOT of time.
Since most T1 players are old, they don't need to skill new mechs often.
But what about T5 players? A lot of them are new and need to skill mech often.
Now, who suffers more?

Nobody should suffer if the changes work simply because players will be up against others of the same skill level as themselves, this means that they will have more share of the available damage, kills etc as there will no longer be high skill players in their games essentially blocking the low skilled players being able to earn them themselves as they can't keep up with the better players.
The T1 players will probably suffer more as they will LOSE these gains, as there(in theory) will be no low skilled players left for them to 'farm'(not farming to them, just normal play) & hence their in game payments will decrease.
Sorry but if anything the opposite will happen & saying they are long term players with plenty of spare resources is a moot point as they deserve they same payouts for 'work done' as anyone else.

[General Solo]

D V Devnull, on 16 July 2020 - 12:27 AM, said:

Also of note is these words from ...

........ as your change will end up penalizing the Tier 4 & below players along with the Tier 2 & above players. In my opinion, that simply is not fair, as it means that players out BOTH ends just get left unable to play for longer periods. This also compounds in terms of impact for things like....

Why cannot they play for longer periods?

It just means they have to wait 4 minutes max for open valves between games until the less populated tiers grow in numbers over time.
People wait longer in FW, not a big deal imo if you get a better match eventually in the future maybe possibly, perhaps.
So you play 3 games in the 50 minutes you got before cooking dinner instead of 5.

But its the price of the change, hopely for the better.

For T1 and T2 its a 4 minute wait to stomp and if T4 and T5 its a 4 minutes wait to get stomped.
Which does reduce number of games played per hour if their are less than 24 players in your Tier ready and available online admittedly.

And getting stomped by skill gap is not conducive to earnings, events or otherwise regardless of games per hour. Skill gap must be fixed.

Less games per hour for less populated queues is the price of change untill player finish their slow or fast journey to find their level.

The most important aspect is if you get a game in under 4 minutes it will be a competitive affair as you will be playing your peers.

In the mean time we have to weather the storm.
The Tier lock out 4 minute till valves open delay will make the storm moar weather-able, when numbers allow.

If more T4 and T5 know about the lock out they may return, then the waiting will be a non issue for them as before the merge and PSR reset their numbers were the biggest and could easily support sub 4 minute of waiting games.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 July 2020 - 01:49 AM.

[General Solo]

Biomechtric, on 16 July 2020 - 01:29 AM, said:

Nobody should suffer if the changes work simply because players will be up against others of the same skill level as themselves, this means that they will have more share of the available damage, kills etc as there will no longer be high skill players in their games essentially blocking the low skilled players being able to earn them themselves as they can't keep up with the better players.
The T1 players will probably suffer more as they will LOSE these gains, as there(in theory) will be no low skilled players left for them to 'farm'(not farming to them, just normal play) & hence their in game payments will decrease.
Sorry but if anything the opposite will happen & saying they are long term players with plenty of spare resources is a moot point as they deserve they same payouts for 'work done' as anyone else.

Every one really knows that many of the "I just wanna playz wid moi friend/Brother/Sister/etc crowd" just come back for the seals.

[crazytimes]

OZHomerOZ, on 16 July 2020 - 01:38 AM, said:

Why cannot they play for longer periods?

It just means they have to wait 4 minutes max for open valves between games until the less populated tiers grow in numbers over time.
So you play 3 games in the 50 minutes you got before cooking dinner instead of 5.

I've seen all these arguements in a game I played many years ago. You know what it turns out most people's response to increasing wait times is? Moving to another game.

It doesn't matter what it improves or changes- I'd much rather sub optimal MM than wait times longer than average match time to even drop. I am not alone in this.

[GweNTLeR]

Biomechtric, on 16 July 2020 - 01:29 AM, said:

Nobody should suffer if the changes work simply because players will be up against others of the same skill level as themselves, this means that they will have more share of the available damage, kills etc as there will no longer be high skill players in their games essentially blocking the low skilled players being able to earn them themselves as they can't keep up with the better players.
The T1 players will probably suffer more as they will LOSE these gains, as there(in theory) will be no low skilled players left for them to 'farm'(not farming to them, just normal play) & hence their in game payments will decrease.
Sorry but if anything the opposite will happen & saying they are long term players with plenty of spare resources is a moot point as they deserve they same payouts for 'work done' as anyone else.

