42 replies to this topic

[OneTeamPlayer]

Brauer, on 28 July 2020 - 10:56 AM, said:

What. I would be happy to show you how very wrong that is. Any dual RAC5 medium vs. my DHG Anni with an 80 point alpha. The Anni will obliterate the RAC5 mech.

No mech ever should have had an 80 point alpha. The set and forget nature of high damage is one of the greatest downfalls of enjoyably play and multiple roles other than "heaviest mech possible".

[Brauer]

OneTeamPlayer, on 28 July 2020 - 01:22 PM, said:

No mech ever should have had an 80 point alpha. The set and forget nature of high damage is one of the greatest downfalls of enjoyably play and multiple roles other than "heaviest mech possible".

That's a very arbitrary line to draw, and given it's using DHG and MPLs without any hardpoints inflation it'd be rather hard to design a sane system that prevents the DHG Anni. It has plenty of its own drawbacks.

[JediPanther]

Brauer, on 28 July 2020 - 02:38 PM, said:

That's a very arbitrary line to draw, and given it's using DHG and MPLs without any hardpoints inflation it'd be rather hard to design a sane system that prevents the DHG Anni. It has plenty of its own drawbacks.

Just give your ani one hgr only limit. Ghost heat on two with 90% heat spike. Works great on keeping those dual ac20 kgcs from their potential 40 point alpha.

[Brauer]

JediPanther, on 28 July 2020 - 03:14 PM, said:

Just give your ani one hgr only limit. Ghost heat on two with 90% heat spike. Works great on keeping those dual ac20 kgcs from their potential 40 point alpha.

Yep, no mech in lore runs DHG.

Oh, wait....

[OneTeamPlayer]

Brauer, on 28 July 2020 - 04:10 PM, said:

Yep, no mech in lore runs DHG.

Oh, wait....

Either we balance based totally on lore or these "but my lore when i want it" arguments go away.

Where was ghost heat mentioned in lore, again?

Mechs running zero head armor?

Lack of injuries?

Lack of progressive heat penalty?

If we want to balance based on lore let's balance based on lore.

If not, then let's stop randomly pulling up lore when someone points out (rightfully) that a lot of weapons systems are completely out of whack in terms of their limitations.

[General Solo]

JediPanther, on 28 July 2020 - 03:14 PM, said:

Just give your ani one hgr only limit. Ghost heat on two with 90% heat spike. Works great on keeping those dual ac20 kgcs from their potential 40 point alpha.

For goodness sake its an Annie
maybe don't stare especially in the frontal arc under 500m and use cover and stop being bad
And silence Paul and Russ maybe listening, don't want to give them more stupeed idea's.

[General Solo]

OneTeamPlayer, on 28 July 2020 - 05:44 PM, said:

Either we balance based totally on lore or these "but my lore when i want it" arguments go away.

Where was ghost heat mentioned in lore, again?

Mechs running zero head armor?

Lack of injuries?

Lack of progressive heat penalty?

If we want to balance based on lore let's balance based on lore.

If not, then let's stop randomly pulling up lore when someone points out (rightfully) that a lot of weapons systems are completely out of whack in terms of their limitations.

Its T1 there are no limitations except for the player!
Adapt
Or get rekt and adios from T1, as it should be.

And nothing to do with the game failing
Doubt people are leaving cause their not in T1 or for their experience in T1.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 28 July 2020 - 07:36 PM.

[OneTeamPlayer]

OZHomerOZ, on 28 July 2020 - 07:35 PM, said:

Its T1 there are no limitations except for the player!
Adapt
Or get rekt and adios from T1, as it should be.

And nothing to do with the game failing
Doubt people are leaving cause their not in T1 or for their experience in T1.

Dude adapting to T1 is brain dead easy, which is the same reason it's easy to arrive there and max out PSR.

It's also boring AF to some of us, which is why now there are people who are trying to leave as fast as humanly possible.

If you're enjoying current play in T1, bully for you- it's obviously made for players like you and i'm glad it exists to keep players who enjoy a certain playstyle together.

I don't like the playstyle at all so i'm leaving.

[Brauer]

OneTeamPlayer, on 28 July 2020 - 05:44 PM, said:

Either we balance based totally on lore or these "but my lore when i want it" arguments go away.

Where was ghost heat mentioned in lore, again?

Mechs running zero head armor?

Lack of injuries?

Lack of progressive heat penalty?

If we want to balance based on lore let's balance based on lore.

If not, then let's stop randomly pulling up lore when someone points out (rightfully) that a lot of weapons systems are completely out of whack in terms of their limitations.

The idea that a DHG+mpl Anni is totally OP is nonsense. It is relatively squishy due to the DHG crit explosions and it has both relatively short range and low speed, and it requires the player to have good positioning and aim. It's fine. There are places where balance should be tweaked, like either nerfing ATMs or finding a way to make them require some modicum of skill, but the DHG Anni is not OP.

I pointed to lore because this whole idea that alphas should be low is, from what I have seen, mostly based on lore. If it's not for you, fine. High alpha mechs, in most cases, have plenty of limitations of their own.

Edited by Brauer, 29 July 2020 - 05:30 AM.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Brauer, on 28 July 2020 - 08:28 PM, said:

The idea that a DHG+mpl Anni is totally OP is nonsense. It is relatively squishy due to the DHG crit explosions and it has both relatively short range and low speed, and it requires the player to have good positioning and aim. It's fine. There are places where balance should be tweaked, like either nerfing ATMs or finding a way to make them require some modicum of skill, but the DHG Anni is not OP.

I pointed to lore because this whole idea that alphas should be low is, from what I have seen, mostly are based on lore. If it's not for you, fine. High alpha mechs, in most cases, have plenty of limitations of their own.

Ludicrous alpha mechs are another bullet point in the list of items that diminished the fun and tactical options in this game. Why bring a light when a large selection of mech can literally instantly remove a leg?

Masochism, i guess.

That said, walking and circles and ending fights with one shot is some people's idea of great fun and high skill and by golly there's no reason for them not to enjoy possibilities the game offers.

It's not a player's responsibility to balance the game they play, that's on its developers.

Edited by OneTeamPlayer, 29 July 2020 - 05:16 AM.

[R Valentine]

OneTeamPlayer, on 29 July 2020 - 05:16 AM, said:

Ludicrous alpha mechs are another bullet point in the list of items that diminished the fun and tactical options in this game. Why bring a light when a large selection of mech can literally instantly remove a leg?

Masochism, i guess.

That said, walking and circles and ending fights with one shot is some people's idea of great fun and high skill and by golly there's no reason for them not to enjoy possibilities the game offers.

It's not a player's responsibility to balance the game they play, that's on its developers.

Even other light mechs can remove a leg in a single volley. That's the nature of playing light mechs. You trade the ability to absorb damage for the ability to avoid it entirely. If you fail at the latter you have nothing left to fall back on. Playing light mechs means the concession that every once in a while you will get one shot. Sometimes before you even contribute to a match.

Dual HGR+MPL Anni isn't even remotely OP. In fact, it's one of the easiest mechs to dismantle in a light. Extremely limited pitch can negate the HGR entirely and weapon explosions do half the work for you. If one happens to catch you out in the open then you didn't do it right. And the Annihilator is piss poor at walking in circles. In fact, it's one of the first victims of said play style.

[jss78]

I dunno, I'm not convinced map quality is crippling the game. Also, I'd say three of the more recent additions (Grim Plexus, Rubellite Oasis, Solaris City) play fine to me. Since I started playing 5+ years ago, it's definitely a gradual improvement in map quality.

IMO the game has fun core gameplay, decent enough balance, and a fair economy. And they revitalized the whole franchise with the new art assets.

As far as I'm concerned, PGI's major failing was in setting up game modes, and within them, balancing the needs of large groups, small groups and solos. They spent a LOT of resources on faction play which has, for practical purposes, been dead since about a year after launch. And Solaris was essential dead on arrival. The random queue however always was, and remains ... fun. They just failed to step beyond that.

However, I'm easy to please right now, having returned from a 2+ year near-complete hiatus. And I've been surprised to find out how fun the random queue is, when you're not already burnt out from months or more of continuous grind.

[BTGbullseye]

Brauer, on 28 July 2020 - 08:28 PM, said:

like either nerfing ATMs or finding a way to make them require some modicum of skill

Show me where the missiles touched you... Do you need to use a doll?

[Brauer]

BTGbullseye, on 29 July 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

Show me where the missiles touched you... Do you need to use a doll?

I don't usually eat very many missiles because I can use hard cover. That doesn't make it well balanced to have a 55 ton mech with a 108 point alpha that can get locks from a UAV, pop up and minimally expose, and dish out ridiculous damage. There's a reason that a lot of people trying to cheese match score run ATMs.

I don't think it's completely game-breaking, or think we need the kinds of "solutions" already proposed here, but something could be done to nerf that loadout a bit.

[BTGbullseye]

Brauer, on 29 July 2020 - 07:56 AM, said:

I don't usually eat very many missiles because I can use hard cover. That doesn't make it well balanced to have a 55 ton mech with a 108 point alpha that can get locks from a UAV, pop up and minimally expose, and dish out ridiculous damage. There's a reason that a lot of people trying to cheese match score run ATMs.