Well, that's the reason why I said that both T5 player and T1 player earns equally 150k every match in my example, so my point still stands.
To get a properly skilled mech you have to play
For a really
Long
Time.
Most of which would be loading or waiting in queue. That's a very interesting gameplay, isn't it?
I'm not saying the idea is bad - it just would hurt game a lot right now since the wait times would be insanely high.
For it to work players need to be distributed properly (normally) among the tiers. That's what PGI is probably trying to do with the lootbag event. However, I'm pretty sure that it won't be even close to enough.
For those who are T1/T5 already this event is nothing but joke, since all you would be doing is waiting instead of playing.

[General Solo]

Ooo Ooooh

What if : thought bubble

Make the wait 3 minutes then every 30 seconds after that open a valve that add's a one tier gap.

So with games formed in:

Up to 3 minutes - Players Same tier
3 minutes 30 seconds - Players one tier apart T1 plays T2 and T4 play T5, Tier 3 is big enough and likely wont need it.

4 minutes 00 seconds - Players two tier apart "T1, T2 and T3 play" and "T3, T4 and T5 play", Tier 3 is big enough and likely wont need it.

4 minutes 00 seconds - Players three tiers apart "T1, T2, T3 and T4 play" and "T2, T3, T4 and T5 play", Tier 3 is big enough and likely wont need it.

etc

Edit: due to greater numbers of T3 when they are used after the gates oops I mean valves are unlocked, due to their numbers they can be used as filler players to populate games for the less populous tiers.

So that functionally T1 and T2 will not meet T4 and T5 as long as population is above a certain threshold

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 July 2020 - 02:25 AM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Well, it's intresting to see how things develope. Currently my waiting times are equal to match fighting times, and I don't seem to be able to even change the server.(I would enable them all if I could)

[General Solo]

crazytimes, on 16 July 2020 - 02:00 AM, said:

I'd much rather sub optimal MM than wait times longer than average match time to even drop. I am not alone in this.

NO, its talk like that which got us in this mess in the first place! If you want to leave do so quietly, Quit posts are against the TOS.

Solo player could of told you that. They are more experienced at leaving the game due to skilgap

You and your friend have fun playing something else.

Solo players in solo queue were not alone, were in fact the majority, didn't stop PGI rekking it with a merge soup que bs crap.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 July 2020 - 02:11 AM.

[Carpenocturn]

Given the 6+min queues I'm going to wait till the weekend, see if it improves and if not leave.

I can play POE, GW2, and MTG without ticking my time away waiting for the late(Lol pun) implementation of an attempt at a MM system in MWO.

I'd rather not be hanging around for the game you have ruined for so many, me included. It's almost just an addiction I just need to kick and this could be just the reason to do so.

[General Solo]

So theirs something good about it?, the game.
Interesting!

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 July 2020 - 02:13 AM.

[RJF Volkodav]

Proposals:
1) Put new players and everyone not played 100 matches to T4-T5 (let everyone start from the lower tier not facing anyone able to climb up to T1-T2 fast enough)
2) Match groups by highest player tier value. I.e. if a group have any tier 1 player than its considered a T1. Or calculate group's average tier and use if for MM.

[SirHavan]

My suggestions:

1. Please make the release valve 2 min (reduce from 4 min) to reduce wait times

2. All groups should be considered T1 - I know this might not be in the spirit of the changes, but it will put groups with the best solo players and avoid the skew of calculating the average group tier.

[crazytimes]

SirHavan, on 16 July 2020 - 02:36 AM, said:

My suggestions:

1. Please make the release valve 2 min (reduce from 4 min) to reduce wait times

2. All groups should be considered T1 - I know this might not be in the spirit of the changes, but it will put groups with the best solo players and avoid the skew of calculating the average group tier.

Happy with point 1. Point 2... average tier would be better. For every elite group, there's a bunch of average groups and a bunch of absolute potatos. Punishing a tier 1 team by making 1/3 of their players tier 5s would not be a leap forward.