I don't think it's completely game-breaking, or think we need the kinds of "solutions" already proposed here, but something could be done to nerf that loadout a bit.

A 108 alpha build has about 5 shots total ammo, and that damage is always spread across you, and the terrain around you. If you are having trouble with them AT ALL, you need better positioning and maybe plan to shoot them when they pop up.

[Brauer]

BTGbullseye, on 29 July 2020 - 08:01 AM, said:

A 108 alpha build has about 5 shots total ammo, and that damage is always spread across you, and the terrain around you. If you are having trouble with them AT ALL, you need better positioning and maybe plan to shoot them when they pop up.

You don't seem to understand the game very well. 17.5 alphas EZ: https://mech.nav-alp...#e2ba8813_VGL-3
EDIT: That's 17.5 alphas pre-ammo skills.

Again, it is not that I specifically have trouble against ATM boats (I don't, in fact I could probably teach you a few things about countering these braindead atm boats), it is more that the build is out of balance when compared to other meta builds in the game.

Edited by Brauer, 29 July 2020 - 10:38 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

Brauer, on 29 July 2020 - 08:27 AM, said:

it is more that the build is out of balance when compared to other meta builds in the game.

Not really. To get that, it has to be in a narrow distance range, and it's also spreading, so simply twisting sideways on a narrow-front-to-back mech will significantly reduce damage. So basically, you have to be staring them down inside their optimal range, and have no cover, and it still doesn't hit as hard as most PPFLD alphas, since it spreads. The only thing ATMs and LRMs are good for right now are farming damage for matchscore against potatoes.

Even LBX is better due to narrower spread, faster fire, and higher crit rate.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 29 July 2020 - 04:50 PM.

[Brauer]

BTGbullseye, on 29 July 2020 - 04:48 PM, said:

Not really. To get that, it has to be in a narrow distance range, and it's also spreading, so simply twisting sideways on a narrow-front-to-back mech will significantly reduce damage. So basically, you have to be staring them down inside their optimal range, and have no cover, and it still doesn't hit as hard as most PPFLD alphas, since it spreads. The only thing ATMs and LRMs are good for right now are farming damage for matchscore against potatoes.

Even LBX is better due to narrower spread, faster fire, and higher crit rate.

Incorrect on a number of counts. The build does do best between about 200m and 400m, but that's where most of QP is fought. It works well in QP, hence people spamming ATMs to get high match scores, which is a known phenomenon.

Second you are completely off about how to minimize damage from them. The way to minimize damage from ATMs is to duck back into cover asap so the missiles harmlessly hit a rock. If you twist sideways the missiles still hit and it actually can make the ATM damage more efficient because it will concentrate even more on the leg and ST that you are presenting. It sounds a heck of a lot like you actually have no idea how ATMs function in the game.

[Nesutizale]

Besides cover getting close and under the min range also works quite well...if they only run ATMs that is and you can get there.
Often see people turning away from ATM mechs when they are just a few steps away from the minimal range.

I guess the reason is that the mechlab does a terrible job in telling people about weapons minimal range.

[martian]

jss78, on 29 July 2020 - 05:55 AM, said:

I dunno, I'm not convinced map quality is crippling the game. Also, I'd say three of the more recent additions (Grim Plexus, Rubellite Oasis, Solaris City) play fine to me. Since I started playing 5+ years ago, it's definitely a gradual improvement in map quality.

I agree that Grim Plexus and Rubellite Oasis are quite nice maps. All kinds of 'Mechs - brawlers, mid-range 'Mechs, snipers, etc - are viable there. Even LuRM-boats can contribute to the team effort more or less efficiently.

However, Solaris City in most cases negates said LRM-boats totally (yes, I know that there can be some lucky exceptions). Essentially, if it happens that your team deploys with one or two LRM-'Mechs, you are minus two 'Mechs right from the start. If it happens that those are Assaults, you are in a serious disadvantage.

jss78, on 29 July 2020 - 05:55 AM, said:

IMO the game has fun core gameplay, decent enough balance, and a fair economy. And they revitalized the whole franchise with the new art assets.

"New art assets": I am not quite sure that I understand what assets you are talking about.

jss78, on 29 July 2020 - 05:55 AM, said:

However, I'm easy to please right now, having returned from a 2+ year near-complete hiatus. And I've been surprised to find out how fun the random queue is, when you're not already burnt out from months or more of continuous grind.

Wait until you are farmed a few times in a row by some premade group or because your team had no Assaults at all, while the enemy team deployed four of them.
Maybe you will even combine both things in one game.